Review Dees v Tigers = the Good, the Bad & the Fugly

[Demonkings]

I might be wrong on this, but I haven’t noticed it being pointed out that the period in the fourth quarter where Richmond put us away coincided with Hibberd going off after he broke his nose for the second time. He was getting better the longer the game went on, but that fall on his face put paid to our chances. Our young players will hopefully learn a lot playing alongside a player of Hibberd’s calibre; about the intensity and commitment it takes to be a high quality afl player. A very good acquisition for our football club.

 

[demondavey]

Yes I’m serious. I saw a lot last night that suggests to me that we are getting our structures right, particularly in defence and how we set up behind the ball. I agree with you these things haven’t been right all season, but I think last night was a step in the right direction, and suggest to me the coaching staff have learned something in how to get our back 6 functioning as a unit again. Lever, Hibberd, Omac and Jetta all played as well or better than they have all year, and much closer to their potential. That’s encouraging.

So no, I don’t have my pitchfork out for Goodwin yet, as evidence suggests to me that our players are being coached well enough that issues with our set up have been addressed and improved in the last week. So I don’t see a need to be writing Goodwin off as a coach just yet. He could yet prove to have what it takes to be our next premiership coach, or he might not. But sitting 2-3, 5 rounds into his second season is way to early to be making a call on his coaching career either way. He’s only just begun and he must be afforded more time.

1. How we set up behind the ball? We don’t set up behind the ball, evidenced by Richmond transitioning from defence and forward to kick easy enough goals.

If you look at stoppages we get sucked into the contest, all the time. This means that if our opponent wins the ball, we don’t have anyone outside to contest. It happened about 10 times last night.

2. Our structures aren’t right. Our forward line is a debacle. We constantly push Hogan up the ground yet leave a small forward line open. Weidemann was picked last night but Pedersen should’ve been selected over him, or maybe both of them. Hogan needs to be a stay at home FF for a while.

Our defence continues to be shambolic. We will have 3 players contesting a situation and then no one down for the crumb. Lever wasn’t bad last night, but we constantly get exposed because we can’t zone properly and our lack of intelligence to stay out of a contest allows free run to our opposition.

3. Issues with our set up addressed? No, no they haven’t. If I am missing something obvious about our game plan, someone enlighten me.

 

[Jaras1]

What is the process? And.. What is Melbourne's brand? I don't mean to intrude and take the p*ss, but I think Bartel raised a good point during the week when he questioned whether Melbourne had a brand. I think Melbourne might need to reevaluate what their brand is, and whether or not that brand needs to go out the window. At the moment Melbourne's brand appears to be manic pressure and relentless energy for really short periods during matches. You could say the Melbourne brand is inconsistency - good first and third quarters but large periods of good or bad footy.

And the Saints brand? Just about worst list in the AFL.

 

[Jaras1]

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2018-04-24/goodwin-sees-effort-as-a-step-forward

Just have a look at this.

A step forward our coach believes. You know what our steps forward are? Shaving 19 points of our 67 point losing margin from last week. Apparently Richmond is a really good football team and that’s why we lost. Apparently our effort was better than last week and for 3/4 we impacted the contest.

That summises this club, we are happy with the effort but we still lost by 8 goals.

That’s what we are dealing with. It’s concerning.

He makes a few valid points though doesn’t he.

 

[Farm Boy]

And the Saints brand? Just about worst list in the AFL.

Don't be that guy.

 

[Saint12]

Sorry guys for jumping in but gee I've just seen Bernie Vince on the news joking and laughing it up, not sure if the MFC would see this as a good look.
Dees and saints are real good at shitting the bed Imo

 

[roacheee]

We have the talent to absolutely smash Richmond and most other teams, but the bus driver is asleep at the wheel

no you dont, you really dont
thats the diff b/w perception & reality
we thought we knew what a good team looked like in '01, '13,'14,15' and the first 5 rds of '17
we we're wrong, we didn't have a clue really
it didn't take wholesale list changes, but changes were made on and off field that lead to peaking in september
dont believe in never

 

[Demonkings]

1. How we set up behind the ball? We don’t set up behind the ball, evidenced by Richmond transitioning from defence and forward to kick easy enough goals.

If you look at stoppages we get sucked into the contest, all the time. This means that if our opponent wins the ball, we don’t have anyone outside to contest. It happened about 10 times last night.

2. Our structures aren’t right. Our forward line is a debacle. We constantly push Hogan up the ground yet leave a small forward line open. Weidemann was picked last night but Pedersen should’ve been selected over him, or maybe both of them. Hogan needs to be a stay at home FF for a while.

Our defence continues to be shambolic. We will have 3 players contesting a situation and then no one down for the crumb. Lever wasn’t bad last night, but we constantly get exposed because we can’t zone properly and our lack of intelligence to stay out of a contest allows free run to our opposition.

3. Issues with our set up addressed? No, no they haven’t. If I am missing something obvious about our game plan, someone enlighten me.

You’re coming off a bit overly dramatic, I didn’t say our structures are right, I said there were signs they were getting right and an improvement on last week, which they absolutely were. Last night we had Omac, Lever and even Josh Wagner taking intercept marks. Jetta and Hibberd were much more effective at neutralising contests and halting opposition forward thrusts. It was a big improvement compared to our defence against the hawks. I don’t think they kicked goals that easily, they only kicked 8 for the first 3 quarters.

So anyway, never said our structures were perfect they could do with a lot more improvement, I just identified an improvement in our backline that suggests that the coaching group are being more proactive in addressing our structural issues than people like yourself might be giving them credit for. I didn’t even touch on issues we have with our ball movement, our midfield or forward line, but to me getting the back 6 right, will play a big role in fixing issues further up the ground. Not saying they are there yet, they have a long way to go. Obviously at the start of the season the coaching panel had some misguided ideas about integrating Lever into our defence, playing Hogan in midfield etc. so as a team we’ve been set back a bit. But I’m not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water this early in the season, especially when there is evidence that things are being worked on and improved.

From here I still think it’s possible for this team to play finals and have a positive season. You might not. Agree to disagree then.

 

[rhaz]

no you dont, you really dont
thats the diff b/w perception & reality
we thought we knew what a good team looked like in '01, '13,'14,15' and the first 5 rds of '17
we we're wrong, we didn't have a clue really
it didn't take wholesale list changes, but changes were made on and off field that lead to peaking in september
dont believe in never

What

 

[roacheee]

What

comprehension not your strong suit eh?

 

[Frank Grimes]

The only solution to our problems as a losing cultured club is to get Al Clarkson! Roos was the only one who could right the wrongs and steer us back on course, but in a matter of 28 rounds, we look completely lost at sea again on and off the field. Most experts and football fans can bloody see we have a good list! But we are playing with zero confidence. It's not the players, the coaches are causing confusion and NFI! Al Clarkson could do wonders with this list! Throw everything we have at him or waste yet another generation of players. Zero confidence in Goodwin and his coaching cronies! WTF was Pederson doing out of this side tonight??? WTF was Brayshaw and Tyson out of Round 1? It cost us that game! Why is Harmes still in the side? Why bring Stretch back when he done f*** all at VFL this season? Nothing he does makes sense! Selection, game day, camps etc etc. List just goes on and on! He has a month to prove he can coach, or why waste anymore time with this guy? Throw a truckload of cash at Clarkson and a job at the club for eternity! He's the only man who can get us out of this 60 year losing culture! Clarkson or bust tbh!

I may be wrong, but it's not as simple as throwing money at coaches to come over these days. The coaches salary comes under the football department salary cap. Even if it is decided to use a large part of that cap on luring the coach, the prospective coach will know that will mean there will be less resources such as the additional and quality of his support staff will be diluted as a result.

To lure an existing coach from another club, it may have to be a situation where they are unhappy where they currently are and your club offering better opportunities or environment.

 

[demondavey]

You’re coming off a bit overly dramatic, I didn’t say our structures are right, I said there were signs they were getting right and an improvement on last week, which they absolutely were. Last night we had Omac, Lever and even Josh Wagner taking intercept marks. Jetta and Hibberd were much more effective at neutralising contests and halting opposition forward thrusts. It was a big improvement compared to our defence against the hawks. I don’t think they kicked goals that easily, they only kicked 8 for the first 3 quarters.

So anyway, never said our structures were perfect they could do with a lot more improvement, I just identified an improvement in our backline that suggests that the coaching group are being more proactive in addressing our structural issues than people like yourself might be giving them credit for. I didn’t even touch on issues we have with our ball movement, our midfield or forward line, but to me getting the back 6 right, will play a big role in fixing issues further up the ground. Not saying they are there yet, they have a long way to go. Obviously at the start of the season the coaching panel had some misguided ideas about integrating Lever into our defence, playing Hogan in midfield etc. so as a team we’ve been set back a bit. But I’m not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water this early in the season, especially when there is evidence that things are being worked on and improved.

From here I still think it’s possible for this team to play finals and have a positive season. You might not. Agree to disagree then.

I don’t think our season is over, but I think the next 4 weeks really defines where we go and quite frankly, we should be winning 3 of those minimum. If we can’t beat 3 of our next 4 opponents it’s season done.

 

[demondavey]

He makes a few valid points though doesn’t he.

Such as?

 

[booshboy]

well I can finally ******* relax, I've lost all expectation on this team. Hello darkness my old friend

I don't blame the players, this is a team that should be competing for a premiership. we have monumentally ****ed up with the Goodwin appointment- he is a terrible coach, I could go into the specifics but by now I think it's all implied.

If only we had two Jesse Hogans, thought he was tremendous last night- he is the player he promised to be in his first year.

Gawn was dominant, but again back to Goodwin on why we can't capitalize on that.

O-Mac solid.

Harmes eat a ******* dick campaigner. You aren't Dusty.

After the loss against Collingwood last year, I swore I never wanted to see Bernie in a MFC jumper again, he won me back over the past few rounds, but he is cooked.

Garlett, I'd hope he was injured if he's going to dish up such an insipid performance- that was hard to watch.

Goodwin, you've completely ****ed what should be a seriously good side. * you.

 

[BG32]

Why the * are saints flogs in here?? We are s**t but you guys are shitter now * off

 

[Cannon82]

no you dont, you really dont
thats the diff b/w perception & reality
we thought we knew what a good team looked like in '01, '13,'14,15' and the first 5 rds of '17
we we're wrong, we didn't have a clue really
it didn't take wholesale list changes, but changes were made on and off field that lead to peaking in september
dont believe in never

Another Tigers fan who is suddenly an expert on team lists, building culture and winning Premierships. Your team isn't that good; Richmond have done well to peak at a time when most other clubs are struggling. You lucked into the system you play because you literally had only one fit tall forward at the time. Spare us the armchair expertise.

 

[CTHORANGE]

You’re coming off a bit overly dramatic, I didn’t say our structures are right, I said there were signs they were getting right and an improvement on last week, which they absolutely were. Last night we had Omac, Lever and even Josh Wagner taking intercept marks. Jetta and Hibberd were much more effective at neutralising contests and halting opposition forward thrusts. It was a big improvement compared to our defence against the hawks. I don’t think they kicked goals that easily, they only kicked 8 for the first 3 quarters.

So anyway, never said our structures were perfect they could do with a lot more improvement, I just identified an improvement in our backline that suggests that the coaching group are being more proactive in addressing our structural issues than people like yourself might be giving them credit for. I didn’t even touch on issues we have with our ball movement, our midfield or forward line, but to me getting the back 6 right, will play a big role in fixing issues further up the ground. Not saying they are there yet, they have a long way to go. Obviously at the start of the season the coaching panel had some misguided ideas about integrating Lever into our defence, playing Hogan in midfield etc. so as a team we’ve been set back a bit. But I’m not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water this early in the season, especially when there is evidence that things are being worked on and improved.

From here I still think it’s possible for this team to play finals and have a positive season. You might not. Agree to disagree then.

I think what you say is pretty much all right and it make sense. But the problem is we've had 18 months (and more really) for Goodwin to implement the game style, yet it seems that we have gone several steps backwards this year and are again looking for small improvements each week to grab onto (that's the vibe I got from Goodwin's press conference). We should be well past that stage, we should have a team that consistently applies the game plan for four quarters every week, that doesn't mean win every week, but it means building trust and consistency in the way we play.

Of course we can still make the finals from here.

I'm hoping that our regression in the first month of the season will lead to a sudden leap forwards over the next month. It really is a club defining season this one.

 

[Pedantic]

I might be wrong on this, but I haven’t noticed it being pointed out that the period in the fourth quarter where Richmond put us away coincided with Hibberd going off after he broke his nose for the second time. He was getting better the longer the game went on, but that fall on his face put paid to our chances. Our young players will hopefully learn a lot playing alongside a player of Hibberd’s calibre; about the intensity and commitment it takes to be a high quality afl player. A very good acquisition for our football club.

Hibberd was almost back to his best I thought. Always runs straight at the footy.

Speaking of falling on his face, how about that bloke doing the hangers at quarter time with Robbo? I thought for a minute there he'd broken his neck and the club was going to have to pay him a few million bucks.

 

[Demonkings]

I think what you say is pretty much all right and it make sense. But the problem is we've had 18 months (and more really) for Goodwin to implement the game style, yet it seems that we have gone several steps backwards this year and are again looking for small improvements each week to grab onto (that's the vibe I got from Goodwin's press conference). We should be well past that stage, we should have a team that consistently applies the game plan for four quarters every week, that doesn't mean win every week, but it means building trust and consistency in the way we play.

Of course we can still make the finals from here.

I'm hoping that our regression in the first month of the season will lead to a sudden leap forwards over the next month. It really is a club defining season this one.

What I got from Goodwin’s press conference was he felt a bit of relief that our brand was restored for the first 3 and a bit quarters against the biggest test in the league at the moment. We embarrassed ourselves the week before against Hawthorn but I think last night confirmed for him that the hawks game was an aberration and not indicative of wider issues within the playing group. I don’t think he was happy, but he’s not really great at articulating himself, especially in front of the media.

I can’t understand why people feel more angsty this week than last after we played much better against far superior opposition. We beat North Melbourne by a similar margin 2 weeks ago, put posters on here are talking that down, while exaggerating the defeat last night. The thing that has surprised me most is the complete loss of faith that has occurred on this board off two defeats. Granted, one was completely unacceptable, but the club acknowledged that, but last night we were just outclassed by the premiers. It’s getting blown out of proportion on here.

 

[PerfectFooty]

What was the official attendance by the way? if anyone knows? I didn't see it...

 

[Topkent]

What was the official attendance by the way? if anyone knows? I didn't see it...

77k. Our fans are already dropping off.

 

[Klyntonius]

Good: The building blocks of a competitive team are there. Thought we only remained in the contest as long as we did on effort and talent.

Fugly: But effort and talent counts for nought without system and structure of which we have none. Under Dean Bailey we weren't terribly well skilled but a blind man could instantly see how we wanted to play (flawed as it was). We currently look more similar to the Neeld regime when we stood for nothing. Despite his suggestions the players were crystal clear about what was expected of them, they weren't. Not even close. Watching our complete lack of structure and fluency, I have no idea how Goodwin wants us to play and I get the feeling the players are the same.

 

[booshboy]

77k. Our fans are already dropping off.

really dissappinting crowd.

 

[Sir Hugh Percy]

no you dont, you really dont
thats the diff b/w perception & reality
we thought we knew what a good team looked like in '01, '13,'14,15' and the first 5 rds of '17
we we're wrong, we didn't have a clue really
it didn't take wholesale list changes, but changes were made on and off field that lead to peaking in september
dont believe in never

Not sure what your point was here. The Melbourne poster was saying that we had the talent there to be a very good side, but our structures, confidence, etc. are ****** because the coaching staff have lost the plot. You start by disagreeing that we do have the talent, but then go on to point out Richmond looked okay for a few years, but disappointed, then changed some things "on and off field" and voilà.

 

[sylvieMFC]

too many small nothing players who lack silk, grunt or the x factor:
- stretch
- kent
- salem (yet to step up)
- ANB
- Harmes (seriously - drop him!)
- Bugg
- Kennedy-harris

That's seven right there.

Selecting Weiderman above Pedo proves they have NFI.
Play Hogan and Petracca in the forward line.
Out backline has lost the plot.
Goodwin has no answers and is getting severely out-coached.

can Lever kick goals by any chance?