Analysis Derek Hine leaves the Pies

[Markfs]

Yes, we already saw it last season when he elected to draft players with more foot speed.



I never claimed Dan McStay was a Hine pick or that Hine had much say in our trading, he’s not our list manager. I think your point on Charlie Dean and Mihocek however is way off.



Don’t think he ever identified Poulter as a tall. You’re making up porkies here to suit a weird point. Not every tall is a hit but those were picks under bucks anyways. My pony was he changes recruiting style for the coach this isn’t a good argument against that.


I never said he did a good job with talls, I think you need reed what others post more carefully before going off on your wild ramblings.


Link me to the interview where’re he calls Poulter a kpp then


Rightio……….

i wasnt really posting to you mate...i was posting to the wider audience..

 

[Bianconeri]

i wasnt really posting to you mate...i was posting to the wider audience..

You quoted my post but either way I don’t care who that was directed at my point remains the same.

 

[Markfs]

You quoted my post but either way I don’t care who that was directed at my point remains the same.

I made an argument. You go on about what you didnt say or whatever. I dont think anyone cares about that. If you have something that supports Hine as a recruiter than make that argument. These threads are full of people making minor points or saying that they didnt say something. Who cares whether you said something previously? Who cares about whether Poulter fits some definition of tall? He's 194. If that isnt tall, then I'll say that you cant put him on a list of talls that Hine recruited. So that the total sum of your arguments and so your main argument is that you say that Hine is a great recruiter. Nice argument. You win mate. Go and tell your friends.

 

[sr36]

You think he's changing? Dan McStay was a defender in brisbane when Leppo was the coach. Do you think they are asking Derek to give input? I doubt he had an input with Kreuger. Mihocek was in VFL footy for years. No need for Derek to have an input. The same with Charlie Dean. The same with Darcy Cameron. All in the view of the coaches when they played either VFL against us or AFL.

In fact, Hine spotted 194cm Poulter and probably classified him as a tall, when caleb daniels would probably push him out of the way. He probably had a large say in Will kelly.......do i need to say any more? He had a large say in McMahon.....dropped off the list.

But he's doing a really really really good job with the talls....why am i so keen to pin it on him???

well lets ask ourselves why we pin it on Derek.....well Dekka is a close mate of the AFL media boys. Give us an interview Dekka.....sure thing boys. I'll tell you all my theories and why I drafted the players....

I think Hine's criteria hasn't been role specific enough. Over the last decade he's drafted a lot of athletic talls who aren't strong enough to compete and a lot of smalls who aren't insiders but also don't have the pace or skill to be damaging on the outside.

Thank god for the father son rule.

 

[sr36]

I'm not sure that's how it works. Hine's job is to Identify talent and rate them from 1 - 10. I would Imagine the list manager then decides which player to pick. I don't think you can recruit on what would work for the coach because coaches leave and get sacked

I'd argue that the Hawks dominant run required focussing on footskills for Clarko's game plan and the Tiges dominant run involved targeting pace for Hardwick's game plan.

 

[Markfs]

I think Hine's criteria hasn't been role specific enough. Over the last decade he's drafted a lot of athletic talls who aren't strong enough to compete and a lot of smalls who aren't insiders but also don't have the pace or skill to be damaging on the outside.

Thank god for the father son rule.

i think you give him too much credit. He's done well with the half back types and wingers. He's also had some inspired picks and he's also been compromised by the treloar trade and the beams get back. I appreciate him on balance but gee he gets a lot of love when his choices are good and he somehow has buckley being blamed when he stuffs up. He seems to me to be a bit of a teflon man.

 

[whiskeytown]

I just want to know who was responsible for the gamble to recruit Irish talls and ex basketballers in Madgen and Wilson… instead of finding talls in the draft ?

Larkey, M Lewis, koschitzke, etc etc… plenty of late pick KPP available over the years

but the brains trust at Collingwood chose the Cat B route… which has backfired severely on the club


From the 2018 finals series through to this years final series… our defence in particular… has suffered for the lack of KPP depth

If it was Hine… then he ought to have been moved on for it

And let’s not forget that Hine was list manager prior to Guy turning up… what was his role in our 2020 salary cap woes?

 

[manicpie]

I'd argue that the Hawks dominant run required focussing on footskills for Clarko's game plan and the Tiges dominant run involved targeting pace for Hardwick's game plan.

Sorry, have to disagree there. It doesn't work like that, you don't pick players to suit your coach, you pick the best available and then the it's up to the coach to develop the game plan. Clarkson was lucky he got buddy, roughy, hodge, lewis etc and Richmond decided to completely revamp their game plan

 

[sr36]

Sorry, have to disagree there. It doesn't work like that, you don't pick players to suit your coach, you pick the best available and then the it's up to the coach to develop the game plan. Clarkson was lucky he got buddy, roughy, hodge, lewis etc and Richmond decided to completely revamp their game plan

I thin you're nuts if you're not adjusting your recruiting criteria for the style of footy that you're projecting going forward.

 

[manicpie]

So if Hine identifies the talent but the list manager recommends a spud, who we then recruit, do we blame Hine?
Because we aren’t privy to Hines actual recommendations.

If the list manager recomends a spud, the spud would have been on hine's list, so yeah, Hine get's the blame

 

[manicpie]

I thin you're nuts if you're not adjusting your recruiting criteria for the style of footy that you're projecting going forward.

Your not making sense. What style of football do you expect the players you pick to play? A?re you looking for pace, stamina, athleticism? does it matter? A good recruiter would hopefully factor all that in on a standard day. We'll have to agree to disagree

 

[sr36]

Your not making sense. What style of football do you expect the players you pick to play? A?re you looking for pace, stamina, athleticism? does it matter? A good recruiter would hopefully factor all that in on a standard day. We'll have to agree to disagree

What i mean is if your strategy is the Tiges plan - it helped that the recruiters had recruited a heap of blokes who could fly. That's not to say that pace is the only thing that you'd recruit upon, just that it would be weighted more heavily in your recruiting criteria than in clubs who are trying to develop a different style of footy.

 

[manicpie]

What i mean is if your strategy is the Tiges plan - it helped that the recruiters had recruited a heap of blokes who could fly. That's not to say that pace is the only thing that you'd recruit upon, just that it would be weighted more heavily in your recruiting criteria than in clubs who are trying to develop a different style of footy.

I understand what you're trying to say but don't forget that it takes years to develop those kids to be able to win a flag. Take fly for example, he used the players who were already there and capitalized on their strengths and then moulded the game plan to get the best possible outcome. Target recruiting wasn't even an option there. To many uncertainties in coaching to be targeting players to suit his needs, that's what the trade period is for

 

[sr36]

I understand what you're trying to say but don't forget that it takes years to develop those kids to be able to win a flag. Take fly for example, he used the players who were already there and capitalized on their strengths and then moulded the game plan to get the best possible outcome. Target recruiting wasn't even an option there. To many uncertainties in coaching to be targeting players to suit his needs, that's what the trade period is for

I know, but if you look at what we've done since Fly arrived - 3 blokes with wheels in the last draft and now Bobby Hill. I think we've scaled pace upwards in terms of our recruiting criteria, as it'll make his game plan more effective.

I'm not saying targetting players. Recruiters assess blokes against criteria. If you weight your criteria one way, you'll end up with more good decision makers, if you weight it another way you'll end up with more blokes with pace, if you weight it another way you'll end up with more talls, etc... I'd suggest that the Tigers mosquito fleet was the result of them upping their weighting for pace and lowering it for height. And I think they did it intentionally, as they wanted swarming pressure from their flankers to suit Hardwick's vision.

 

[Markfs]

I just want to know who was responsible for the gamble to recruit Irish talls and ex basketballers in Madgen and Wilson… instead of finding talls in the draft ?

Larkey, M Lewis, koschitzke, etc etc… plenty of late pick KPP available over the years

but the brains trust at Collingwood chose the Cat B route… which has backfired severely on the club


From the 2018 finals series through to this years final series… our defence in particular… has suffered for the lack of KPP depth

If it was Hine… then he ought to have been moved on for it

And let’s not forget that Hine was list manager prior to Guy turning up… what was his role in our 2020 salary cap woes?

I forgot to mention this little strategy earlier...... I know derek loved his little sojourns to the emerald isle. Maybe buckley forced him to go over there to find footballers.

Seriously, what were the people at the club thinking when they brought two kids out from ireland and thought that they would be the key position players in the team?

 

[Masked Magician]

What i mean is if your strategy is the Tiges plan - it helped that the recruiters had recruited a heap of blokes who could fly. That's not to say that pace is the only thing that you'd recruit upon, just that it would be weighted more heavily in your recruiting criteria than in clubs who are trying to develop a different style of footy.

This is spot on!

 

[sr36]

I forgot to mention this little strategy earlier...... I know derek loved his little sojourns to the emerald isle. Maybe buckley forced him to go over there to find footballers.

Seriously, what were the people at the club thinking when they brought two kids out from ireland and thought that they would be the key position players in the team?

I think we had it completely wrong with talls. We thought it was all about height and agility. Whereas it's mostly about reading the game, reading the ball flight and the ability to tussle. None of which are an easy transfer from other sports.

 

[Masked Magician]

I think we had it completely wrong with talls. We thought it was all about height and agility. Whereas it's mostly about reading the game, reading the ball flight and the ability to tussle. None of which are an easy transfer from other sports.

Again, spot on

 

[Mollythedolly]

Yep, DeGoey, Maynard, Grundy and Henry are the only open-market 1st or 2nd round picks we’ve gotten right over past DECADE. Of those, Maynard is the only one who has been problem-free. (admittedly we created our own problems with Grundy).

It really is an atrocious record. It’s quite amazing that we’re not anchored at the bottom of the ladder after torching so many 1st and 2nd rounders.

I hope that this draft will be Hine’s last at Collingwood. Time for fresh eyes/thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

How many 1st and 2nd round picks has he had in the last decade?

How many of them were F/S or academy picks? For the record, they still count, they’re not a free hit as some suggest, you still need to facilitate drafting them.

 

[Carringbush2010]

For all those whinging about Hine, we played in a GF in 2018, a preliminary in 2019, won a final in 2020, let's forget 21, preliminary in 2022, he must be doing something right

And still no flag, all the time those on the other side of Brunton ave have just performed a dynasty. And the lastest prem has a much stronger draft / trade hand than we do. (admittedly that's low bar).

I don't think Hine is the sole cause, it's the past admin and FD that were the problem and are still biting us in the ass and probably will be for some time.

Always our own worst enemy, putting up hurdles against ourselves to the end game, and that's why we don't win flags.

 

[Mollythedolly]

Hine selects as per the game style of the coach and the attributes the coach believes each position should have.

EG the coach wants his key fwds to be mobile then hine will overlook cumbersome, labouring talls.

EG the coach wants all his non key position players to have pace to spread with the ball and pressure without it, and agility to move through traffic, then hine will target these types of players.

The point I’m making, Hine had his hands tied behind his back under Buckley.

He has had the 2021 national and rookie draft and the 2022 mid season draft under fly and national recruiting managers do not grow on trees. Let’s judge him in 2-3 years time once he has a handful of drafts drafting for fly.

I'd add that potential draft targets are also competing for list spots with players traded in. EG pointless drafting a forward/ruck prospect when you've just traded in Cameron, take Rantall, Bianco, and Ruscoe instead.

 

[Mollythedolly]

You think he's changing? Dan McStay was a defender in brisbane when Leppo was the coach. Do you think they are asking Derek to give input? I doubt he had an input with Kreuger. Mihocek was in VFL footy for years. No need for Derek to have an input. The same with Charlie Dean. The same with Darcy Cameron. All in the view of the coaches when they played either VFL against us or AFL.

In fact, Hine spotted 194cm Poulter and probably classified him as a tall, when caleb daniels would probably push him out of the way. He probably had a large say in Will kelly.......do i need to say any more? He had a large say in McMahon.....dropped off the list.

But he's doing a really really really good job with the talls....why am i so keen to pin it on him???

well lets ask ourselves why we pin it on Derek.....well Dekka is a close mate of the AFL media boys. Give us an interview Dekka.....sure thing boys. I'll tell you all my theories and why I drafted the players....

So Dekka pins it on Dekka.....so if you want to complain to someone about Dekka getting some responsibility for his crap drafting of talls, then go and ask Dekka why he bignotes himself and thinks his crap doesnt stink and why he likes to take all the glory.....

I like the way you apportion lots of the blame to Hine for the choices you don't like while giving him none of the credit for those you do like. No bias there at all.

 

[Mollythedolly]

I just want to know who was responsible for the gamble to recruit Irish talls and ex basketballers in Madgen and Wilson… instead of finding talls in the draft ?

Larkey, M Lewis, koschitzke, etc etc… plenty of late pick KPP available over the years

but the brains trust at Collingwood chose the Cat B route… which has backfired severely on the club


From the 2018 finals series through to this years final series… our defence in particular… has suffered for the lack of KPP depth

If it was Hine… then he ought to have been moved on for it

And let’s not forget that Hine was list manager prior to Guy turning up… what was his role in our 2020 salary cap woes?

Ultimately, those calls fall on Walshy.

 

[manicpie]

Ultimately, those calls fall on Walshy.

Correct, it's the list manager who makes the choices, Hine just finds the talent

 

[Markfs]

I like the way you apportion lots of the blame to Hine for the choices you don't like while giving him none of the credit for those you do like. No bias there at all.

i was badgered by a hine lover who just wouldnt accept that he had skin in the game.

I said in a later post that he did pretty well overall. He furnished the basics of a team that did well in finals but we were short on talls for most of the last decade. Now I realise that some of that is probably due to Buckley wanting a certain type of player, but as I said in an earlier post, the proof of the lack of talls is in the fact that we have recruited so many in the last 18 months.