Player Watch Dayne Beams

[sideswipe]

Thrashing this out a little further. Wouldn’t the player need to first be welcome at the club in order to do that?

IMO, there exists a potential outcome where you’re both right. Beams is willing to play on, but he’s not welcome at the club and in order to withhold that information from the general public we have an individual gaming the system...

It’s also worth remembering we have a precedent at our club of players exploiting the system from Beams first stint. Players were self reporting illicit substance use to avoid strikes. Coincidentally it was during a period where Beams has a 16 week quad injury

I make no claim to know anything about Beams and his situation. I was contending that the idea of "playing a mental illness card" when one isn't suffering a mental illness is a crazy idea (which might make it a paradox?) because generally speaking it doesn't run with a player's self-interest.

As you say, it might be a different story if other things are at play. But as an aside, if Beams wants to train/play/rehab, but he isn't welcome at the club, then unless Beams has breached his contract, he is entitled to every penny under his contract over the remaining term. But if the BF hints are true, maybe negotiations are under way.

Not suggesting there weren't self-reporters gaming the system, but not sure a 16 week quad injury supports a suspicion of that when at that time even a third strike would have only gotten you 12 games?

 

[McOrist]

Joe Jackson is a legend, Beams ain't mate.

Say it ain't so...

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Say it ain't so...

I don't think it's that big of a scandal.

 

[Scodog10]

I make no claim to know anything about Beams and his situation. I was contending that the idea of "playing a mental illness card" when one isn't suffering a mental illness is a crazy idea (which might make it a paradox?) because generally speaking it doesn't run with a player's self-interest.

As you say, it might be a different story if other things are at play. But as an aside, if Beams wants to train/play/rehab, but he isn't welcome at the club, then unless Beams has breached his contract, he is entitled to every penny under his contract over the remaining term. But if the BF hints are true, maybe negotiations are under way.

Not suggesting there weren't self-reporters gaming the system, but not sure a 16 week quad injury supports a suspicion of that when at that time even a third strike would have only gotten you 12 games?

Very few of us do. I’m simply presenting a scenario where you could both be right.

I also agree re his entitlement, however I would be surprised if there wasn’t something in AFL contracts about gross misconduct. Then the narrative becomes one of does a players mental well-being absolve them from a potentially serious transgression. It’s serious business no matter which angle you take which is why I doubt it will be resolved until the very last minute that the SSP can be utilised.

It’s a fact that there was players at Collingwood exploiting that loophole. I’m just kite flying and having a hypothetical discussion with Beams name in the mix. Although if that quad injury was a quad injury it is the most bizarre in league history, IMO.

 

[Gone Critical]

Re the emboldened - not so fast, bud. It depends on the express terms of the contract. And there are also implied conditions.

But as a fan, my view is that Collingwood is/should not be a sheltered workshop for inadequate personalities. Perform or get fired.

This guy is gaming [pun intended] the system.

I think you are mixing your opinions on what you would like v the reality of what is.

In the post you quoted I said if the medial people treating Beams deem he is not fit to undertake his normal duties then that assessment will hold no matter how inadequate his personality is. “Perform of get fired” will determine future contracts but it won’t terminate this contract if his obligations are filled.

Inapposite analogy.

My main point (not limited to a sporting context) is the difference between taking personal responsibility in dealing with the usual vicissitudes, imperfections and frailties which are part and parcel of conducting our lives in that short and brutal interval between birth and death - and the increasing tendency of seeking to avoid such personal responsibility under the guise of some medical/psychological get-out-of-jail card.

I do have a bit of time for this argument in general and we are heading down the path of no personal responsibility. Whether we like it or not Beam’s fitness to train will be determined by his mental fitness in this case and the way that is assessed is what it is.

What started my entry into this discussion was the idea that he shouldn’t be able to see out his 4 year contract if mental health issues prevented him playing. My point was if mental health issues as assessed by his doctors prevent him playing then he is fully entitled to see out his contract.

 

[Drought Break]

Thrashing this out a little further. Wouldn’t the player need to first be welcome at the club in order to do that?

IMO, there exists a potential outcome where you’re both right. Beams is willing to play on, but he’s not welcome at the club and in order to withhold that information from the general public we have an individual gaming the system...

It’s also worth remembering we have a precedent at our club of players exploiting the system from Beams first stint. Players were self reporting illicit substance use to avoid strikes. Coincidentally it was during a period where Beams has a 16 week quad injury

And shaved his head. Still remember an interview after a game when he first returned, shaved head and chewing more than viv Richards

 

[neilk]

Say it ain't so...

Not Shoeless Joe.

 

[Mukesh]

Not Shoeless Joe.

there are a few Joe Jackson's to choose from..

 

[BEEG]

Smoke there is fire look at the Hogan stuff.

 

[McOrist]

Not Shoeless Joe.

Build it and they will come.

 

[60 Yards Out]

Ah well, I guess we all see things differently. To me, it would be crazy (see!) for a player to "game the system" or "avoid personal responsibility" by somehow claiming (faking?) a mental health issue just so he could keep getting paid. It would surely be easier to turn up, train and play, meeting one's contractual obligations. For elite players, training and playing on would seem easier than stepping away from a club and dealing with all the difficulties and stigma of mental illness.

You know, things like being accused of gaming a system? Wouldn't it be easier just to play on, if one was capable of doing so?

Except that “... stepping away from a club” doesn’t seem to be the hardest thing to do.

 

[sideswipe]

Very few of us do. I’m simply presenting a scenario where you could both be right.

I also agree re his entitlement, however I would be surprised if there wasn’t something in AFL contracts about gross misconduct. Then the narrative becomes one of does a players mental well-being absolve them from a potentially serious transgression. It’s serious business no matter which angle you take which is why I doubt it will be resolved until the very last minute that the SSP can be utilised.

It’s a fact that there was players at Collingwood exploiting that loophole. I’m just kite flying and having a hypothetical discussion with Beams name in the mix. Although if that quad injury was a quad injury it is the most bizarre in league history, IMO.

Be surprised. As far as I recollect “gross misconduct” is some kind of court martial term. If there has been an off field problem with a player one of the afl Codes might catch them but the playing contract essentially goes back to the terms of service. Then there is always the “disrepute” arm. Which right now doesn’t seem to be in play.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Pie eyed]

Joe Jackson is a legend, Beams ain't mate.

"Shoe-less" Joe, "father of the artist formerly known as Michael" Joe or "Is she really going out with him" Joe?

 

[TW Sherrin]

I make no claim to know anything about Beams and his situation. I was contending that the idea of "playing a mental illness card" when one isn't suffering a mental illness is a crazy idea (which might make it a paradox?) because generally speaking it doesn't run with a player's self-interest.

As you say, it might be a different story if other things are at play. But as an aside, if Beams wants to train/play/rehab, but he isn't welcome at the club, then unless Beams has breached his contract, he is entitled to every penny under his contract over the remaining term. But if the BF hints are true, maybe negotiations are under way.

Not suggesting there weren't self-reporters gaming the system, but not sure a 16 week quad injury supports a suspicion of that when at that time even a third strike would have only gotten you 12 games?

There has to be a mental illness involved. There's no other excuse for what he has done. He'll never be welcome at the club ever.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

There has to be a mental illness involved. There's no other excuse for what he has done. He'll never be welcome at the club ever.

A heroin addict desperate for money steals from friends and relatives to feed a habit. The addict probably has mental health issues, but the problem for victims is that the thief's relationship with them is secondary to the habit, and this knowledge totally undermines their feelings and trust in that person. A close relative or best friend might persevere with the addict, but for most people, stealing from your work mates is unlikely to be excused.

 

[Thefly38]

Leaving Beams the person/player aside, would you feel the same way about someone with say a chronic knee injury which is career-ending (but the player does all his rehab), versus a career ended by mental health issues (where the player follows advice from his care team)?

could he retire with insurance payment then as his mental health has ended his ability to perform his job

 

[sideswipe]

could he retire with insurance payment then as his mental health has ended his ability to perform his job

Not as far as I am aware. The previous cba had provisions for a player to receive compensation for a career-ending injury suffered in a final contract year (Swan reportedly used this avenue) and the payment wouldn’t go to the salary cap. But now there is the player retirement fund. If he was unable to return he is still entitled to the remainder of his contractual payments, just as if he suffered a career-ending knee injury. Insurance like TPD doesn’t work in sports.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[kallangur pie]

If the club are waiting for Dayne Beams to retire himself they maybe waiting a while yet he has shown no sign of doing that.If he is able to do his art classes and now we hear sportman,s night,s then probably he could be training but again he has shown no interest in this.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

If the club are waiting for Dayne Beams to retire himself they maybe waiting a while yet he has shown no sign of doing that.If he is able to do his art classes and now we hear sportman,s night,s then probably he could be training but again he has shown no interest in this.

Usually people suffering depression find moving beyond the walls of their house an onerous task, let alone running art classes and doing guest appearances at sportsman's nights. Certainly that's been my experience of depression. So can we rule that out as a contributor to Beam's issues?

 

[kallangur pie]

I think it is wrong to in any way think of Swanny,s career ending foot injury to any of Beams problems.

I think the club should just bite the bullet on him and terminate his contract,as I see it if he is able to teach art and do sportsman,s night,s then he is capable of training you cannot have it both ways.

If there other issues stopping him from training then these are on him and the club should not have to foot any more monies to him,after all he will probably be making better money than most people from these things he is doing,enough,s enough,s.

 

[JB1975]

Usually people suffering depression find moving beyond the walls of their house an onerous task, let alone running art classes and doing guest appearances at sportsman's nights. Certainly that's been my experience of depression. So can we rule that out as contributor to Beam's issues?

I'm not speaking to Dayne's status, but my own shambolic relationship with depression hasn't prevented me from making and keeping various professional and social commitments. The depression might well be ongoing, but so is life, and so most sufferers find a way to (mostly) shuffle through.

That doesn't mean I'd be able to operate in an elite sporting environment (fine physique notwithstanding), and I've often cancelled or postponed my commitments because of mental immobilisation, but I guess my point is that functionality is still possible.

 

[sideswipe]

I think it is wrong to in any way think of Swanny,s career ending foot injury to any of Beams problems.

I think the club should just bite the bullet on him and terminate his contract,as I see it if he is able to teach art and do sportsman,s night,s then he is capable of training you cannot have it both ways.

If there other issues stopping him from training then these are on him and the club should not have to foot any more monies to him,after all he will probably be making better money than most people from these things he is doing,enough,s enough,s.

I was merely using that as an example of how a previous provision in the CBA worked. Don't get carried away.

 

[morax]

I think you are mixing your opinions on what you would like v the reality of what is.

In the post you quoted I said if the medial people treating Beams deem he is not fit to undertake his normal duties then that assessment will hold no matter how inadequate his personality is. “Perform of get fired” will determine future contracts but it won’t terminate this contract if his obligations are filled.

I do have a bit of time for this argument in general and we are heading down the path of no personal responsibility. Whether we like it or not Beam’s fitness to train will be determined by his mental fitness in this case and the way that is assessed is what it is.

What started my entry into this discussion was the idea that he shouldn’t be able to see out his 4 year contract if mental health issues prevented him playing. My point was if mental health issues as assessed by his doctors prevent him playing then he is fully entitled to see out his contract.

What do you think happens to a person who is suffering a mental illness but is afraid to come forward because of the workplace stigma that they're 'faking it' to get some time off ?

What happens when a person does seek help through a GP and psychologist, deemed to be at risk but struggles with community/workplace stigma that they're ' faking it' ?

I appreciate that a small minority may use the system to their advantage but the primary goal is treat each case on its merits and professionally.

Everyone here loves the club, they want to achieve the ultimate as often as possible. A lot see Beams as a scapegoat, tying up cap space and a list spot. I have also long accepted that Beams has conducted himself very poorly at the club, another reason why many question his motives. But Beams isn't the only person out there and i continue to worry that when it comes to the community stigma with mental health we are in taking a step backwards

 

[kallangur pie]

I'm not speaking to Dayne's status, but my own shambolic relationship with depression hasn't prevented me from making and keeping various professional and social commitments. The depression might well be ongoing, but so is life, and so most sufferers find a way to (mostly) shuffle through.

That doesn't mean I'd be able to operate in an elite sporting environment (fine physique notwithstanding), and I've often cancelled or postponed my commitments because of mental immobilisation, but I guess my point is that functionality is still possible.

If he can function okay at a sportsman,s night you would think he is able to train,you cannot have lt both ways,I wonder what he will say at the speaking date and I did note that memorabilia will be sold on the night so that maybe another source of income.

The longer this drags on the worse it becomes and surely people realize that he does not give a stuff about the "Mighty Pies",just show him the door and have done with it.

 

[morax]

Usually people suffering depression find moving beyond the walls of their house an onerous task, let alone running art classes and doing guest appearances at sportsman's nights. Certainly that's been my experience of depression. So can we rule that out as a contributor to Beam's issues?

Some people are at their happiest moment before attempting self harm. Its incredibly hard to spot.