Dawn Service

[Carn The Berries]

All this talk of the VC is just muddying the waters, his act of gallantry has nothing to do with what he's been accused of.

The waters are going to be muddied regardless of the timing. My personal opinion (and I'm sure many would hold a similar view) is that it becomes almost impossible to allow BRS to retain his VC if he is found guilty of these charges (which essentially anoints him as a war hero, while he sits in prison as a war criminal).

Yes, technically, they are separate issues, but a lot of people aren't going to view it that way.

 

[schneebly111]

The amounts you are talking are 500-1000 sworn officers working this case. Which would be half of Vic Pols entire investigative services pool of resources as a comparison. What other operations or squads have the AFP cut and ditched for this case?

Did you pull that number out of your ass?

Transparency Portal

Transparency portal

www.transparency.gov.au

127 staff, and 2/3rds of that are support staff. Actual investigators (detectives) were drawn from AFP and stat3 police forces, so maybe only a dozen or so actual AFP detectives assigned to the case.

I personally think it should be a lot more.If you take a step back and look at this as a whole, this is essentially an investigation into a part of the Australian government running a mass killing gang conspiracy, with a minimum of 39 identified victims, and will easily be the biggest case of mass killing perpetrated by Australians since, well the last time Australian soldiers were let loose on the battlefield.

The investigation certainly deserves to be well funded and supported.

 

[schneebly111]

The waters are going to be muddied regardless of the timing. My personal opinion (and I'm sure many would hold a similar view) is that it becomes almost impossible to allow BRS to retain his VC if he is found guilty of these charges (which essentially anoints him as a war hero, while he sits in prison as a war criminal).

Well he won’t be able to physically keep in his cell will he, it’s a sharp metallic object.

 

[RedOrWhite]

3 main issues people have it with in my guess would be:

1. The name. "Why am I being welcomed to my own country when I live here?" is a common line I hear about it. When educated about country = land and that is welcoming you to this place we are gathering that tends to drop off

2. It feels like more unnecessary formalities. We have the WTC, thank you of sponsors, the anthem, introduction of VIPs etc etc and so depending on the event or occasion it feels more like fluff.

3. And the big one: a lot of people in Australia (and from what I have seen browsing other countries websites) don't like their first nations people. The dislike is generational.

I think you're pretty close to the mark on all three.

I'm someone who doesn't really care for pleasantries or formalities most of the time anyway. Especially religious ones. WTC's less so as they can be insightful and meaningful on occasions, albeit it's another case where less is more, whether that means do them in certain situations or wrap them up quicker.

 

[Sphynx]

Did you pull that number out of your ass?

Transparency Portal

Transparency portal

www.transparency.gov.au

127 staff, and 2/3rds of that are support staff. Actual investigators (detectives) were drawn from AFP and stat3 police forces, so maybe only a dozen or so actual AFP detectives assigned to the case.

I personally think it should be a lot more.If you take a step back and look at this as a whole, this is essentially an investigation into a part of the Australian government running a mass killing gang conspiracy, with a minimum of 39 identified victims, and will easily be the biggest case of mass killing perpetrated by Australians since, well the last time Australian soldiers were let loose on the battlefield.

The investigation certainly deserves to be well funded and supported.

The OSI from 2023-24.... now the other 10 years of reports during the investigations duration? How about the AFP rather than simply the OSI? As well as state detectives who all provided support, every state was involved apparently and lent resources, as well as the specific taskforce budgetary allocations?

It's not the information I have, from friends in the AFP.

The AFP is massively over budget with 400 staff cuts imminent to compensate for it.

Feel free to bookmark it and come back to me if you feel I'm talking bullshit.

There is no other precedent for this amount spent on so few cases over such a period of time. The US, Canada and UK have all had significant inquiries into War Crimes allegations by their soldiers which covered hundreds and thousands of cases.

All of which were wrapped up in terms of service. Why has this investigation taken 10 years ffs?

 

[schneebly111]

It's not the information I have, from friends in the AFP.

So you’ve got “mates” inside the AFP feeding you all this info you then share onto an AFL chat forum…….

Right…….

 

[Sphynx]

So you’ve got “mates” inside the AFP feeding you all this info you then share onto an AFL chat forum…….

Right…….

Again, feel free to call me out.

No longer at the AFP btw.

 

[RedOrWhite]

Even if that amount spent figure is true, I don't know either way, it doesn't mean BRS should get away with a slap on the wrist if the war crimes allegations are valid to the point they warrant a conviction via a trial and a jury.

 

[Sphynx]

Even if that amount spent figure is true, I don't know either way, it doesn't mean BRS should get away with a slap on the wrist if the war crimes allegations are valid to the point they warrant a conviction via a trial and a jury.

OF course he shouldn't get away with it.

Allocation of resources is an important discussion point, especially in this climate with everything going on.

UK and Canada both canned their task forces into similar issues, which reportedly cost less and investigated hundreds of people, not 2.....

They were able to complete investigations they did bring to the courts within actual service periods and a timely manner, not over a decade either.

 

[Frank Bunn]

A WTC is not political. Just because one side of politics cries like babies at mere mention of a WTC doesn’t make it ‘political’

Of course WTC is political. Mark Brown wasn't just making a friendly gesture. He was making a statement that you are on his land, his country.

WTC doesn't belong in a ceremony commemorating men who fought and died for their country, Australia.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Where's BrucefromBalnarring on this one?

He was always so impressively vigorous in defending the principle of innocent until proven guilty - but! - only so long as the person in question was rich and/or famous and/or high profile.

 

[schneebly111]

Of course WTC is political. Mark Brown wasn't just making a friendly gesture. He was making a statement that you are on his land, his country.

WTC doesn't belong in a ceremony commemorating men who fought and died for their country, Australia.

On the traditional land of his people, not specifically his.

Have you also asked to remove the Christian prayers from the Anzac services, the ones that were written in Palestine 2000 years ago?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

It's pretty simple. If veterans want to be respected, then they need to show respect.

From what I've seen, most of them do.

 

[RedOrWhite]

It's pretty simple. If veterans want to be respected, then they need to show respect.

From what I've seen, most of them do.

Yep, BRS is a rotten apple but holding him to account isn't disrespecting all diggers past and present.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Where's BrucefromBalnarring on this one?

He was always so impressively vigorous in defending the principle of innocent until proven guilty - but! - only so long as the person in question was rich and/or famous and/or high profile.

Not sure, so I Googled it.

About Bruce | Counsellor & Family Therapist Balnarring

Learn about Bruce’s 30 years of experience in counselling and mental health. Person-centred, trauma-informed and attachment-based approaches.

balnarringcounselling.com.au

 

[big_e]

BRS is broke

He gets a pension for life that is currently $117k+, his partner is employed and doing well enough to be driving an Audi Q7, and has enough money that he had bought a business class ticket to Spain and was looking at businesses to buy.

He's a lot of things, but short of cash is not one of them.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

3 main issues people have it with in my guess would be:

1. The name. "Why am I being welcomed to my own country when I live here?" is a common line I hear about it. When educated about country = land and that is welcoming you to this place we are gathering that tends to drop off

2. It feels like more unnecessary formalities. We have the WTC, thank you of sponsors, the anthem, introduction of VIPs etc etc and so depending on the event or occasion it feels more like fluff.

3. And the big one: a lot of people in Australia (and from what I have seen browsing other countries websites) don't like their first nations people. The dislike is generational.

The first two are just window dressing, the third is the real answer. Those people know full well they're not being welcomed to Australia, but to an ancient nation on the same land that predated Australia. They're just appearing ignorant to veil their dislike of First Nations people and culture.

I also don't hear much backlash against sponsors, because those people are far more accepting of selling out to big business than they are about First Nations culture even being mentioned.

 

[RedOrWhite]

OF course he shouldn't get away with it.

Allocation of resources is an important discussion point, especially in this climate with everything going on.

UK and Canada both canned their task forces into similar issues, which reportedly cost less and investigated hundreds of people, not 2.....

They were able to complete investigations they did bring to the courts within actual service periods and a timely manner, not over a decade either.

I agree that it's taken too long and has used up too many resources.

 

[Skeptikal]

I don't agree with the booing but

Of course you don't.

How many more friggin decades do Indigenous Australians and the rest of us have to put up with this 'I'm not a racist but..' bs.

Yes you bloody are. And time to stop hiding behind the flag.

We see you.

 

[RedOrWhite]

Of course you don't.

How many more friggin decades do Indigenous Australians and the rest of us have to put up with this 'I'm not a racist but..' bs.

Yes you bloody are. And time to stop hiding behind the flag.

We see you.

I agree with you on the issue, but can we leave the personal stuff out of it thanks.

 

[Skeptikal]

I agree with you on the issue, but can we leave the personal stuff out of it thanks.

No.

Because the 'issue' is 'personal stuff'.

Thanks.

 

[RedOrWhite]

No.

Because the 'issue' is 'personal stuff'.

Thanks.

If someone on the fence like that poster is, posts like yours are only gonna make them more adversarial, at least in my experience.

 

[Skeptikal]

If someone on the fence like that poster is, posts like yours are only gonna make them more adversarial.

I don't care. There is no 'fence'. The 'I don't support the booing but' excuse is nothing but a cover for polite racism. It's the latest iteration of what's been around for all my life.

How many more decades, centuries of saying nothing do you think Indigenous Australians have to endure the lack of respect for their history and culture before they are allowed to speak up and say - 'enough'?

Why is it them daring to demand respect gets people 'adversarial? Why is it that they must apologise for that response?

at least in my experience.

Take a moment to reflect that maybe your 'experience' is what blinds you from understanding the 'issue'.

I'll repost this to help you ..

 

[Rob R]

I don't agree with the booing but how can veterans who don't agree with WTC on ANZAC day protest about it? Choosing to not attend the dawn service is ineffectual. There's no leverage to be gained by abstaining on what has become a political issue.

We are a democracy not Russia or China so they can take it up with the RSL, local member, debate it on socia media, vote for someone who aligns with their views.

 

[Rob R]

3 main issues people have it with in my guess would be:

1. The name. "Why am I being welcomed to my own country when I live here?" is a common line I hear about it. When educated about country = land and that is welcoming you to this place we are gathering that tends to drop off

2. It feels like more unnecessary formalities. We have the WTC, thank you of sponsors, the anthem, introduction of VIPs etc etc and so depending on the event or occasion it feels more like fluff.

3. And the big one: a lot of people in Australia (and from what I have seen browsing other countries websites) don't like their first nations people. The dislike is generational.

There is a fourth one that i have heard which again is driven by generalisations, why are we paying for a welcome to country to be delivered, we had that mentioned in our company and addressed it by saying that we will not pay for a WTC but we do as we would for a priest provide transport and food as a guest.