Analysis Defence - Kelly retired, McGrath to midfield. Where to from here?

[Lore]

McNeice could come in for McGrath to play a small forward lock-down role. He was solid in the two games
he played this year.

I don't watch much VFL, but I know he used to be on our VFL list and obviously did enough to get a rookie spot (well it's an extra spot anyway with the NextGen academy rules for CatB, but still)...

So VFL watchers.. what is he like? Is there the possibility that he holds that role as best 22, or is he more like cheap depth?

 

[eth-dog]

I don't watch much VFL, but I know he used to be on our VFL list and obviously did enough to get a rookie spot (well it's an extra spot anyway with the NextGen academy rules for CatB, but still)...

So VFL watchers.. what is he like? Is there the possibility that he hold that role as best 22, or is he more like cheap depth?

Eh. He's decent, has a neat kicking style but not sure he can stop the best small forwards in the league yet.

 

[MightyDon]

McNeice could come in for McGrath to play a small forward lock-down role. He was solid in the two games
he played this year.

Was impressed with the small amount we saw of McNiece

 

[Lore]

Scotty Lucas suggesting Gleeson will hold down Kelly's role in his season review. Which means someone else comes in to play medium rebound defender? Ridley...?

 

[BrunoV]

I think that Hartley and Redman are the keys to our defence next year.

Hurley, Gleeson, McKenna and, probably even, Baguley, is a solid base to build from but there are two and even three spots that there are question marks over.

Hartley is the player I'd most like to genuinely make it because Hurley has mostly struggled against big key forwards (which is no real surprise).

Redman is a smart player who knows the game and has a lot of the raw physical tools.

A player who I interests me is Thurlow from Geelong. Complete gas, 6'3 and about to break out before a knee reco. Doubt Cats want to let him go now that Mickie is finished but I'd ask the question.

 

[Yoda_]

I think that Hartley and Redman are the keys to our defence next year.

Hurley, Gleeson, McKenna and, probably even, Baguley, is a solid base to build from but there are two and even three spots that there are question marks over.

Hartley is the player I'd most like to genuinely make it because Hurley has mostly struggled against big key forwards (which is no real surprise).

Redman is a smart player who knows the game and has a lot of the raw physical tools.

A player who I interests me is Thurlow from Geelong. Complete gas, 6'3 and about to break out before a knee reco. Doubt Cats want to let him go now that Mickie is finished but I'd ask the question.

Get a feeling you are under estimating what McNeice could bring to the side

 

[yaco55]

In addition aren't we likely to pick up Max Fletcher next year? I'm not sure how highly he's rated right now - I got the impression maybe 2nd roundish but others would know far better than me.

Personally I haven't written off Brown as a defender either. He was being played ahead of Hartley earlier in the season and seems to work better with Ambrose than Hartley does. The ankle injury really set him back but if he's fit and firing next yearh who knows.

Agree - For me the three talls in defence are Hurley, Ambrose and Brown with Ridley stepping up in 2019 - I also have Redman replacing Kelly.

 

[Snake Charmer]

McNiece was very good in the few games he played. Would like to see more but realistically he's behind Bags who had a pretty decent season despite a fair amount of hate on here.

 

[BrunoV]

McNiece was very good in the few games he played. Would like to see more but realistically he's behind Bags who had a pretty decent season despite a fair amount of hate on here.

Why does it have to be 'hate'?

Our premier stopper is a mile behind a first year player in his chosen role.

I would have though that it's highlighted that small defenders who are actually good can do high quality jobs. That's what we should be aiming for, not average players who need other defender to bail them out.

 

[Snake Charmer]

Why does it have to be 'hate'?

Our premier stopper is a mile behind a first year player in his chosen role.

I would have though that it's highlighted that small defenders who are actually good can do high quality jobs. That's what we should be aiming for, not average players who need other defender to bail them out.

I'm guessing you're talking about Mcgrath? Because I wasn't.

Bags is our best option, still a better option than McNiece.

 

[BrunoV]

I'm guessing you're talking about Mcgrath? Because I wasn't.

Bags is our best option, still a better option than McNiece.

You were talking about Baguley hate which to me dismisses any criticism of him as having no rational basis.

That's he's our best option is no reason to want him to continue to be our best option unless he is good.

Not being or getting heated, just having a discussion, by the way.

 

[DapperJong]

How is McNeice's slow cooked pork neck going?

 

[Snake Charmer]

You were talking about Baguley hate which to me dismisses any criticism of him as having no rational basis.

That's he's our best option is no reason to want him to continue to be our best option unless he is good.

Not being or getting heated, just having a discussion, by the way.

I think Bags is somewhat a whipping boy on here. You can't have 22 super stars. How many lock down small defenders have been considered stars? Nick Smith is probably the best one and no one knows him. McGrath is too good to be one. I wouldn't be against him going back against the the crows and who ever else has super star small forwards. McNiece should be groomed for the role as I don't think Baguley will be around in the next 3-4 years. But at the moment he is our best small defender.


As for your comment about him needing to be bailed out, isn't that what most team defences are set on? Having gun intercepters/ spoilers like Hurley, Rampe, Lever ect. To help out the guys in 1 on 1 march ups?

I'm not against trying to upgrade a player like Baguley but don't think it is a pressing need. We need another rebounder more so IMO

 

[TheGrizz]

I think Bags is somewhat a whipping boy on here. You can't have 22 super stars. How many lock down small defenders have been considered stars? Nick Smith is probably the best one and no one knows him. McGrath is too good to be one. I wouldn't be against him going back against the the crows and who ever else has super star small forwards. McNiece should be groomed for the role as I don't think Baguley will be around in the next 3-4 years. But at the moment he is our best small defender.


As for your comment about him needing to be bailed out, isn't that what most team defences are set on? Having gun intercepters/ spoilers like Hurley, Rampe, Lever ect. To help out the guys in 1 on 1 march ups?

I'm not against trying to upgrade a player like Baguley but don't think it is a pressing need. We need another rebounder more so IMO

You cant compare Smith and Baguley.
Baguley is brave and does his best, but Nick Smith is an absolute gun. Genuine lock down small that doesnt need assistance, he is the best in the AFL at what he does.

Baguley tries but needs help on smalls who can play as marking options.
ie Elliot, Wingard and even Betts have all consistently towelled up Bags in the past.
I have time for bags but you cant compare him to smith.

 

[Snake Charmer]

You cant compare Smith and Baguley.
Baguley is brave and does his best, but Nick Smith is an absolute gun. Genuine lock down small that doesnt need assistance, he is the best in the AFL at what he does.

Baguley tries but needs help on smalls who can play as marking options.
ie Elliot, Wingard and even Betts have all consistently towelled up Bags in the past.
I have time for bags but you cant compare him to smith.

Wasn't meaning to compare the 2. Sorry If it reads that way

 

[Doss]

How is McNeice's slow cooked pork neck going?

This made me laugh way too hard.

 

[TheGrizz]

Wasn't meaning to compare the 2. Sorry If it reads that way

All good. Just thought that Bags doesnt stand a chance if we compare him to Smith.

It is worth noting that Smith doesnt offer a lot of rebound, and focuses mostly on shutting down the opposition.
This probably goes to your point that you made that you dont need 22 stars. He may not be flashy but he has a job to do and he happens to be the best in the comp at it (arguably then making him a star perhaps).

 

[Snake Charmer]

All good. Just thought that Bags doesnt stand a chance if we compare him to Smith.

It is worth noting that Smith doesnt offer a lot of rebound, and focuses mostly on shutting down the opposition.
This probably goes to your point that you made that you dont need 22 stars. He may not be flashy but he has a job to do and he happens to be the best in the comp at it (arguably then making him a star perhaps).

I think if McGrath spent his entire career in the back line he'd be better than smith at that role. Smith I thInk benefited from having such a deep midfield that he could focus on that position his entire career. We need McGrath to move up the ground and try to develop McNiece or another youngster into that role

 

[vast]

Id be willing to let Baguley work for his spot to speak. He gives his all no question and plays some good games but will get many goals kicked on him.

If McNeice is fit we could give him fist crack next year. How much worse could he be?

 

[calyam]

There is no doubting Baguley's effort but he is only an average small defender by league standards. He is one of a half dozen players who really need to be upgraded if we are going to make a jump from a borderline top 8 side to a top 4 side. And at 30 years, with relatively limited physical attributes, the end for him could come very quickly.

How we go about replacing him is the million dollar question. We know that McGrath can do a superior job but he's too talented to be wasted in a back-pocket. The upgrade might be McNiece if he can have a great pre-season or perhaps our 'small' defender ends up being a 'medium' defender - could Redman or even Ambrose play a lock-down role on smaller forwards? Everyone always talks about Morgan's running ability could he be a match for those faster forwards. I'd also be searching the state leagues for the best small defenders.

We should experiment a little in the pre-season - we have two of the best small forwards in the league - so can any defender on our list regularly get the better of Walla and Fantasia? We could find that we already have a player on the list who is capable of doing a better job than Baguley but we will never know until there is competition for his role.

 

[Lore]

Both players can be improved on. Not sure it's a Hartley vs Ambrose debate. Internally, the club rates Ambrose higher FWIW.

[Agreeing with you] They're completely different, aside from essentially playing as KPDs. They shouldn't be playing on the same opponents, as their best skills are suited to playing on different types of forwards. Not surprising that the club would rate Ambrose higher as he is a more complete player, though not a star. He mostly tackles and sometimes rebounds, and can run all day. There's always something to improve upon but he doesn't have any glaring deficiencies.

Hartley is much taller, plenty fit enough but doesn't necessarily play well on agile or quick talls. His main thing is spoiling a mark by punching the ball away, and he's a bit one dimensional in that sense, but his height and reach, and fairly long accurate kick are definitely things to work with. He seems to be an unfortunate combination of underdone and overexposed, but has the advantage of those things being easily fixed if given the appropriate support and opportunities (something he didn't have this year being forced into the seniors and having to focus on the team rather than developing his own game).

 

[MightyDon]

Is our biggest problem with defence being able to bring the ball out after a behind is scored? Apart from that they are pretty solid even with kelly out and McGrath moving to the mid field, if the mid field could win some bloody clearances and stop conceding so many inside 50's

 

[McKennabomber]

 

[Yoda_]

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[McKennabomber]

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