Dawn Service

[Sphynx]

I post a direct quote from the former Japanese PM and you say I’m “rewriting history”? Interesting take…..



The government needed the population onside, needed to play up the fear of invasion. It’s a myth in both world wars that the public was totally on the side of war, there was a lot of opposition (moreso in WW1 but there was also a lot of resistance to getting involved in a war that wasn’t on Australian soil esp from unions). The allies had broken the Japanese code and knew their capability to launch a physical invasion of Australia after Midway was non existent.



We have freedom of speech in this nation, and there’s a lot of soldiers who are willing to speak of the lies about why they were sent to war, even on days of remembrance.

Remembrance means remember correctly, even if it upsets some.

Ah yes, the notorious and well documented anti WW1 movement in Australia.

Where we had mass suicide rates for men who COULDNT go.

When 8.5% of the entire country went to war. When 40% of all adult men under 44 years of age served.

When 4.4% of the entire country was KIA or wounded , the equivalent to 1.1m in today’s terms

It’s an entire conspiracy…


Have a listen to yourself, classic delusional denialist.


Back to brainstorming more logic at your “I hate Australia” meetings on Tuesday nights.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I think next year we should all just have a grand old piss up and barbecue on Anzac Day. What's that, it's inappropriate because it's supposed to be a day of commemoration and respect rather than celebration? Huh, imagine if there was a group of people who felt that way about 26 January.

 

[schneebly111]

Ah yes, the notorious and well documented anti WW1 movement in Australia.

Where we had mass suicide rates for men who COULDNT go.

When 8.5% of the entire country went to war. When 40% of all adult men under 44 years of age served.

When 4.4% of the entire country was KIA or wounded , the equivalent to 1.1m in today’s terms

It’s an entire conspiracy…


Have a listen to yourself, classic delusional denialist.


Back to brainstorming more logic at your “I hate Australia” meetings on Tuesday nights.

Have you any idea of Australian history outside of the military history?

1916 and 1917 conscription referendums.

By 1916 enlistment had dried up because young men didn’t really have a desire to go to what was billed as a “quick victory” and be churned into mud in Belgium. Hence the government launched two referendum campaigns. It was also seen as a litmus test of public support for the war. Most of the ruling class, the wealthy, Anglo Protestants were in favour of it, against to were the trade unions, socialists and Irish Catholics.

The referendum failed. A year later they tried again with a watered down version and it again failed. There were riots and strikes. It led to a split in the ALP.

History is far more complex than a simple “all Aussies were on the side of good vs evil” champ……

 

[Gough]

Have you any idea of Australian history outside of the military history?

1916 and 1917 conscription referendums.

By 1916 enlistment had dried up because young men didn’t really have a desire to go to what was billed as a “quick victory” and be churned into mud in Belgium. Hence the government launched two referendum campaigns. It was also seen as a litmus test of public support for the war. Most of the ruling class, the wealthy, Anglo Protestants were in favour of it, against to were the trade unions, socialists and Irish Catholics.

The referendum failed. A year later they tried again with a watered down version and it again failed. There were riots and strikes. It led to a split in the ALP.

History is far more complex than a simple “all Aussies were on the side of good vs evil” champ……

I still think one of the best bits of writing for television that's ever been is the Branded episode of Dad's Army where Mr. Godfrey is shunned when they find out he was a conscientious objector during WWI only to find he served as a stretcher bearer and was awarded an MM.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

It's not a day that should ever be politicised.

Respect for First Nations culture shouldn't be politicised either, but here we are.

Maybe the first nations community could devise a different style WTC specifically for Anzac Day, a thank you, rather than "a welcome". As from what I understand of the issue, that is veterans main issue.

So you want people whose culture was destroyed and lands stolen to create a settler-colonial regime, to give a special thank you to those who fought for the modern day version of that same regime? Good grief. Your sense of entitlement is off the charts.

Besides which, there are First Nations people who have fought in the ADF. I guess they're not allowed to think a WTC is appropriate at a military commemoration? Perhaps you believe their First Nations identity should be subordinate to their military identity.

 

[Drought Break]

How many people booed out of thousands attending? It's a small but very unpleasant and vocal minority who are intent on spoiling it for everyone for their own racist ends.

How many don’t want the WTC at Anzac Day services but have the manners to not boo? Read social media and see how many don’t want it. Don’t go on what a small group of BF posters think.

 

[The Punter]

How many don’t want the WTC at Anzac Day services but have the manners to not boo? Read social media and see how many don’t want it. Don’t go on what a small group of BF posters think.

I mean, one small group or another small group...

To anyone who thinks a WTC should not be part of these ceremonies, feel free to clearly articulate why.

 

[Sphynx]

Respect for First Nations culture shouldn't be politicised either, but here we are.


So you want people whose culture was destroyed and lands stolen to create a settler-colonial regime, to give a special thank you to those who fought for the modern day version of that same regime? Good grief. Your sense of entitlement is off the charts.

Besides which, there are First Nations people who have fought in the ADF. I guess they're not allowed to think a WTC is appropriate at a military commemoration? Perhaps you believe their First Nations identity should be subordinate to their military identity.

Reducing soldiers to “tools of empire” on a remembrance day is exactly the politicisation you’re complaining about.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Reducing soldiers to “tools of empire” on a remembrance day is exactly the politicisation you’re complaining about.

No, that's objective fact.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Ah yes, the notorious and well documented anti WW1 movement in Australia.

Where we had mass suicide rates for men who COULDNT go.

When 8.5% of the entire country went to war. When 40% of all adult men under 44 years of age served.

When 4.4% of the entire country was KIA or wounded , the equivalent to 1.1m in today’s terms

It’s an entire conspiracy…


Have a listen to yourself, classic delusional denialist.


Back to brainstorming more logic at your “I hate Australia” meetings on Tuesday nights.

I think you need to read some Australian WWI history mate.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I think next year we should all just have a grand old piss up and barbecue on Anzac Day. What's that, it's inappropriate because it's supposed to be a day of commemoration and respect rather than celebration? Huh, imagine if there was a group of people who felt that way about 26 January.

Not to mention how at Anzac Days in the 70s and 80s, after the march it was straight to the pub or the Ari to get legless.

And as someone who used to work the bars in those decades, I mean legless.

In the tens of thousands, these were men well into middle or old age who still could not cope with having been servicemen as young men and what they’d seen and done. God knows what was waiting for the wife and kids when they got home.

 

[Frank Bunn]

The booing is completely unacceptable.

I however don't agree with the Welcome to Country at ANZAC day services either.

Veterans have been pretty vocal over the years as finding it offensive in these services, not all (before people jump down my throat), but there's been enough discussion on it that it's the one day that should fall in the "time and a place for it" common sense category. Whether those veterans that find it offensive really understand it's meaning, is another debate and largely irrelevant. It's their one day of the year for memorial and reflection. Most other issues should rightfully take a backseat to it.

It's something that has been asking for trouble for a long time given plenty of public commentary on it has taken place even outside of the ANZAC day period.

It's not a day that should ever be politicised.

Maybe the first nations community could devise a different style WTC specifically for Anzac Day, a thank you, rather than "a welcome". As from what I understand of the issue, that is veterans main issue.

As I said, any event where politicians and the media turn up will have been politicised. It was intended to be a time to commemorate veterans for their service. It has turned into a media circus about Australian heroes, Welcome to Country, a couple of blokes booing, BRS with his 20 medals.

 

[sherb]

Reducing soldiers to “tools of empire” on a remembrance day is exactly the politicisation you’re complaining about.

It doesn't seem like an unreasonable description of the poor Australian souls who sacrificed their lives in WW1 at least.

 

[sherb]

Have you any idea of Australian history outside of the military history?

1916 and 1917 conscription referendums.

By 1916 enlistment had dried up because young men didn’t really have a desire to go to what was billed as a “quick victory” and be churned into mud in Belgium. Hence the government launched two referendum campaigns. It was also seen as a litmus test of public support for the war. Most of the ruling class, the wealthy, Anglo Protestants were in favour of it, against to were the trade unions, socialists and Irish Catholics.

The referendum failed. A year later they tried again with a watered down version and it again failed. There were riots and strikes. It led to a split in the ALP.

History is far more complex than a simple “all Aussies were on the side of good vs evil” champ……

This relates back to my family's experience interestingly enough. I did a bit of research into my grandfather's history.

There was no shortage of volunteers signing up for WW1 at the outset, but my GF didn't sign up because he was in a reserved occupation (teacher). By 1916, as you said, with the body count piling up the numbers enlisting had dropped right off (understandably). Attempts to introduce conscription by the government to counter this drop off failed.

Anyway, God bless him, he signed up in 1916 at the age of around 30 and sailed that year. (I'm assuming the reserved occupation requirement was relaxed). He saw action on the front, survived and came back at the end of the war. I'm glad he went - he met my grandmother in England and she came out to Australia several years later to marry my grandfather.

I'm a bit hazy on the more specific details (can't be bothered digging it all up) but that's the general gist of it.

So - no WW1 = my grandfather doesn't fight there = he doesn't meet my grandmother = no me. And BigFooty just wouldn't have been the same.

 

[Sphynx]

I think you need to read some Australian WWI history mate.

Lol.

As I said, any event where politicians and the media turn up will have been politicised. It was intended to be a time to commemorate veterans for their service. It has turned into a media circus about Australian heroes, Welcome to Country, a couple of blokes booing, BRS with his 20 medals.

They are required to turn up.

If politicians don't turn up they would get crucified by the general public also.

As for BRS, "the circus" and his 20 medals. Despite what he has alleged to have done, he went to ANZAC day because he is a veteran first and foremost. He doesn't wear those decorations because he got them in a bargain bin at Vinnys and he's there for a publicity stunt.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Lol.

Well, your reading of it appears rather... selective to say the least.

 

[Sphynx]

Well, your reading of it appears rather... selective to say the least.

No, I think your interpretation of it is extremely selective.

What I've learned in the last few pages of rewriting history BF style:

• Anzacs are mostly liars regarding their motives for serving
• Likely abused their kids and wives en mass.
• We overcame a massive anti war movement to seemingly deploy almost half of all of age men in the country into WW1.
• The only people to ever defend Australia in ANY way are first nations people
• WW2 Vets who served in the Pacific were there for no real strategic defence of Australia.
• We apparently withdrew our entire European force back to Australia against the wishes of Britain, one of the most experienced and respected in the North African and Southern European campaign.......just because....
• The War in the pacific was a European resources conspiracy by the Dutch, English and French.
• Service in the Navy apparently doesn't count to the defence of this country.
• Service in the RAAF apparently doesn't count to the defence of this country. Any involvement by the RAAF in any conflict in history had no bearing on the defence of this country.
• Veterans have no right to an opinion on WTC because of Australia Day.
• Anzac day is a political event because politicians are there. So fair game and reasonable to "whatabout" issues of any other cultural problems to offset any reflection and purpose of the day.

Anything else we haven't covered in the last few pages?

Im sure the entire day is a Neo Nazi conspiracy is next on the bingo board..

 

[Drought Break]

Not to mention how at Anzac Days in the 70s and 80s, after the march it was straight to the pub or the Ari to get legless.

And as someone who used to work the bars in those decades, I mean legless.

In the tens of thousands, these were men well into middle or old age who still could not cope with having been servicemen as young men and what they’d seen and done. God knows what was waiting for the wife and kids when they got home.

Yep. Sent by politicians and senior brass on mission after mission and wonder why some of them break.

 

[Drought Break]

Lol.



They are required to turn up.

If politicians don't turn up they would get crucified by the general public also.

As for BRS, "the circus" and his 20 medals. Despite what he has alleged to have done, he went to ANZAC day because he is a veteran first and foremost. He doesn't wear those decorations because he got them in a bargain bin at Vinnys and he's there for a publicity stunt.

Most decorated soldier we have and someone has a dig at his amount of medals. Probably this same individual praises our AFP commissioner for her amount of medals which doubles the amount BRS has earned.

 

[Sphynx]

Most decorated soldier we have and someone has a dig at his amount of medals. Probably this same individual praises our AFP commissioner for her amount of medals which doubles the amount BRS has earned.

Good point. I missed:

- BRS and his media showboating for simply wearing check notes his commendations and service medals he was actually awarded.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

No, I think your interpretation of it is extremely selective.

What I've learned in the last few pages of rewriting history BF style:

• Anzacs are mostly liars regarding their motives for serving
• Likely abused their kids and wives en mass.
• We overcame a massive anti war movement to commit to deploy our forces into WW1.
• The only people to ever defend Australia in ANY way are first nations people
• WW2 Vets who served in the Pacific were there for no real strategic defence of Australia.
• We apparently withdrew our entire European force against the wishes of Britain, one of the most experienced and respected in the war........just because....
• The War in the pacific was a European resources conspiracy by the Dutch, English and French.
• Service in the Navy apparently doesn't count to the defence of this country.
• Service in the RAAF apparently doesn't count to the defence of this country. Any involvement by the RAAF in any conflict in history had no bearing on the defence of this country.
• Veterans have no right to an opinion on WTC because of Australia Day.
• Anzac day is a political event because politicians are there. So fair game and reasonable to "whatabout" issues of any other cultural problems to offset any reflection of the day.

Anything else we haven't covered in the last few pages?

Im sure the entire day is a Neo Nazi conspiracy is next on the bingo board..

Ridiculous nonsense. If you have a point, it's completely wiped by exaggeration like this.

Even though we diverge politically, I always thought you were a serious poster.

 

[Sphynx]

Ridiculous nonsense. If you have a point, it's completely wiped by exaggeration like this.

Even though we diverge politically, I always thought you were a serious poster.

If you write generalised bullshit against a group of people, expect to get called out.

Don't cry about it, don't be a hypocrite as you would be the first one in here if it was against any other cultural group.

And as someone who used to work the bars in those decades, I mean legless.

In the tens of thousands, these were men well into middle or old age who still could not cope with having been servicemen as young men and what they’d seen and done. God knows what was waiting for the wife and kids when they got home.

How would you like us to interpret this insinuation....?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

If you write generalised bullshit against a group of people, expect to get called out.

You're engaging in exactly the sort of caricaturing you're accusing your opponents of.

History is a contested area by definition. Read it a bit less selectively, and you might start to understand yours is not the only accepted viewpoint.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Yep. Sent by politicians and senior brass on mission after mission and wonder why some of them break.

It still happens to this day unfortunately.

Ive known my best mate for 22 years. The entire time we were in high school he wanted to be in the navy.

Once his daughter came along he wanted back home to Melbourne. Navy went nup.

In the time he served he ****ed his back up jumping in and other less than pleasant stuff.

Not being about to come home was basically the straw the broke the camels back.

I cant exactly say I've ever seen him wear his medals since leaving

 

[Sphynx]

You're engaging in exactly the sort of caricaturing you're accusing your opponents of.

History is a contested area by definition. Read it a bit less selectively, and you might start to understand yours is not the only accepted viewpoint.

Im calling out your assertions directly.

Not mine.