Analysis Death is selling hope... but who is buying?

[St Kilda Death]

No doubt we look a rabble.
Extremely dissapointing season.
I was starting to wonder Saturday night (as i have several times already) if there will ever be light at the end of this dark tunnel that we have been travelling ever since the siren blew on the drawn grand final.

I heard an interesting fact as i watched a bit of sundays game. "The last time 2 sides lost by 100 in a round, was r23 2016."
Not that long ago.
The sides who got flogged: Richmond and melbourne.

2 years later nearly to the day and we are looking at 2 top 4 contenders, the tigs already with a cup, and likely to add another to the cabinet.

THE TIDE CAN TURN QUICKLY.
HANG IN THERE SAINTERS.

Further analysis:
Whats changed?
The dees side is relatively similar.
They havent really added anyone but Lewis, who is well past his prime, but brings experience/knowledge/leadership.
Other than that, Oliver of course is a gun and a big IN, but he was on the list at the time of the loss and had just been omitted, along with ANB, who played yesterday too.
A few other fringe players.
But mainly its the same group of players.

RICHMOND:
From the side that finished 13th on the ladder and got pantsed by 100pts.
9 changes.
Absolutely stellar trade period, saw them bring in Nank, Prestia and Caddy.
Graham through the draft.
The other 5, Butler, Costanza, Mcintosh, Broad and Townsend, were all already on their list, and had all played games during 2016.

So, despite the opinions of some meltdown specialists that we are 10 years off the pace and need to scrap our entire list.
Things can turn quickly with a few changes.

And more games experience to young players makes a big difference over a couple of years

 

[VDS66]

You might need to throw in a side resilience mate; )

 

[Murraj1966]

I don't like the Richmond comparison as they had established really strong players and Melbourne had their list settled the players just needed to grow into their skin.

We've got a lot more work to do list wise but the changes in assistant coaches will be good if we can get some strong contributors to join, as our inside 50's and ball movement in our forward half is deplorable. If the new additions can fix that and we can really crank up the scoreboard pressure when we're dominating teams then we could be on our way to some much better performances next year.

I can see improvement back to a 2017 level next year if we nail our first pick, trade out some deadwood and maybe get some experience in but these are all big asks so we'll just need to wait and see.

I'll be there in 2019 though, and I hope nobody else here will drop off.

 

[joop]

Richmond had played finals the previous 3 years before they fell down the ladder in 16. They also had a brownlow & coleman medalist in their side, along with multiple All-Australians. Where in gods name does the comparison with us come from????

 

[Kilroy]

I'll buy a small amount.

Got some cattle we'd happily trade for some magic beans if you know where we can get some.

 

[St Kilda Death]

Richmond had played finals the previous 3 years before they fell down the ladder in 16. They also had a brownlow & coleman medalist in their side, along with multiple All-Australians. Where in gods name does the comparison with us come from????

Comparison to a side that everyone thought was going nowhere.

Yes, you could argue they had made finals the previous 3 years, but lets be honest, they were only making up the numbers and hadn't actually won a final since 2001.

Come 2016 they had lost Maric, Newman, Foley, Kingy and Delidio from that "Finals" squad.

 

[St Kilda Death]

I'll buy a small amount.

Got some cattle we'd happily trade for some magic beans if you know where we can get some.

Not sure where we will find any.
But i dont think in 2016 rd23 anyone knew richmond had "magic beans" in that side, other than the obvious big 4.
Yet that side contained 13 premiership players and 2 emg.
And another 5 premiership players in the 2's that weekend.

 

[St Kilda Death]

I don't like the Richmond comparison as they had established really strong players and Melbourne had their list settled the players just needed to grow into their skin.

We've got a lot more work to do list wise but the changes in assistant coaches will be good if we can get some strong contributors to join, as our inside 50's and ball movement in our forward half is deplorable. If the new additions can fix that and we can really crank up the scoreboard pressure when we're dominating teams then we could be on our way to some much better performances next year.

I can see improvement back to a 2017 level next year if we nail our first pick, trade out some deadwood and maybe get some experience in but these are all big asks so we'll just need to wait and see.

I'll be there in 2019 though, and I hope nobody else here will drop off.

Ill be there.

Also cant underestimate the improvment that will come from players as they come into the 100+ game bracket.
We are very young right now.

 

[Saint Watto]

Comparison to a side that everyone thought was going nowhere.

Yes, you could argue they had made finals the previous 3 years, but lets be honest, they were only making up the numbers and hadn't actually won a final since 2001.

Come 2016 they had lost Maric, Newman, Foley, Kingy and Delidio from that "Finals" squad.

I thought the same as many(shows how good a judge I am) that the Tiges were going no where....losing 3 elims in a row to my way of thinking said that was as far as that list was going....WRONG....well sort of!

Then,

Coach evaluates/recalibrates himself.

3 players traded in(I didn't rate any of them....wrong again......actually,we were into Caddy big time a few years back but he chose the Cats)

A new head of Football....some say arguably the best in the business.

4 new assist coaches.

A new game plan which was devastatingly effective and still is.

They already had the best backman in the comp.....close to the best midfielder....a handy mid sized forward and a very good captain who had a crap 2016 like many of them.

With all of the above,it's not hard to see why they bounced back so strongly....you can't compare us to them in any universe.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Nice Megadeth ref

Punishments due imo

 

[BrutThough]

Nothing is ever as bad, or as good, as it seems.

 

[St Kilda Death]

I thought the same as many(shows how good a judge I am) that the Tiges were going no where....losing 3 elims in a row to my way of thinking said that was as far as that list was going....WRONG....well sort of!

Then,

Coach evaluates/recalibrates himself.

3 players traded in(I didn't rate any of them....wrong again......actually,we were into Caddy big time a few years back but he chose the Cats)

A new head of Football....some say arguably the best in the business.

4 new assist coaches.

A new game plan which was devastatingly effective and still is.

They already had the best backman in the comp.....close to the best midfielder....a handy mid sized forward and a very good captain who had a crap 2016 like many of them.

With all of the above,it's not hard to see why they bounced back so strongly....you can't compare us to them in any universe.

Im confused watto.
You said you thought they were going nowhere and their list was stuffed.
Many also thought the coach was no good.

Sounds a lot like what im hearing saints fans say about our team now.
Here lies the comparison.

Whos to say we dont trade in 3 players this offseason and the coach, with new assistants, reevalute our gameplan?

Not saying it will happen.
Just saying, it can.

More to the point is the comparison of teams full of young player who have not yet found consistency.

 

[Saint Watto]

Im confused watto.
You said you thought they were going nowhere and their list was stuffed.
Many also thought the coach was no good.

Sounds a lot like what im hearing saints fans say about our team now.
Here lies the comparison.

What I was saying St.Kilda Death that the Tiges looked dead in the water at the end of 2016....but the basis of a good side was still there that with several additions...….on and off the field turned into a flag winning side.

You never say never as you pointed out......but they had 4 star players to build around....at this point we really don't have any...…..I just don't see how we can compare us now to them at the end of 2016.

I'm still hopeful that our young guys will be good......with some additions as you say/improved systems etc.....you never know.

 

[Nutsngum]

Thing is, we know most of our players can find the ball and be effective players.

Out of our best 22 theres probably only a couple who have honestly never had "excellent" games under their belt. Whether that be 4goals and 30 disposals, a bag of 6 and 9 marks, etc etc..

So we know our players can all individually play, the issue is aligning them in such a way that they become consistent in approaching those highs. The people who are responsible for this all got sent their marching orders last week so whether we rise again or not is really going to be based on the coaching quality we bring in (and perhaps a steady leader).

 

[VDS66]

If we can bring in two good players and get our best back on the park, we're 1/4 of the way there IMO.

 

[majortinkle]

I'll buy a small amount.

Got some cattle we'd happily trade for some magic beans if you know where we can get some.

Hannah beans?

 

[Kilroy]

Hannah beans?

Mouncey? God no!

 

[bergholt]

Nice Megadeth ref

Punishments due imo

Holy wars very common on here

 

[theprospect]

She'll be right. Stop abusing players, coaches and the club and hang in there, it'll turn.

 

[TheEnsign]

Nice Megadeth ref

Punishments due imo

Came here to say this.

 

[saintbill]

You might need to throw in a side resilience mate; )

You seem to run with this line a fair bit, often directed at "young uns". Am I right in guessing you are a baby boomer?

Nothing against baby boomers at all, but I do find it interesting that they seem to pride themselves on their "resilience", and seem to delight in regularly passing judgement on the so called "cupcake" millenials.

I have no idea where this thinking comes from, as no generation in history has had an easier run than baby boomers. A historic 30 year asset boom, free university, cheap housing. I could go on.

When I was a financial planner during the financial crisis the lack of resilience from boomers was breathtaking. Meltdown city. FMD, surely you would think with all your "experience" you would be used to economic cycles by now.

For context I am gen X, and have managed reasonably large teams (20+), with many boomers and millenials. Personally I found the younger generation a lot easier to manage. They want a lot, but generally will perform if motivated, and contrary to believe it is not always about money. Also, if they are not happy at least they are happy to take action and leave.

In contrast, an unhappy boomer is a cancer to a business, as they will do nothing. Rather than seek employment elsewhere, they will just sit on there ass and whinge to anybody that will listen that their greatness is going unrecognised. The effort of slapping together a resume or jumping on Linkedin is often too much to bear.

I have a lot of friends around 40 who are business owners who share similar sentiments. Obviously some great boomer workers, but the bad ones are real bad and you just cant get rid of them.

The reality is there are cupcakes from all generations. I know you are half joking I just find the stereotyping of young people a bit rich coming from Boomers who have had such an incredible run.

With the world now saddled with debt and technology advances making job security more and more uncertain, the younger generation is going to have to be far more resiliant than yours ever was.

 

[True Believer]

Nice Megadeth ref

Punishments due imo

I was gonna say, I 'll buy in whenever there's a sweet reference to a metal classic.....

 

[VDS66]

You seem to run with this line a fair bit, often directed at "young uns". Am I right in guessing you are a baby boomer?

Nothing against baby boomers at all, but I do find it interesting that they seem to pride themselves on their "resilience", and seem to delight in regularly passing judgement on the so called "cupcake" millenials.

I have no idea where this thinking comes from, as no generation in history has had an easier run than baby boomers. A historic 30 year asset boom, free university, cheap housing. I could go on.

When I was a financial planner during the financial crisis the lack of resilience from boomers was breathtaking. Meltdown city. FMD, surely you would think with all your "experience" you would be used to economic cycles by now.

For context I am gen X, and have managed reasonably large teams (20+), with many boomers and millenials. Personally I found the younger generation a lot easier to manage. They want a lot, but generally will perform if motivated, and contrary to believe it is not always about money. Also, if they are not happy at least they are happy to take action and leave.

In contrast, an unhappy boomer is a cancer to a business, as they will do nothing. Rather than seek employment elsewhere, they will just sit on there ass and whinge to anybody that will listen that their greatness is going unrecognised. The effort of slapping together a resume or jumping on Linkedin is often too much to bear.

I have a lot of friends around 40 who are business owners who share similar sentiments. Obviously some great boomer workers, but the bad ones are real bad and you just cant get rid of them.

The reality is there are cupcakes from all generations. I know you are half joking I just find the stereotyping of young people a bit rich coming from Boomers who have had such an incredible run.

With the world now saddled with debt and technology advances making job security more and more uncertain, the younger generation is going to have to be far more resiliant than yours ever was.

Cheers for the lecture.

Not an old boomer. Had my fair share of adversity and struggle.

Believe it or not I actually agree with most of what you say. The boomers have caused more damage than good. Greediest generation of them all and leaving the mess for future generations to clean up.

Most of these views are in the random discussion thread. You should drop by occasionally.

Did my balls in the 91 recession. As you say, 30 years of growth and a nice property bubble to boot.

Anyway, back to my comment...

It was more about all supporters needing some resilience.

The parallels are with your comments if 30 years growth and how some supporters have only known good times, without the ultimate. Hence why they aren't coping as well.

My utmost respect goes out to all people who make a go of it regardless of age.

I guess from a personal standpoint, I have a very clear view of the world, and was havingbthis discussion with my son today...

Life throws up challenges. How you deal with them defines what kind of person you become.

They either consume you or they make you. I chose the latter 20 years ago.

Had to have the courage to make drastic changes and isolate certain people.

So I don't do the whole useless whinging thing very well. Doesn't solve anything and only adds to the problem.

Don't take it to personally. It's just my low tolerance level.

 

[cooperrules]

Love your optimism but were ****ed for another 3 to 5 years at least. Which doesnt bother me as long as the club concedes we need a reset and moves forward.

 

[cooperrules]

Or we could actually fix a number of list problems. Pick 4 Draft smith or rankin take FAs hall gaff hannebery or if we end up with pick 5 trade for Bonar get fas hall gaff hanners. Outside run leadership x factor. Flag in 2 years. Now thats some ******* optimism right there.