Mega Thread Delist/Trade/Draft Super-mega-ultrathread

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Matera92

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Masten was a woodhouse pick up - asa family friend. he has developed into an ok-good mid (as per my comment) I dont ythink he iasa No 3 pick.

Regardless my point is that we have a uniformity of vanilla mids (ok - good was my term). we don't have the role players - fast line breaking outside mid, big powerful pack breaking minds. etc. Thus while as individuals our mids re ok - we don't have the components required to win the contest - by bringing the max power (size and speed) to the point of the contest. we haven't drafted a midfield team - juts ok individuals.

Hindsight hero.

Masten dominated under 18's.
 

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the harry

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Masten was a woodhouse pick up - asa family friend. he has developed into an ok-good mid (as per my comment) I dont ythink he iasa No 3 pick.

Regardless my point is that we have a uniformity of vanilla mids (ok - good was my term). we don't have the role players - fast line breaking outside mid, big powerful pack breaking minds. etc. Thus while as individuals our mids re ok - we don't have the components required to win the contest - by bringing the max power (size and speed) to the point of the contest. we haven't drafted a midfield team - juts ok individuals.
Just because you see black and yellow doesn't mean it's a tiger. By that I mean, try to look beyond what you want to see and consider this: Masten was a gun IM as a junior, captained the U/18s for WA (iirc?) we had just lost Cousins and Judd went back home so drafting locally may have been something of a focal point (so options such as Dangerfield who were going to stay in Vic another year regardless of where he drafted may have been avoided)

So, we have a local boy, who follows the club, who is one of the best in his position/role in that draft year, which happens to be a position that has recently been vacated by two of our best ever players, and almost universally rated in the next group behind Cotch and Kruez.
 

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Our problems stem from the Woodhouse recruiting era. One where WC just gave jobs to the boys and mates. Woodhouse didn't have a clue and was limited in other ways - we have a plethora of ok-good mids who are all smallish, slow. We don't have the fast outside player or the power mid. Generally we are 8-10cm short across the board and weak in the core. We can only trade our way out of this structural problem and overlay this with improved drafting.

I think we started last year, but injuries are masking our improvement.
If you have structural problems with your list then trading won't achieve jack.
 

Eastern Rangers

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Bad recruiting has been an issue.

Lets have a look at some of those great picks we had and who we chose: Notte, Ebert, Swift, Weedon, Sheppard, Stevens, etc etc. All duds and most are no longer at the club. Recruiting has been shocking.
What type of hit rate do you expect? we haven't picked enough players or had the necessary turnover but our hit rate in the draft has been pretty decent.

Three of these players haven't produced, one of them because he walked away from football.

From Stevens we obtained Cripps and from Ebert we obtained McInnes.
 
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Just because you see black and yellow doesn't mean it's a tiger. By that I mean, try to look beyond what you want to see and consider this: Masten was a gun IM as a junior, captained the U/18s for WA (iirc?) we had just lost Cousins and Judd went back home so drafting locally may have been something of a focal point (so options such as Dangerfield who were going to stay in Vic another year regardless of where he drafted may have been avoided)

So, we have a local boy, who follows the club, who is one of the best in his position/role in that draft year, which happens to be a position that has recently been vacated by two of our best ever players, and almost universally rated in the next group behind Cotch and Kruez.
In a very average draft
 

sammyg77

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I'm glad you've narrowed it down to one facet. We don't having a speedy crumbing forward, are you saying we don't need one? If so you are kidding yourself pal.
No point having a speedy, crumbing forward when your forward line is always clogged with 30 players. Walters is always isolated one on one so he can do his work. We just don't structure up like that.

Case in point. First qtr against Hawthorn we had 21 inside 50's for 6 goals. Hawthorn had 9 inside 50's for 6 goals. Defensive structures are just not there. We get smashed on the rebound and we are just way too leaky.

A silky small forward ain't gonna fix our problems. Our ability to score is a strength. Our ability to stop the opposition scoring so easily is our biggest issue.
 

ziad

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Just because you see black and yellow doesn't mean it's a tiger. By that I mean, try to look beyond what you want to see and consider this: Masten was a gun IM as a junior, captained the U/18s for WA (iirc?) we had just lost Cousins and Judd went back home so drafting locally may have been something of a focal point (so options such as Dangerfield who were going to stay in Vic another year regardless of where he drafted may have been avoided)

So, we have a local boy, who follows the club, who is one of the best in his position/role in that draft year, which happens to be a position that has recently been vacated by two of our best ever players, and almost universally rated in the next group behind Cotch and Kruez.
And with foresight it should have been identified and a player of Mastens size will not be a great inside mod at AFL level. This is just the sort of thinking I was getting to.

And the fetish with 'local lads' is a cancer. get the best and work to keep them.
 

the harry

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And with foresight it should have been identified and a player of Mastens size will not be a great inside mod at AFL level. This is just the sort of thinking I was getting to.

And the fetish with 'local lads' is a cancer. get the best and work to keep them.
I'm sorry, I couldn't see where in your post your nominated anyone near as highly rated that you would have been able to predict might bulk up more? Don't fotget that Masten is being played as an OM because his footskills are better than most, not necessarily because he's too small.

As for the local lads comment, sure you can say that now, but Judd had just left. It's a little understandable.
 
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Which 6 players do you propose we delist? At this stage I would be looking at...

Mitch Brown - trade
Mark Nicoski
Andrew Embley - retire
Adam Selwood - retire
Brad Dick
Dalziel/Hams

I tend to agree with the majority of that list Masto, although I would include Dalziell and Hams, not or. Both are OK players, but not the type we need IMO and Dalziell may have got himself a contract extension by adding a string or two to his bow.

I would look at trying to keep Brown and I think Smith may be the extra moved out of there, by his request. If Glass plays on I reckon it will be a decision of Schofield or Brown, not sure we can keep both satisfied. Butler has underwhelmed me so far this year, so it may be time for us to cut ties.

I couldn't understand why we elevated Dick last year if we weren't intending to use him and we didn't need to elevate him. Cale Morton is another we could add, as you said.

So I could probably come up with 6 easily and a few more, but is this the draft to cut so many is the other question that needs to be taken into consideration.
 

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Masten was a woodhouse pick up - asa family friend. he has developed into an ok-good mid (as per my comment) I dont ythink he iasa No 3 pick.

Regardless my point is that we have a uniformity of vanilla mids (ok - good was my term). we don't have the role players - fast line breaking outside mid, big powerful pack breaking minds. etc. Thus while as individuals our mids re ok - we don't have the components required to win the contest - by bringing the max power (size and speed) to the point of the contest. we haven't drafted a midfield team - juts ok individuals.

ziad Masten was not a Woodhouse pick, he stepped out of the decision making process because of the fact he was the god father. Masten was U18 WA captain and AA and had a good skillset. He's not playing IM at the moment because we choose to play Priddis in that position, nothing to do with not bulking up, IMO.
However, outside of all that we really wanted Cotchin, it's fairly well documented, and that's why we were trying to pressure Carlton into number 1 pick for Judd, or prepared to take Richmond's 2 for him.

I don't disagree that I thought some of the Woodhouse era drafting was strange, however, every club does it because the recruiters have people who like certain skillsets. For example, if I was recruiting the whole team would be IM's, because I love players who put their head over the ball and we'd have different problems, as in no one to get the ball out to. ;):D
 

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Hard to top that. If the mix of players is wrong, outside of illegal medical practices, there is only one way - trading. A reliance on the draft is too long term and as I stated would only be an overlay.
An overlay? more like you'd kill your depth to pursue quality, ending short term chances of a flag and making a substantial blow to your long term flag opportunities in the process.
 

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Well we were very keen on Rich but Naitanui was too good to pass on. I feel that we have a better chance at landing Conca with Richmond now facing salary cap issues with MArtin and Riewaldt, something has to give.

Without actually knowing Rich he seems to be settled and reasonably happy at the Lions. Saying that we do need a bigger bodied mid with good foot skills. I'd offer Rich more $$ and he'd cost more at the trade table.

What's you thoughts on our rookies Turbridge, McGovern and Sinclair?

Turbridge looks like a pacey big inside mid and McGovern we need to upgrade or someone will steal him, Freo most likely.
Tunbridge most in gun of the 3 - however he's the one still to really fill into his body
 

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let me get this right, we rebuilt in record time and people think drafting was bad, players are bad, coaches are bad?

people still cant decide between rich and conca on here. you would think that is proof enough that drafting isnt a 100% science. you cannot calculate desire and amount of improvement to come. everyone who gets drafted can play football. noone drafts anyone who they dont think can make it.

our hit rate is no better or worse than anyone else. if you want judge drafting based on who we missed out on, then its going to be a very unhappy life.

no doubt i would have liked stevens and ebert to be superstars, but thats based on my expectation and not on drafting standards nor reality.

besides, how the hell can you adjuge how a 17 year old will turn out. only certainties with a handful of players each year.
 

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Bad recruiting has been an issue.

Lets have a look at some of those great picks we had and who we chose: Notte, Ebert, Swift, Weedon, Sheppard, Stevens, etc etc. All duds and most are no longer at the club. Recruiting has been shocking.

great picks? do all top 30 picks turn out stars in your mind?

ebert is a solid afl player. why do you call him a dud?

sheppard is still at the club.

notte had issues in his head. recruiters cannot fortel whether a player will choose to work, whether he will like afl demands. nottes issue wasnt ability...

stevens has played few good games this year. wouldnt call him a failure. i am not sure what you expect from a pick in 20s?
 

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Well we were very keen on Rich but Naitanui was too good to pass on. I feel that we have a better chance at landing Conca with Richmond now facing salary cap issues with MArtin and Riewaldt, something has to give.

Without actually knowing Rich he seems to be settled and reasonably happy at the Lions. Saying that we do need a bigger bodied mid with good foot skills. I'd offer Rich more $$ and he'd cost more at the trade table.

What's you thoughts on our rookies Turbridge, McGovern and Sinclair?

Turbridge looks like a pacey big inside mid and McGovern we need to upgrade or someone will steal him, Freo most likely.

tunbridge is an inside mid? thats a new one. well if he is and based on his posession rate in wafl, he wont make it. mids who cant find it in wafl cant find it in afl. and dont give me this whole he played well on weekend rubbish. inside mid? actually i dont even think you know what attributes you need to be an inside mid. did you ask yourself does tunbridge have great hands for example? hell of a lot more important than being pacey. or do you just want players who are more pleasing to the eye?

i am not convinced mcgovern can make it. or maybe he is a Joe Daniher like superstar we are keeping in wafl, just because we can. more than likely he is closer to Maister than anything. perhaps we should give him a game in afl. apparently (according to some posters), being shithouse in wafl shouldnt stop you from deserving an afl game.
 

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The West Australian obsession is a myth as well.

Between 2005 and 2010 we drafted 9 local players and 14 interstate players in the national draft.

absolutely. it wont matter though. people will still talk about drafting west australian players like there is no tomorrow. then when they are crap they will say "oh but we could have had player X" who is interstate player (a bit like masten/rioli thing).

give me a shuey or gaff anyday.
 

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great picks? do all top 30 picks turn out stars in your mind?

ebert is a solid afl player. why do you call him a dud?

sheppard is still at the club.

notte had issues in his head. recruiters cannot fortel whether a player will choose to work, whether he will like afl demands. nottes issue wasnt ability...

stevens has played few good games this year. wouldnt call him a failure. i am not sure what you expect from a pick in 20s?
Ebert was always going home and wasn't worth pick 13.

Notte couldn't run out a qtr. He was a considered a project player built like a marathon runner.. I'm sorry but you don't waste pick 20 on a player like that. Swift - too much risk, Stevens is no good and that's why he never got a game, Weedon...don't even get me started. Sheppard - most underwhelming top 10 pick I have seen at our club since McDougall. Fumbles the ball when he sees his own shadow and doesn't really offer much. We picked him because he had neat skills playing loose in the back line in the U18's.

These were all very good picks (22 and under) and was at a crucial time in our midfield rebuild. These shocking picks are hurting us now as we have nobody coming through.

I'm sorry but the recruiting has been well below par.
 

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Bad recruiting has been an issue.

Lets have a look at some of those great picks we had and who we chose: Notte, Ebert, Swift, Weedon, Sheppard, Stevens, etc etc. All duds and most are no longer at the club. Recruiting has been shocking.
Swift was the major gamble in the 2008 draft a jnr champ overcoming serious injuries but the players that were fit and available that came after pk20 include Ballantyne ,Redden,Beams, Hannabery,Walters ,Sloane are pretty good players now while Swift gave up trying too be a good player
 

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My potential delists would be

A Embley gone good servant
A Selwood gone a good riddance has hurt the club.
B Colledge dont think he will make it at all
S Butler delist or trade to adelaide teams or gws
A Hams delist would be a good pick up for Melbourne capable of getting a couple of goals a game
M Nicoski I would keep him he's almost another development coach he is so good with the younger players,
but maybe delisted, if over injuries, he is still incredibly fit and would offer goal scoring power to other clubs.

Retire
D Kerr
D Glass

Upgrade
C Sinclair
J Bennell
J McGovern

5 or 6 delists and 2 retires and 3 upgrades

That would give us 4 or 5 draft picks in the main draft.
And 3 picks in the rookie.
 

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Ebert was always going home and wasn't worth pick 13.

Notte couldn't run out a qtr. He was a considered a project player built like a marathon runner.. I'm sorry but you don't waste pick 20 on a player like that. Swift - too much risk, Stevens is no good and that's why he never got a game, Weedon...don't even get me started. Sheppard - most underwhelming top 10 pick I have seen at our club since McDougall. Fumbles the ball when he sees his own shadow and doesn't really offer much. We picked him because he had neat skills playing loose in the back line in the U18's.

These were all very good picks (22 and under) and was at a crucial time in our midfield rebuild. These shocking picks are hurting us now as we have nobody coming through.

I'm sorry but the recruiting has been well below par.

brilliant. absolutely brilliant. they should hire you.
 

WCErevival

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Ebert was always going home and wasn't worth pick 13.

Notte couldn't run out a qtr. He was a considered a project player built like a marathon runner.. I'm sorry but you don't waste pick 20 on a player like that. Swift - too much risk, Stevens is no good and that's why he never got a game, Weedon...don't even get me started. Sheppard - most underwhelming top 10 pick I have seen at our club since McDougall. Fumbles the ball when he sees his own shadow and doesn't really offer much. We picked him because he had neat skills playing loose in the back line in the U18's.

These were all very good picks (22 and under) and was at a crucial time in our midfield rebuild. These shocking picks are hurting us now as we have nobody coming through.

I'm sorry but the recruiting has been well below par.
Every team is hit and miss. What about all the good players we have drafted? Shuey, Gaff, Masten, Naitanui, Darling, Selwood etc.
 

the harry

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Upgrade
C Sinclair
J Bennell
J McGovern
Do we need to upgrade these two? We could keep them on the rookie list for another two years, and I can't see Bennell leaving to another club really. Admittedly, we could see Sinclair to a Mumford, but wouldn't Lycett be capable of filling in a bit more adequately next season?
 
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