Deleted

[slippery crow]

Well as far as I can tell, we have two more trial games before the season starts. So here is what I'd like to see us do:
Game V Hawks:
Rest:
Doughty, Shirley, Bock, McLeod, Edwards, Walker (do we really need to see how they play or flog them before the season starts)

Give extended gametime to:
Petrenko (in defence), Moss (why isn't he playing given Martin is?) SMack (up forward), Dangerfield (obviously), Sloane, Cook, Jacky, Schmidt

Positions:

Moran on Roughhead (hey you have to learn how to play in defence, so might as well do it in trial games.)
Hentschell in defence (Can he play there now? - Lets find out before the season starts)
Stevens in defence (to help cover for Moran and Trent)
Petrenko in defence (playing the McLeod role)
Moss on Back flank.
Jacky and Cook as crumbing forwards
Tippett at full forward
SMack in FP
Sellar at CHF (all game - he needs time to find his spot)
Gill to play half game time as roaming forward


I would then use the game Vs Sydney to put our team back together properly. (i.e. bring in the experienced guys - but rest Goodwin). I just don't see the point of playing all of your experienced blokes in a game which means nothing, when we can better use the time to experiment with our young guys and positions.
It is a long season, why not use this time to rest up a few of our blokes?

My thoughts

Happy to persist with Moran in defence throughout the final 2 trial matches as we may be forced to cover Rutten in round 1 if the Truck does not get up.

However with only two trial matches left I do not believe we should continue to play players who are no chance to playing in the season opener.

All due respect to Sellar, their is no chance in Hell he will play CHF in round 1 so why lose the opportunity of playing Tippett, Walker, Gill and Hentchel together

We have had 3 weeks of experimentation, now it is time to settle the side down, develop some team chemistry and focus on those players that are a realistic shot for round 1, this means players like Sellar and Martin should be sent back to play full games in the sanfl trials

 

[Vader]

All this really shows is how important Rutten is to the structure of our team. We struggled in this position for a decade before he emerged in 2005, with Bassett & Hart pressganged into duty on the last line. These players were both AA defenders, yet even they struggled on occasion. Now, with Rutten injured, Moran has been thrust into the breach.

Moran is a reasonably good defender. It's what was expected of him when he was traded. What he isn't is the type of player who is suited to playing at FB.

Moran will almost certainly be given the 3rd defender role, previously held by Nathan Bassett. He'll also share the ruck duties with Maric and Tippett, much as he did in 2008. He's shown in the past to be more than adequate at performing this role and I would be very surprised if he doesn't play 20+ AFL games this year (assuming he remains injury free).

Don't like it? Get used to it.

 

[Porps_is_HOT_loz]

Why would you send him back to the SANFL to learn defence? Give the man a real education. That would probably be retrogressive to his development if anything. He wouldn't have to work as hard to stick to his opponent. You are guys are once bitten, twice shy.

He will never learn to become a real defender unless we send him to the SANFL.
Really, if he doesnt become a backman, I cant really see him slipping into our team.
Maybe as a forward, but I highly doubt it with Trent coming back and Walker on the rise and so on.
It will be for his own sake.

 

[WALL-e]

Moran is almost a lock for the Bassett role for the entire year.

Gallman is out for a while and Kite showed he's still a bit away from being AFL ready.

Moran, as Vader said, has shown his capabilities in this role.

He can also pinch hit in the ruck, and when doing so, is by far our most dangerous posesion getter of the bigs.

He finds quite a lot of footy for a guy with such limited experience. That being said, he's not our answer for a back up FB as his 1on1 defensive IQ is still low.

 

[Porps_is_HOT_loz]

Well as far as I can tell, we have two more trial games before the season starts. So here is what I'd like to see us do:
Game V Hawks:
Rest:
Doughty, Shirley, Bock, McLeod, Edwards, Walker (do we really need to see how they play or flog them before the season starts) I think resting Walker isnt the best idea. See how he goes, just dont give him alot of gametime.
I know the last thing we need is for him to be injured, but we cant just leave him out.
Resting all the older guys may not be the best idea, read the very below.

Give extended gametime to:
Petrenko (in defence), Moss (why isn't he playing given Martin is?) SMack (up forward), Dangerfield (obviously), Sloane, Cook, Jacky, Schmidt Agree with all this except Armstrong deserves a spot in here too.

Positions:

Moran on Roughhead (hey you have to learn how to play in defence, so might as well do it in trial games.) Might as well give it a go. Would like to see Stevens have a shot on him too.
Hentschell in defence (Can he play there now? - Lets find out before the season starts) Sounds good.
Stevens in defence (to help cover for Moran and Trent) Yes.
Petrenko in defence (playing the McLeod role) Would love to see him given some time up forward and as a midfielder.. although it will be good to see if we have a replacement for Macca.
Moss on Back flank. Yes.
Jacky and Cook as crumbing forwards Yes.
Tippett at full forward Yes.
SMack in FP Would love to see how he goes defence too; but most of the time up forward in the FP.
Sellar at CHF (all game - he needs time to find his spot) I liked him in the ruck too.
Gill to play half game time as roaming forward Make or break year for Gill, needs to really step up. Half game time sounds good.


I would then use the game Vs Sydney to put our team back together properly. (i.e. bring in the experienced guys - but rest Goodwin). I just don't see the point of playing all of your experienced blokes in a game which means nothing, when we can better use the time to experiment with our young guys and positions.
It is a long season, why not use this time to rest up a few of our blokes? It will leave the youngsters to do it all themselves which is 1) barley impossible (also reminder were playing the premiership side) and 2) it will give them no self esteem as they will probably get thrashed in the contests.

Replies in red.

 

[marvin]

All this really shows is how important Rutten is to the structure of our team. We struggled in this position for a decade before he emerged in 2005, with Bassett & Hart pressganged into duty on the last line. These players were both AA defenders, yet even they struggled on occasion. Now, with Rutten injured, Moran has been thrust into the breach.

Amen. Rutten is our most important player.

Moran will almost certainly be given the 3rd defender role, previously held by Nathan Bassett. He'll also share the ruck duties with Maric and Tippett, much as he did in 2008. He's shown in the past to be more than adequate at performing this role and I would be very surprised if he doesn't play 20+ AFL games this year (assuming he remains injury free).

I don't buy this argument, for 2 reasons.

Firstly, I'm not sure I've seen the evidence that he's more than adequate at performing this role. I may have missed something, and I'd love to be wrong.

Secondly, I'm absolutely not convinced that it's in Neil Craig's DNA to rotate his third tall defender through the ruck. If you look at his interchange patterns over the last few years, the regular members of the back 6 (Rutten, Bassett, Bock, McLeod, Johncock) spent very, very little time on the bench. There's essentially no rotation there.

Meanwhile, the midfield rotates like midfields do, and the forwards chop and change (whether it's Griffin/Maric/Tippett through the ruck to FF, Goodwin, Edwards, Burton, Porps, Vince, Thompson, Douglas through the middle and forward). When has Craig ever rotated anyone through defence, other than perhaps the runner of half back?

The only other player who rotates through defence is Scott Stevens, and that's largely related to matchups.

I just think it's too much a part of Craig's philosophy of stability at the back to see Moran, if he's the 3rd tall back, to do anything other than drift to the occasional boundary contest. The implication of Moran rotating through the ruck is that Craig is equally as happy with Maric / Griffin / Tippett as the 3rd tall defender, and I don't see that at all.

 

[jackster83]

How about we play Tippett at FB against the Hawks on Saturday?

Not that I want him to become a defender, but by playing against one of the best in the business (Roughead), he will learn a lot about how big forwards should be going about their game. The following game against Sydney, he can go back to playing up forward.

 

[Porps_is_HOT_loz]

How about we play Tippett at FB against the Hawks on Saturday?

Not that I want him to become a defender, but by playing against one of the best in the business (Roughead), he will learn a lot about how big forwards should be going about their game. The following game against Sydney, he can go back to playing up forward.

Strange thought, but it could work.

 

[KUNG FU]

He will never learn to become a real defender unless we send him to the SANFL.

Big statement. No evidence or argument.

What would the SANFL teach him that he can't learn at AFL level? As I have already stated there are a number of reasons why SANFL would slow or even hinder his development. The only time where it is better for a player's development to go back to SANFL is when their body is not up to it or if they have lost confidence. His body is definitely up to it (despite some minor pre-season niggles), so why not give him an opportunity to learn from the best.

 

[Porps_is_HOT_loz]

Big statement. No evidence or argument.

What would the SANFL teach him that he can't learn at AFL level? As I have already stated there are a number of reasons why SANFL would slow or even hinder his development. The only time where it is better for a player's development to go back to SANFL is when their body is not up to it or if they have lost confidence. His body is definitely up to it (despite some minor pre-season niggles), so why not give him an opportunity to learn from the best.

What i've bolded is 100% true, and obviously teaching at AFL level would be better then what the SANFL would teach him.
I personally think it would be a waste of time trying to make Moran into a defender at AFL level. No, im not saying that he wont have a chance to become a defender at the AFL level.
I think spending a few or even a couple of weeks in the SANFL might get his confidence up a bit and then bring him back and see how he goes.
I have said this before, but if Moran cant become a defender, I dont know where we will play him.

 

[crowsarethebest]

Stevens looks like he
ll be used up forward this year- he looks in great nick. This opens the door for Moran to be a 3rd tall in defense which I think he'll do a pretty good job at. I think he'll do well in a 3rd tall/loose man in defense type role.

 

[Vader]

I just think it's too much a part of Craig's philosophy of stability at the back to see Moran, if he's the 3rd tall back, to do anything other than drift to the occasional boundary contest. The implication of Moran rotating through the ruck is that Craig is equally as happy with Maric / Griffin / Tippett as the 3rd tall defender, and I don't see that at all.

I see him being used in similar roles to 2008. Last year he was our 3rd ruckman, behind Maric & Tippett. Like Stevens, he spent time both in defence and in the forward line. With Bassett gone, I see him spending more time in defence and less time in the forward line, while still doing a bit of relief rucking.

I'm not talking about him doing 30-40% of the ruckwork, more like 10-15% to give the other two a break.

I can certainly see where you're coming from though with the stability (lack of rotation) in our back half.

 

[KUNG FU]

What i've bolded is 100% true, and obviously teaching at AFL level would be better then what the SANFL would teach him.
I personally think it would be a waste of time trying to make Moran into a defender at AFL level. No, im not saying that he wont have a chance to become a defender at the AFL level.
I think spending a few or even a couple of weeks in the SANFL might get his confidence up a bit and then bring him back and see how he goes.
I have said this before, but if Moran cant become a defender, I dont know where we will play him.

I'd say demoting him after just a couple performances is gonna ruin his confidence more than help it. Back the bloke.

And as for what he can contribute - 12 kicks, 5 handballs, 7 marks, 4 goals, 1 behind, 1 tackle and 9 hit outs in a close win in the wet, in just his 3rd game for the club. He can play, just needs to time to get some consistency out of him.

 

[KUNG FU]

Stevens looks like he
ll be used up forward this year- he looks in great nick. This opens the door for Moran to be a 3rd tall in defense which I think he'll do a pretty good job at. I think he'll do well in a 3rd tall/loose man in defense type role.

The article of afc.com.au made it sound as if he'll still play in defence a lot, but the actual content of it made it sound like Stevens was doing the team thing, is keen to play forward, but will go back if that's what the club want from him. I've bleated on this for a while, I think he needs a real solid hit out down forward, let's really give him a shot, cos that 6 goal effort in a losing EF was huge.

 

[Porps_is_HOT_loz]

I'd say demoting him after just a couple performances is gonna ruin his confidence more than help it. Back the bloke.

And as for what he can contribute - 12 kicks, 5 handballs, 7 marks, 4 goals, 1 behind, 1 tackle and 9 hit outs in a close win in the wet, in just his 3rd game for the club. He can play, just needs to time to get some consistency out of him.

That is true, but I think sending him back to the SANFL will somehow be better for him.
Its hard to explain on the internet

 

[Alex99]

And as for what he can contribute - 12 kicks, 5 handballs, 7 marks, 4 goals, 1 behind, 1 tackle and 9 hit outs in a close win in the wet, in just his 3rd game for the club. He can play, just needs to time to get some consistency out of him.

That's why he should be played as a forward and Trent Hentschel should be played as a defende, well for season 2009 anyway. He has looked good in short periods of time this pre season but i would allow Trent to regain that confidence in his ablity and body before giving him added responsablity as a forward. IMO being a key forward is one of the toughest positions on the ground to play, why give him that added preasure at this time.

 

[Alex99]

That is true, but I think sending him back to the SANFL will somehow be better for him.

How? when West Adelaide will play him as a ruckman and if they don't he will be a key forward?

and anyway he is 200 cm and 100 kg and can run like a 6 footer - name me one SANFL forward that would challenge him. In the SANFL as a defender, he will not learn a thing.

 

[raboyle]

That would be Ahern St
Not sure if the entrance via grandstand will be open.

D'oh... bloody WhereIs maps. It looked like 'ahem'.

That entrance behind the GS was opened up for Centrals vs. Westies... surely they'll open all gates for this.

 

[Dandy_GO]

That's why he should be played as a forward and Trent Hentschel should be played as a defende, well for season 2009 anyway. He has looked good in short periods of time this pre season but i would allow Trent to regain that confidence in his ablity and body before giving him added responsablity as a forward. IMO being a key forward is one of the toughest positions on the ground to play, why give him that added preasure at this time.

I actually don't mind this idea, though it's more because I don't have much confidence in Moran as a backman than anything.
I'd prefer to see Hentschel up forward, but he's shown in the past that he can shut down quality forwards if needed. He won't produce his best right away as a forward I wouldn't imagine, so I don't think we'd be losing too much by playing him in defence until he regains his confidence. Trent, at the very least, probably hasn't lost his great footy brain.
Moran, on the other hand, doesn't strike me as a natural footballer like Trent and I don't trust him not to leak goals in defence. He looked better as a forward for mine. His height, speed, accurate kick and strong mark are all very handy attributes in a forward, and the combination of fast leading Moran and strong marking Tippett would be difficult to match up on for many defences. Put him on the half forward line and see what he can do. I'd prefer to see him playing a role where somebody else is worrying about him, rather than him having to worry about someone else (if that makes sense). Accountability doesn't strike me as a strength of his, and that's less of an issue (though still important, especially in the modern game) in the forwardlines.
Can always shuffle it around if it doesn't work, but it's a good plan I reckon

 

[Crow-mo]

No.

Yes, it is

 

[Crow-mo]

Our whole TEAM has an aversion to manning up, Moran isn't alone there!

OK, I smiled.

 

[Crow-mo]

Well as far as I can tell, we have two more trial games before the season starts. So here is what I'd like to see us do:
Game V Hawks:
Rest:
Doughty, Shirley, Bock, McLeod, Edwards, Walker (do we really need to see how they play or flog them before the season starts)

Give extended gametime to:
Petrenko (in defence), Moss (why isn't he playing given Martin is?) SMack (up forward), Dangerfield (obviously), Sloane, Cook, Jacky, Schmidt

Positions:

Moran on Roughhead (hey you have to learn how to play in defence, so might as well do it in trial games.)
Hentschell in defence (Can he play there now? - Lets find out before the season starts)
Stevens in defence (to help cover for Moran and Trent)
Petrenko in defence (playing the McLeod role)
Moss on Back flank.
Jacky and Cook as crumbing forwards
Tippett at full forward
SMack in FP
Sellar at CHF (all game - he needs time to find his spot)
Gill to play half game time as roaming forward


I would then use the game Vs Sydney to put our team back together properly. (i.e. bring in the experienced guys - but rest Goodwin). I just don't see the point of playing all of your experienced blokes in a game which means nothing, when we can better use the time to experiment with our young guys and positions.
It is a long season, why not use this time to rest up a few of our blokes?

I absolutely get your thinking here.

 

[Crow-mo]

Moran is a reasonably good defender. It's what was expected of him when he was traded.

why do you say that, he had not played a senior game in defense.

we certainly hoped he might be able to become a defender, but not based on the 2 senior games he played in and rucked.

Moran will almost certainly be given the 3rd defender role, previously held by Nathan Bassett. He'll also share the ruck duties with Maric and Tippett, much as he did in 2008. He's shown in the past to be more than adequate at performing this role and I would be very surprised if he doesn't play 20+ AFL games this year (assuming he remains injury free).

Don't like it? Get used to it.

we'll have to see.

 

[Crow-mo]

Moran, as Vader said, has shown his capabilities in this role.

when was this?

 

[Crow-mo]

Big statement. No evidence or argument.

What would the SANFL teach him that he can't learn at AFL level? As I have already stated there are a number of reasons why SANFL would slow or even hinder his development. The only time where it is better for a player's development to go back to SANFL is when their body is not up to it or if they have lost confidence. His body is definitely up to it (despite some minor pre-season niggles), so why not give him an opportunity to learn from the best.

we don't just play players so they can learn at AFL level.

arguably, in some cases maybe we should. but its not like this is something we do.