Dennis Pagan

HBF

Flying Scotsman
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
133,864
Likes
67,823
AFL Club
Carlton
#26
irish_setanta said:
In pagans defence at north he inherited a very good list of young players, at carlton he inherited a old list with no potential and no draft picks, he has moved alot of those players on and over the next 3 years he will build a list that will again be a force. Honestly where is no one who could have done any better over the last 3 years, and in 3 years from now we will hopefully be singing his praises.
Agree Irish. IMO, no one else would have done a better job than Pagan.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Jimthegreat

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Posts
13,344
Likes
5,071
Location
Geelong
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Carlton
#27
HugeBluesFan said:
When Pagan firstly came to Carlton, he was considered one of the best coaches in the caper - no doubt about it.

There was talk about Wallace coming to Carlton at the time, but given the choice between the two, i'd take Pagan any day. Pagan has the runs and the board, and IMO, he is just a better all round coach.

I still believe he is the best man for the job, but I believe our next coach needs to be one of the younger breed - O'Donnell, Harvey, even Hardwick, etc, etc.
Leave it in no doubt, Terry Wallace would have been far better. Smart, innovative and gets the respect of his players, unlike Pagan, who has simply lost them, twice in 3 years. Just sick of Pagan's cop-out excuses.

People should re-read the list again, you'll find it's not that bad. In this case it's the coach. Any coach would've done better. Those that think otherwise know very little about the game.
 

audas

Premiership Player
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Posts
4,107
Likes
5
Location
London
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
carlton
#28
Jimthegreat said:
Leave it in no doubt, Terry Wallace would have been far better. Smart, innovative and gets the respect of his players, unlike Pagan, who has simply lost them, twice in 3 years. Just sick of Pagan's cop-out excuses.

People should re-read the list again, you'll find it's not that bad. In this case it's the coach. Any coach would've done better. Those that think otherwise know very little about the game.
By the same logic anyone who agrees with this knows little about the game !?
Whatever.

Pagan has NEVER, i repeat, NEVER had a chance to field a team after having full access to draft and trading void of AFL penalties incurred by others. Round one will be the first time carlton will be back at square one. We start the rebuilding process on that day. Judgement begins then.

Dismissing these facts to support an emotional attitude lacks logic.

If carlton fail miserably this season Pagan will face some tough questions. If Carlton do brilliantly (and I think they will really surprise, Pagan has a history of taking teams from last to first, bombers reserves i think), then he will be lauded as one of the greatest of coaches. There will also be some egg flying round the room.
 

bibi01

Club Legend
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Posts
2,143
Likes
0
Location
Kop End
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Liverpool FC
#29
Jimthegreat said:
Leave it in no doubt, Terry Wallace would have been far better. Smart, innovative and gets the respect of his players, unlike Pagan, who has simply lost them, twice in 3 years. Just sick of Pagan's cop-out excuses.

People should re-read the list again, you'll find it's not that bad. In this case it's the coach. Any coach would've done better. Those that think otherwise know very little about the game.
any coach could have done better- well we did have wayne brittan for a season prior to pagan. How did he go?????

BTW how many premierships has wallace coached?
did richmond make the finals in 2005?
 

Snoozer

Club Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2004
Posts
2,141
Likes
588
AFL Club
Carlton
#30
IMO, the coaching caper is highly over-rated. Players at that level have either got the goods to play or they don't. Unfortunately at the moment we have too many that can't cut it... which is why I reckon it's far too harsh when the coach is made to cop the brunt of criticism when the side is performing poorly.

Despite what most people think, a coach has bugger all to do with a player developing. If a kid shows enough talent he'll get a game and do well. He'll develop in his own time, if he's willing to put in the hard yards.

The main thing the coach is responsible for is the team structure and game plan. If the players are good enough, they'll find a teammate in space and deliver the ball to him... how often have we seen this happen in the last few years?? Nowhere near as often as it should. Sure people will say that our players are directed to bomb the ball into our forward 50 where the opposition defence are waiting to carry the ball away... but what that really means is we are not getting the ball into a good enough position (ie 60-75m from goal) where we can spot a player on the lead in space. At present we are getting it to centre wing and bombing it up in the air to 40-45m where defenders can zone off... all because our blokes in midfield constantly fumble and scramble the ball forward. If we were clean by hand and foot we'd be a long way in front of where we are now... and Pagan's head wouldn't be on the chopping block..... Pagan can't kick the ball for them. At this level they shouldn't need to be taught basic skills of the game like kicking and hanballing.
 

mojo31

Club Legend
Joined
Jun 17, 2005
Posts
1,789
Likes
0
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Arsenal, AC Milan
#31
Player development is what I am looking for this year. From everyone who was drafted in 2001 onwards is where the future is. I want to see the kids from the 2004 draft in JR, Hartlett and Blackwell given opportunities.
Not bit part roles and 20 minutes when they are selected but significant minutes and perserverance.
Bring them in and play them at least 3 or 4 games before dropping them back if they are struggling. Not 1 week in and 1 week out. Sit them on the bench and make the kid stew over things.

Making them "earn" there spot over and over. I think its time to move on with that idea. They play well in the reserves and are physically ready then they should get an opportunity. If they are selected they play at least half the game and are given more than 1 game.

To me JR is ready for AFL and so is Hartlett. They have had 2 pre seasons and offer us something that others dont. JR gives us some speed and skill down back. Harts gives us versatility and a big bloke who can kick and has composure. Blackers is perhaps less ready but feel he deserves some games later in the year.

Kennedy, Bower and Edwards need a few months in the reserves getting fitter, settling in and gaining experience. Maybe play later on in the seniors.

Murphy is ready. But please dont run the kid into the ground. Nurse him along and play him half the game and play up forward mainly. A run on the ball for a bit but lets not have him in the centre square all the time. He might gain 3 or 4 clearances and then the opposition decide to try pick him off with someone coming in off the square. Luke Ball like from last year. He is 18 and needs to be nursed along like Deledio was. Brett got more game time as the season went on and finished well. Thats what I would be looking for.
 

Dramoth

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
25,624
Likes
13,090
Location
Bunbury, WA
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester United
#32
Pagen is good for the time being...

but the future looks very good with some of out blue blooded sons getting out there and getting more involved in coaching at other clubs.

Rest assured that when the time comes, they will come back home and become a part of the coaching staff and will do us all proud.
 

Dramoth

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
25,624
Likes
13,090
Location
Bunbury, WA
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester United
#33
OZBomb said:
Chris Bond or pehaps Silvagni are the guys to lead Carlton for me.

Unimpressed by Pagan's performance thus far, even given the list limitations.
SoS is a specialist backs coach... he isnt a head coach and never will be...

Maybe get Kenny back in as a head coach...

We have always depended on people from within the club to make us great... now we are depending on people from outside...

Get rid of all the non-blue blood bred assistants and get our sons back into positions of importance

and get the hypen back to put a little backbone back into our beloved club...
 

Dramoth

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
25,624
Likes
13,090
Location
Bunbury, WA
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester United
#34
irish_setanta said:
In pagans defence at north he inherited a very good list of young players, at carlton he inherited a old list with no potential and no draft picks, he has moved alot of those players on and over the next 3 years he will build a list that will again be a force. Honestly where is no one who could have done any better over the last 3 years, and in 3 years from now we will hopefully be singing his praises.
David Parkin would have done a lot better I think :D
 

Jimthegreat

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Posts
13,344
Likes
5,071
Location
Geelong
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Carlton
#35
bibi01 said:
any coach could have done better- well we did have wayne brittan for a season prior to pagan. How did he go?????

BTW how many premierships has wallace coached?
did richmond make the finals in 2005?
Wallace coached the BULLDOGS to 2 Preliminary finals, not the Roo's, who were a far superior unit. Big difference.....not hard to work out. You saying Pagan would've coached the Bulldogs to those PF's. Maybe, but I wouldn't have bet on it. I'd go with Wallace and guaranntee we would not have been anywhere near the bottom. Because of his player-management style, he would not have lost the players in 2003 and again last year as Pagan did. Pagan's certainly shown he can coach, I'll admit that. You don't win 2 flags and make a pile of PF if you can't but you have to re-invent your method as you go, including your approach to the players. That way the players play with passion and committment, the main ingredient that's been missing in our game.

Thus far Pagan and Britain have been level, Pagan's taken us from last to last!! Don't use the draft penalties as a cop-out, our best two players last night, according to Fox Sports, were Simpson and Fisher, no's 45 and 72 in that 2002 draft (not forgetting next year when we got Walker and Stevens). That was way better than picking up Godddard (Well's admittedly would've been nice). I'm happy with those 2 palyers and who's know what our selection mindset would've otherwise been. The list really isn't that bad. 2004 and last years Wizzer showed that.

When making judgements we can only go by what we've seen, and tus far it hasn't been good, but hopefully, fingers crossed, that changes this year. The last 2 weeks of pre-season has been extremely encouraging, and if we do well, make no mistake, I'll be the first man to go up and kiss Pagan's ass!!!!!Hope it all really means something in the season proper.
 

Hu$$ey

All Australian
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Posts
776
Likes
0
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Man Utd, Ferrari
#36
Dramoth said:
Pagen is good for the time being...

but the future looks very good with some of out blue blooded sons getting out there and getting more involved in coaching at other clubs.

Rest assured that when the time comes, they will come back home and become a part of the coaching staff and will do us all proud.
Brett Ratten is the man for us after Denis!
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

SurreyBlue

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 1, 2002
Posts
6,707
Likes
3,885
Location
www.bluebaggers.com
AFL Club
Carlton
#39
Jimthegreat said:
Pagan's certainly shown he can coach, I'll admit that. You don't win 2 flags and make a pile of PF if you can't but you have to re-invent your method as you go, including your approach to the players. That way the players play with passion and committment, the main ingredient that's been missing in our game.

Thus far Pagan and Britain have been level, Pagan's taken us from last to last!! Don't use the draft penalties as a cop-out, our best two players last night, according to Fox Sports, were Simpson and Fisher, no's 45 and 72 in that 2002 draft (not forgetting next year when we got Walker and Stevens). That was way better than picking up Godddard (Well's admittedly would've been nice). I'm happy with those 2 palyers and who's know what our selection mindset would've otherwise been. The list really isn't that bad. 2004 and last years Wizzer showed that.

When making judgements we can only go by what we've seen, and tus far it hasn't been good, but hopefully, fingers crossed, that changes this year. The last 2 weeks of pre-season has been extremely encouraging, and if we do well, make no mistake, I'll be the first man to go up and kiss Pagan's ass!!!!!Hope it all really means something in the season proper.
Got to agree with this.
Very disappointing year was 2005. We are better than that.
 

Jock

Club Legend
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Posts
1,897
Likes
545
Location
Royal Park
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Chelsea Blues
#40
O'Donnell is the man we want next.
Pagan has done a fair job under circumsatnces. The time will present its self for change, could be end of this year or the following depending on where we finish. Same with moving Collo on, this will happen at the right time. These two guys have held us together when the sky was falling.
Back to O'Donnell; he has been with Sheedy and now Mathews. He's not been long out of it, is closer to the players age ah la Roos and galvanised his club. Proven leader, intelligent, innovative and has been involved in a transition stage.
Essendon will choose him over Harvey when Sheedy's time comes.
We need to get in first.
And yes I hate Essendon even more than Collinwood but I care more about the club than my personal hates.
He has far more experience than Ratten.
I too loved the extracter, still do. He'd be a great assistant, team manager, player developement officer or even runner.
Should be at the club in some capacity.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Posts
1,554
Likes
1
Location
At the airport
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Man U, Celtic, rabbitohs.
#41
Dramoth said:
David Parkin would have done a lot better I think :D
You must be joking, he is half the reason we are in a mess now, he never used the draft properly and left a second rate team to brittain and more recently pagan, as bad as we are what sort of mess would we be in with parkin still in charge.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Posts
36
Likes
0
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
#42
Dramoth said:
SoS is a specialist backs coach... he isnt a head coach and never will be...

Maybe get Kenny back in as a head coach...

We have always depended on people from within the club to make us great... now we are depending on people from outside...

Get rid of all the non-blue blood bred assistants and get our sons back into positions of importance

and get the hypen back to put a little backbone back into our beloved club...
Let's not forget that most if not all our premierships were won by teams coached by people who came from other clubs (Worrall, Bentley, Barassi, Parkin)
 

celtic_pride

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Posts
19,310
Likes
47
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
B.Celtics, FC Barcelona, Leeds Utd
#45
HugeBluesFan said:
I really think we need to be careful about "Pagan Bashing"!.

As I have said, not too many other coaches could have done better with our list as it stood/stands.

I will conceed however that, like I have said, he needs to look at his gameplan and re-think it.
Pagan's top up recruitin policy a couple of years back was the wrong path to go down in hindsight, as most of the players recruited were flops and have been delisted, but I suppose having no draft picks had a bit to do with that.
I would like him to be more accountable however and stop persisting with the Pagan's paddock gameplan which doesnt' really work for a team like carlton at the moment.
 

OZBomb

Club Legend
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Posts
2,050
Likes
584
Location
Hobart, Tasmania
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
West Ham United
#48
Effes said:
Paul Hudson
Really good nomination for an assistant coach.

If I was coming up with a coaching team for a new club it would be.

Coach: Chris Bond

Asst.
Matt Armstrong (Reserves Coach)
Paul Hudson
Peter Dean
Peter German
 

Silvagnis

TheBrownDog
Suspended
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Posts
60,595
Likes
15,389
Location
Dr Geoffrey Edelsten's jacuzzi
AFL Club
Carlton
#50
Jimthegreat said:
Leave it in no doubt, Terry Wallace would have been far better. Smart, innovative and gets the respect of his players, unlike Pagan, who has simply lost them, twice in 3 years. Just sick of Pagan's cop-out excuses.

People should re-read the list again, you'll find it's not that bad. In this case it's the coach. Any coach would've done better. Those that think otherwise know very little about the game.
*COUGH*
Code:
WESTERN BULLDOGS: 6.4, 9.11, 18.13, 25.17 (167)
RICHMOND: 3.2, 5.6, 6.6, 7.10 (52)
 
Top Bottom