Despite no flag the last 10 or so seasons weren’t a ‘waste of time’

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Simple question is this. With the personnel - let’s forget for the sake of the argument that a hypothetical coach would have had the same players at his disposal - do you think under another current coach we would have won a flag in the time since 2012

Tough question, but I think maybe yes - just because there is enough data to suggest something wasn't right about our approach to finals - they regularly feature as some of our lowest scoring games.

Conversely, when underdogs in finals we really didn't win many at all - you'd expect a few.

It is true that being the 3rd/4th best team leads to a somewhat unfair and unflattering finals record, just by the nature of the system. But the fact remains we had enough goes at it, and even when underdogs in Prelims etc - we should have a better overall return.

A statistical view:

Looking at our Prelim results since 2012 (L, L, L, L, W, L) or even our QF results (L, L, W, L, L, L). Applying Maximum Likelihood estimation based on these results would give us an average expected odds, of winning any one of those individual games, of $6.

Six Dollars!
We were never that much of an underdog going in.

I can't remember what the markets were at the time but I doubt we ever reached the juicy highs of $6 for any one game, let alone on average. I'd be surprised if any one of those games saw us start higher than $4 to be honest. I mean just recently against Melbourne, most people thought we were considerable underdogs - but we were still only about as high as $3 pre game.

So yes, we may have been 3rd or 4th best over the journey but we have statistically massively underperformed, no two ways about it. In my mind, when it comes to finals, we haven't had it in us to win one against the odds. Brisbane in 2020 probably the only exception.
 
Tough question, but I think maybe yes - just because there is enough data to suggest something wasn't right about our approach to finals - they regularly feature as some of our lowest scoring games.

Conversely, when underdogs in finals we really didn't win many at all - you'd expect a few.

It is true that being the 3rd/4th best team leads to a somewhat unfair and unflattering finals record, just by the nature of the system. But the fact remains we had enough goes at it, and even when underdogs in Prelims etc - we should have a better overall return.

A statistical view:

Looking at our Prelim results since 2012 (L, L, L, L, W, L) or even our QF results (L, L, W, L, L, L). Applying Maximum Likelihood estimation based on these results would give us an average expected odds, of winning any one of those individual games, of $6.

Six Dollars!
We were never that much of an underdog going in.

I can't remember what the markets were at the time but I doubt we ever reached the juicy highs of $6 for any one game, let alone on average. I'd be surprised if any one of those games saw us start higher than $4 to be honest. I mean just recently against Melbourne, most people thought we were considerable underdogs - but we were still only about as high as $3 pre game.

So yes, we may have been 3rd or 4th best over the journey but we have statistically massively underperformed, no two ways about it. In my mind, when it comes to finals, we haven't had it in us to win one against the odds. Brisbane in 2020 probably the only exception.

That’s an interesting way of looking at it.

the only coach I think would have won a flag given the same cards, is Longmire. He’s got a strong element of imbuing what we’ve been lacking to his coaching
 

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Experienced teams do coach themselves to a certain extent. Scott came in as a very inexperienced new senior coach. And if you want to give Scott more credit then I would, then where are the premierships from 2012 to today? Ot at least the GF appearances? We have had very good teams to do it. Scott is a good coach. Not good enough.

this is just rubbish posting. Teams
Did

Absolutely Hawthorn took risks - they were just good enough to halve the contest if it didn’t come off.

But biting off the risky kick is what made the game plan work, because they made the opposition defend the whole ground.

Long story short, Hawthorn controlled the ball by foot because they moved it with purpose, to cut through defences at angles and score. We try and control it by foot because we are scared of losing it on the turnover and exposing the defence.

I don’t recall Hawthorn in that time playing some of the appalling footy games we played this year. And it has been aesthetically appalling. That Carlton win Collingwood win, they were both indefensible for a neutral fan.

That’s not the way I saw it, they were far from a team pulling risky kicks and having turnovers everywhere. I watched all their grand finals and it was like cutting through Swiss cheese watching them move the ball, hardly a game filled with risk taking as there was no turnovers.

I can see the viewpoint you have, I just simply don’t see it that way. I see a very highly skilled elite kicking team of left footers kicking within their precision limits and skills which I don’t classify as risk taking. If you can hit someone on the chest in between two opponents 19/20 times is this considered risk taking?? Risk taking by foot is dependent on who has the ball in hand. Compare to mark blicavs going corridor or sideways who would probably only hit it 8/20 times at best. One is extreme risk taking the others simply routine.

probably the best kicking side I have ever seen and filled with left footers.

that’s where I am getting at saying we try to do the same, we just lack the skills to pull such things off or many other game plans.

I do recall us when up and about such as last years finals cutting back into the middle a lot, also watch the game vs Richmond this season and we routinely do so. It’s just more so when we have the opportunity to do so we do so, and our scope to pinpoint passes into the Centre is limited by our kicking skills.

by the way I do enjoy game plan conversations as it’s my area of enjoyment analysing, so take my responses in best faith
 
That’s an interesting way of looking at it.

the only coach I think would have won a flag given the same cards, is Longmire. He’s got a strong element of imbuing what we’ve been lacking to his coaching

Longmire is a really interesting comparison with Chris Scott.

CoachChris ScottJohn Longmire
First year coaching20112011
FlagsOne (in first year)One (in second year)
Runners upOneTwo
Prelims Reached74
Finals Made109

A very similar record. I'd have to dig deeper though to see if Sydney have shat the bed in first quarters the same way the cats have over the journey, but, it is a very similar record and I'm not sure if Horse get's the same level of criticism?
 
Longmire is a really interesting comparison with Chris Scott.

CoachChris ScottJohn Longmire
First year coaching20112011
FlagsOne (in first year)One (in second year)
Runners upOneTwo
Prelims Reached74
Finals Made109

A very similar record. I'd have to dig deeper though to see if Sydney have shat the bed in first quarters the same way the cats have over the journey, but, it is a very similar record and I'm not sure if Horse get's the same level of criticism?
To be fair Sydney were favourites against Hawks when they lost, and copped an unlucky injury to Franklin and some truly atrocious umpiring in the second GF.

But Sydney have access to talent we don't have. Their access to the academy was like our father son access back in the day.
 
To be fair Sydney were favourites against Hawks when they lost, and copped an unlucky injury to Franklin and some truly atrocious umpiring in the second GF.

But Sydney have access to talent we don't have. Their access to the academy was like our father son access back in the day.

id say worse, its more frequent and in greater volume.

its almost impossible for them to remain a bottom side the way the system is
 
That’s an interesting way of looking at it.

the only coach I think would have won a flag given the same cards, is Longmire. He’s got a strong element of imbuing what we’ve been lacking to his coaching

i do think there is an element of absurdity in saying that geelong had a list capable of competing for a flag for 8-15 years.. and that any coach could have done so or even better.

i think just without even looking further, there is no such thing as anyone doing this let alone some expectation that it should occur for a period of this time.

by its very nature of a period that long, you would have to be an exceptional coach
 
Simple question is this. With the personnel - let’s forget for the sake of the argument that a hypothetical coach would have had the same players at his disposal - do you think under another current coach we would have won a flag in the time since 2012

Yes. And I'll give you the year too - 2013. We should have won that flag easily.
 
On what grounds? I’m not arguing I’m just interested in the logic

Because any coach with a brain would not have:
  1. Played Hawkins when it was clear his back was troubling him - assuring fans it wouldn't get worse - except it DID get worse and caused him to miss the Qualifying final.
  2. Played Chapman as the sub in the Qualifying Final. It was only his 250th game.
  3. Played Blicavs as a ruckman against Sandilands. A fully fit Trent West got to watch in horror with the rest of us.
 
Because any coach with a brain would not have:
  1. Played Hawkins when it was clear his back was troubling him - assuring fans it wouldn't get worse - except it DID get worse and caused him to miss the Qualifying final.
  2. Played Chapman as the sub in the Qualifying Final. It was only his 250th game.
  3. Played Blicavs as a ruckman against Sandilands. A fully fit Trent West got to watch in horror with the rest of us.
That Chapman sub decision was one of my darkest days as a supporter. I saw him running out in that fluro vest and I couldn't shake the disbelief for the rest of the game.
 

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That Chapman sub decision was one of my darkest days as a supporter. I saw him running out in that fluro vest and I couldn't shake the disbelief for the rest of the game.
Making a norm smith medalist and a proven finals performer the sub in a final was and still is the worst decision I have ever seen. I still remember hearing it for the first time and literally not believing it until I physically saw him with the vest on.

The way Chappy was treated in general was appalling. I still haven’t forgiven the club for that. Just wasn’t right seeing him finish in Essendon colours.
 
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Making a norm smith medalist and a proven finals performer the sub in a final was and still is the worst decision I have ever seen. I still remember hearing it for the first time and literally not believing it until I physically saw him with the vest on.

The way Chappy was treated in general was appalling. I still haven’t forgiven the club for that. Just wasn’t right seeing him finish in Essendon colours.
And yet we now hang onto our players once they are past it and chase up washed up hacks… makes it disgusting how the past champions were treated by being pushed out the door for this lot
 
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I thought they did the right decision to retire Hunt Kelly and Chapman as they didn't really perform at other clubs Boris and Taylor retired at the right time and thought Bartel and Johnson could have gone around 1 more year, Selwood and Ablett have gone 1 year too long
 
I walked out of the MCG at 16 years of age in 1963 and if anyone had said, "You'll be waiting 44 years..etc" I would have laughed.

The last 10 years of constant finals footy and horrendous failure (drubbings, not just losses) is much worse than, say, 4, 5 or 6 finals campaigns and another flag. It could be another 44 years before we win again - laughable statement? They're harder to win in the AFL era.

The 2011 team was tagged too old and too slow and proved the critics wrong. The current team is too old, too slow, frankly too mediocre and declining by the minute.

Take it from me, you don't really want to suffer coitus interruptus every September.
 
Because any coach with a brain would not have:
  1. Played Hawkins when it was clear his back was troubling him - assuring fans it wouldn't get worse - except it DID get worse and caused him to miss the Qualifying final.
  2. Played Chapman as the sub in the Qualifying Final. It was only his 250th game.
  3. Played Blicavs as a ruckman against Sandilands. A fully fit Trent West got to watch in horror with the rest of us.

I would find this easier to get my head around if it was related to the game we lost by a kick to hawthorn.
You’d have played Trent West AND Nathan Vardy against Sandilands?
(Yes I realise Vardy was as much a forward as he was a ruckman? The scoring shots were identical the whole way through the game so I don’t know how much of an impact it has when you kick yourself out of the game.

the Hawkins thing - well who’s advice does he go off if he doesn’t listen to the doctors?
 
Making a norm smith medalist and a proven finals performer the sub in a final was and still is the worst decision I have ever seen. I still remember hearing it for the first time and literally not believing it until I physically saw him with the vest on.

The way Chappy was treated in general was appalling. I still haven’t forgiven the club for that. Just wasn’t right seeing him finish in Essendon colours.
Agree. For me, he mattered more than any other player through that period. Started it all after 2006 and was the one man to stand up and throw down the goblet to everyone around him. If only we had more blokes like him in the club these days...

Oh well, at least we have Kolo. He'll steady the ship.
 
Making a norm smith medalist and a proven finals performer the sub in a final was and still is the worst decision I have ever seen. I still remember hearing it for the first time and literally not believing it until I physically saw him with the vest on.

The way Chappy was treated in general was appalling. I still haven’t forgiven the club for that. Just wasn’t right seeing him finish in Essendon colours.

We have people left right and centre making attacks on the club for NOT moving players on. Make up your mind.
 
I would find this easier to get my head around if it was related to the game we lost by a kick to hawthorn.
You’d have played Trent West AND Nathan Vardy against Sandilands?
(Yes I realise Vardy was as much a forward as he was a ruckman? The scoring shots were identical the whole way through the game so I don’t know how much of an impact it has when you kick yourself out of the game.

the Hawkins thing - well who’s advice does he go off if he doesn’t listen to the doctors?
West had every chance to make the ruck role his own in 2012 and just was not an AFL standard ruckman.
 
My 2 cents re. knobs giving you sh*t.

Just dont argue with them, in fact agree with them (even if you dont). Or make jokes at Geelongs own expense. The worst thing you can do is show them you're pissed and they've gotten under your skin.


fu** em.
its very knobby here unsurprisingly.

Mind you - we were total unmitigated s**t in the Finals and deserve to be castigated as such.

Go Catters
 
Trent West references...

Nothing ever changes here lmao.

Please carry on.

Go Catters
 
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