Destination clubs - an equalisation loophole?

[Strangled Cat]

If you are a choice employer, you will have the cream of the crop wanting to work for you. In the real world, you improve or you die. In the AFL's world, they need 18 clubs to ensure a 2.5 Billion TV rights deal. A deal like that will see them gladly artificially prop up half a dozen or so clubs on a permanent basis.

Life isn't equal and no two people or situations can ever be the same. Therefore, you can't expect an 'equal' output from 18 clubs. The draft is supposed to be the engine room which ensures that the worm keeps turning, but all the draft really is is a free shot for one club to pick before the next club which was ever so slightly more successful in any given year.

At the end of the day it is up to individual clubs to dictate their own success. Some clubs have more natural advantages than others. Geelong benefits by its geographical location and by having a very strong junior football program based in its city with the Geelong Falcons. But that's just the way it is. Get better or die. And do so in spite of any unchangeable disadvantages.

Hawthorn were fcuked 20 years ago. But they chose to not die and instead got better. As a result they have over 70K members, $3.5 million operating profit, three-peating AFTER only winning a flag seven years prior and rightly so, they can now be confident in attracting good players without having to pay overs, because that player will take a pay cut to be in a successful environment.

There's no loophole here - it's just simply a case of some clubs performing better than others, in spite of the many socialistic measures put in place by the AFL. It is, after all, a competition. That's the point, and there's no gold star for effort. Effort simply has to translate into results, otherwise there is zero point of even having a competiton.

 

[Back One Out]

your the joker, loud mouthed Hawthorn arrogance, deal was for 4 years for a start, and no where near 800k #factsdontcount

Enjoy the four years...

 

[Back One Out]

You seem pretty agitated for somebody who states it is not a bid deal for the Hawks not to get Carlisle. Really comes across like you care quite a lot dude. In fact the numerous pot shots at our club reeks of you being a little pissed the a so called minnow club may have trumped the Hawks on this one.

Congratulations on the new recruit. Looks like you're onto a winner there.

Get stuffed mate. We are building a solid young side to rise for another crack

Did someone say "crack" ?

We are in the mix and actually been far more relevant the last decade than so called powerhouses Richmond, Essendon & Carlton.

Did someone say "mix" ?

 

[Back One Out]

the prospect of one of their players lining up a bump

Sounds like Jake

 

[saintbill]

Congratulations on the new recruit. Looks like you're onto a winner there.

Did someone say "crack" ?

Did someone say "mix"

Congratulations on the new recruit. Looks like you're onto a winner there.

Did someone say "crack" ?

Did someone say "mix" ?

You still seem overly agitated by our club. I don't think too many of us will care about Carlisle's little off season discretion when he is plucking marks from everywhere in 6 months time. How if your off season travelling?

 

[dean31]

Has anyone ever had the thought besides me that hawthorn have been Genuinely Lucky in the last 3 granny's??

2013 - played an interstate team on your home ground
2014- played an interstate team on your home ground
2015 - played an interstate team on your home ground.

You blokes have never even played another Victorian side on the big dance that can actually play at the G.

and if it's any consolidation I truely believe the other 2 clubs that have achieved similar accolades in the last decade (Brisbane & Geelong) had to do it twice as hard and would pants your mob all the way back to glenferrie road.

Arrogant pricks.

 

[dean31]

I was actually quite annoyed when I heard the Hawks were making a play for Carlisle. He's not worth pick 5 or 2 late picks in the first round. Can't stand clubs like Essendon that over rate players and I feel sorry for the clubs that have to pay overs for average players. The biggest sticking point for the Hawks getting Carlisle was actually the money. Hawks were offering significantly less money than the Saints did and naturally Carlisle was chasing money. The Hawks dodged a bullet on that 1 and Jake with his extra money will be able to party hard and have a cracking good time.

 

[Patty_vanda]

Lmao quality response

 

[MaddAdam]

And North have been very active this trade period trying to lure established players - Treloar, Aish, Howe, Seedsman, Freeman, Henderson, now Anderson.

That they've largely struggled to get players to nominate them, and they're so desperate as a result they'll throw away a first round pick, reinforces my point.

Yet we managed to get Shaun Higgins to come to us whereupon he got in the AA squad. We got Dal Santo who was being offered more by Essendon.

As it turns out we weren't panicking and throwing our first rounder at Hawthorn for Anderson.

Instead we traded a guy who plays a role where we are deep - Bastinac and inside mids - for a going very highly rated kid who fills an exact need for us in Anderson, and all it cost was two draft spots in the 1st round. And we managed to get two picks in the mid 20s to go along with it. Looks like a pretty nifty bit of business.

We weren't the only club chasing Treloar. Richmond went pretty hard and lost too. Collingwood always had Treloar in the bag. But then, Nathan Buckley ratted on a deal to go to North so he could win flags at the Woods and look how that turned out.

So we go hard to get talent? That's a good thing. You can't get them all. The key is that when we do get them, they tend to work out well. People put craps on us for getting Waite. Then he caned Richmond in a final.

We've also managed to be very successful in attracting talent without throwing away draft picks. Which means guys like Taylor Garner still develop and come through the ranks and find themselves playing good footy in finals.

Collingwood would want Treloar to work out given they have paid two first rounders for him. Cutting yourself out of the first round of consecutive drafts is a risky business.

Collingwood have also been giving up established senior players and punting on the rebuild. Yet a top ten pick has walked out on them without playing a game. Not great for a rebuild.

North have had only two players leave in the Scott era we wanted to keep. Gibson has gone into great things at the Hawks but we're hardly alone in Hawthorn targeting a player.

Levi Greenwood's loss didn't affect our midfield in any way and we used the pick we got for him to address a list issue - key defender - that will soon become pressing.

So yes, your post looks rather inaccurate now.

 

[HFF]

So we go hard to get talent? That's a good thing. You can't get them all. The key is that when we do get them, they tend to work out well. People put craps on us for getting Waite. Then he caned Richmond in a final.

We've also managed to be very successful in attracting talent without throwing away draft picks. Which means guys like Taylor Garner still develop and come through the ranks and find themselves playing good footy in finals.

Collingwood would want Treloar to work out given they have paid two first rounders for him. Cutting yourself out of the first round of consecutive drafts is a risky business.

Collingwood have also been giving up established senior players and punting on the rebuild. Yet a top ten pick has walked out on them without playing a game. Not great for a rebuild.

Going hard for talent is fine. You need to continue to look at ways to improve the list. However, if you keep throwing your hat into the ring for every player and land none of them, it is quite a bad look. You need to pick your targets accordingly and get them not just scatter gun approach it. It's no secret that the general perception of the targets North chased was the list is "ageing". Whether it's true or not, that's the outside perception.

We paid 2 first rounders for Treloar but we got a second round back. Therefore we have down graded our future first into a second. It's not two firsts on their own as you have suggested so we are still involved in the draft.

Considering in 2012 we have 2 first rounders still on the list, in 2013 we have 2 top 10 picks on the list and from 2014 we have another 2 top 10 picks on the list suggests we have not cut ourselves out of the draft. In fact, we have had access to a plethora of first rounders and particularly top 10 picks.

We lost a top 10 pick who didn't play a game but we essentially swapped him for a player who was taken at pick 7 in the same draft in James Aish with 32 games under his belt as opposed to none. So the rebuild is unaffected, in fact it's progressed nicely.

Adam Treloar is 22 years old and proven AFL quality with his best footy ahead of him.
James Aish is still 19yrs old and taken pick 7 two years ago.

These are the guys essentially we have recruited this season as opposed to 18yr olds from the draft and we still have a second round pick in this year's November draft at pick 27. The age profile is fine.

 

[MaddAdam]

Going hard for talent is fine. You need to continue to look at ways to improve the list. However, if you keep throwing your hat into the ring for every player and land none of them, it is quite a bad look. You need to pick your targets accordingly and get them not just scatter gun approach it. It's no secret that the general perception of the targets North chased was the list is "ageing". Whether it's true or not, that's the outside perception.

We paid 2 first rounders for Treloar but we got a second round back. Therefore we have down graded our future first into a second. It's not two firsts on their own as you have suggested so we are still involved in the draft.

Considering in 2012 we have 2 first rounders still on the list, in 2013 we have 2 top 10 picks on the list and from 2014 we have another 2 top 10 picks on the list suggests we have not cut ourselves out of the draft. In fact, we have had access to a plethora of first rounders and particularly top 10 picks.

We lost a top 10 pick who didn't play a game but we essentially swapped him for a player who was taken at pick 7 in the same draft in James Aish with 32 games under his belt as opposed to none. So the rebuild is unaffected, in fact it's progressed nicely.

Adam Treloar is 22 years old and proven AFL quality with his best footy ahead of him.
James Aish is still 19yrs old and taken pick 7 two years ago.

These are the guys essentially we have recruited this season as opposed to 18yr olds from the draft and we still have a second round pick in this year's November draft at pick 27. The age profile is fine.

We have brought in perfectly what we've needed via fa and trade.

Midfield was lacking polish - Nick Dal Santo, an elite ball user comes in.

Need more outside run and class - Shaun Higgins comes in, makes AA squad in first year.

Another quality tall to help Petrie - Jarrad Waite comes in for career best form.

We need more outside run, hence we recruit Anderson (and a young player not being able to crack a regular game in one of the best sides ever? Oh no. Josh Kennedy also struggled before Sydney snared him) at what was to all intents and purposes a deal for Bastinac that also got us two 2nd rounders? Brilliant work.

Maybe it will work out for Collingwood. But the post I replied to about us panicking and throwing a first rounder for Anderson was clearly wrong.

 

[harmesy 37]

You can't equalise everything, it isn't and never will be a flat competition.

Roos have come a long way in making themselves attractive, other clubs will have to do the same thing or fall behind.

So the Roos have done it and not with AFL assistance?

People are very naïve in terms of how teams prosper in this competition. They think it is all due to their own making in the draft/trading, yet the facts are behind the scenes the AFL is frantically putting millions and millions of extra dollars into North and other favoured clubs that clubs such as my shitish club don't get.

What do those millions get you? profits, which in turn gets you money to spend on recruitment, player welfare etc.

Hawthorn is a "destination club" and will win the premiership (barring injury) and provide another boring grand final next year. People are "amazed" that in this time of "equity" there are "dynasties" yet look behind the veneer and you will see the truth.

 

[Pessimistic]

So the Roos have done it and not with AFL assistance?

People are very naïve in terms of how teams prosper in this competition. They think it is all due to their own making in the draft/trading, yet the facts are behind the scenes the AFL is frantically putting millions and millions of extra dollars into North and other favoured clubs that clubs such as my shitish club don't get.

What do those millions get you? profits, which in turn gets you money to spend on recruitment, player welfare etc.

Hawthorn is a "destination club" and will win the premiership (barring injury) and provide another boring grand final next year. People are "amazed" that in this time of "equity" there are "dynasties" yet look behind the veneer and you will see the truth.

The hawks have never ever got help from the afl, not without a fight anyway eg waverely compensation

Your club paid way over to one or two players. Look there first

 

[RUNVS]

Is the AFL switching places with the EPL?
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/is-the-afl-switching-places-with-the-epl-20151216-glp2zx.html

Nearly halfway through the 2015-16 English Premier League season, strange things are afoot.

At the top of the table is not one of the perennial Manchester behemoths, nor Chelsea, but little Leicester City. Not far behind, in contention for a spot in the European club competitions, are Crystal Palace and Watford, hardly giants of the football world.

It's rare territory for the EPL, in which just five clubs have shared 23 titles. And for fans of AFL football, there's considerable irony in the shake-up.

We've become used to hearing how even our own competition is in the national era, the Premier League often used in disparaging comparison. But is it the case anymore?

Just like the EPL, in the last 23 seasons of the old VFL, only five clubs – Richmond, Carlton, Hawthorn, North Melbourne and Essendon – managed to win premierships. Suddenly, with the addition of non-Victorian teams, things opened right up.

The first 17 seasons of AFL football post-1990 produced no fewer than 10 different premiership clubs. But since then? Seven of nine premierships have been shared by just two clubs, Geelong and Hawthorn.

Better list management and administration of clubs is a factor. But just as the introduction of the draft and salary cap has long been touted as pivotal to the evening up of the AFL competition, a de-regulation of the player market might well be re-opening that old gap between the winners and the winners-not.

It's not just about free agency itself, which delivered Hawthorn James Frawley, but of course famously also cost them Lance Franklin, while Geelong's prize pick-up of Patrick Dangerfield from Adelaide ended up occurring via the trade table.

But the club-hopping of bigger names, however achieved, has not only legitimised more the concept of multi-club stars, but in turn shifted recruiting mindsets, the "mix-n-match" approach now seemingly a more viable route to premiership success than drafting and developing a generation of future flag-winners.

Not surprisingly, it was Hawthorn and Geelong that also managed the latter approach best, paving the way for their current penchant for top-ups.

The 2004 national draft sent Franklin, Jarryd Roughead and Jordan Lewis the Hawks' way, Grant Birchall the following year. The equivalent for Geelong came in 1999 with Joel Corey, Paul Chapman, Cameron Ling and Corey Enright, and 2001 with Jimmy Bartel and James Kelly.

Can you build a flag-winning team from scratch now, though? While it was widely accepted that fledgling clubs Gold Coast and Greater Western Sydney were always going to battle to keep their star classes together, they're not the only ones.

In addition to those who have already left the Suns and Giants, there's another half-dozen top-12 draft picks from just three drafts (2011-13) already elsewhere - Billy Longer, Sam Docherty and James Aish (all from Brisbane), plus Jimmy Toumpas, Troy Menzel and Nathan Freeman, the last without even playing a senior game.

No club now can bank on hanging on to an early draft pick for too long, and of course players who increasingly explore their options are going to look at the stronger clubs first.

Just on one-third of Hawthorn's 2015 premiership side hailed from other clubs. Geelong's best 22 next season, post the recruitment of Dangerfield, Lachie Henderson, Scott Selwood and Zac Smith, could conceivably boast as many.

Older football fans might recall Richmond and North Melbourne's premiership sides of the early to mid-1970s. The Tigers' back-to-back flags of 1973-74 featured imports like Ian Stewart, Paul Sproule, Robbie McGhie, Gareth Andrews, David Thorpe and Stephen Rae.

The Roos loaded up, too. Whilst the 10-year-rule, the era's free agency equivalent, saw North pick up Barry Davis, Doug Wade and John Rantall, they also went rival club shopping for the likes of Brent Crosswell, Stan Alves, John Cassin, Peter Keenan and Bill Nettlefold.

Those two clubs won four of five premierships between 1973-77, and over a dozen seasons from 1967-78 collectively made 10 grand final appearances. Ring a bell, Hawks and Cats fans?

It's certainly easy to draw the correlation not only between their capacity to lure that established talent and the success reaped in the same period, but to what's increasingly going on today.

In the English Premier League, the strong clubs have always been able to get stronger, hence the novelty value of what's happening now.

And as Hawthorn shoot for four flags in a row, perhaps the AFL's administrators might also start anxiously pondering whether in a few years' time a Carlton or Melbourne on top of the ladder will produce similar startled reactions to those going on in the Old Dart.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/is-the-afl-switching-places-with-the-epl-20151216-glp2zx.html

I think Rohan has a point here and it is becoming a problem. I also really liked Rohan's idea on SEN yesterday when he said that free agency needs to change and his idea is that for a team last on the ladder when signing a free agent only 50% of that free agents salary goes into the cap, while a team that finishes 1st has 150% of that free agents salary going into the cap, though I would personally do this

18th - 70%
17th - 72%
16th - 74%
15th -76%
14th - 80%
13th - 84%
12th - 88%
11th - 92%
10th - 96%
9th - 100%
8th - 104%
7th - 108%
6th - 112%
5th - 116%
4th - 119%
3rd - 122%
2nd - 125%
1st - 130%

I think that would help free agency a lot.

 

[Pessimistic]

Good yarn by rohan with some good points but hawthorn geelong north richmond as the arsenal chelsea manu manc of the competition ?

More like nottingham forest middlesboro milwall.

Really he should be rejoicing so caled unfashionable clubs are successful and growing to the size of the big four


And attractiveness of a club is more than success. Lets hamstring those clubs and make them int talent burners like melbourne, and nex minute peopel will be lamenting the poor skills

 

[Pessimistic]

Is the AFL switching places with the EPL?
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/is-the-afl-switching-places-with-the-epl-20151216-glp2zx.html


http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/is-the-afl-switching-places-with-the-epl-20151216-glp2zx.html

I think Rohan has a point here and it is becoming a problem. I also really liked Rohan's idea on SEN yesterday when he said that free agency needs to change and his idea is that for a team last on the ladder when signing a free agent only 50% of that free agents salary goes into the cap, while a team that finishes 1st has 150% of that free agents salary going into the cap, though I would personally do this

18th - 70%
17th - 72%
16th - 74%
15th -76%
14th - 80%
13th - 84%
12th - 88%
11th - 92%
10th - 96%
9th - 100%
8th - 104%
7th - 108%
6th - 112%
5th - 116%
4th - 119%
3rd - 122%
2nd - 125%
1st - 130%

I think that would help free agency a lot.

So add 3 million to sydneys buddy bill. Delicious

 

[MaddAdam]

Rohan acts like City have been dominant for ages, they haven't, they are only recently a power.

Rohan is having a giant off season sook because Essendon won heaps of flags in the time of the horse and cart, but nobody rates them any more.

 

[Pessimistic]

Rohan acts like City have been dominant for ages, they haven't, they are only recently a power.

Rohan is having a giant off season sook because Essendon won heaps of flags in the time of the horse and cart, but nobody rates them any more.

I wonder if there could be any reason why essendon might not be a destination club?

Chelsea too, they were the trendy party club like St Kilda till not so long ago. Mancs have at various times tried to buy success but it only really worked recently. Their supporters are still the scumbags of the north. "Shameless" is kind to them really

 

[Kwality]

Equalisation & free agency were not established to compliment each other - equalisation is the AFLs work, free agency from the AFLPA.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

I was actually quite annoyed when I heard the Hawks were making a play for Carlisle. He's not worth pick 5 or 2 late picks in the first round. Can't stand clubs like Essendon that over rate players and I feel sorry for the clubs that have to pay overs for average players. The biggest sticking point for the Hawks getting Carlisle was actually the money. Hawks were offering significantly less money than the Saints did and naturally Carlisle was chasing money. The Hawks dodged a bullet on that 1 and Jake with his extra money will be able to party hard and have a cracking good time.

This reads a lot like "she wasn't that hot anyway"

Carlisle would of been an incredible get for Hawthorn, imagine him and Frawley in defence for another 6 years! Sure he seems like a bit of a dick, but so what... He is a very, very good player and nobody is going to give a s**t about his recent 'issue' come round 1 next year.

 

[dean31]

This reads a lot like "she wasn't that hot anyway"

Carlisle would of been an incredible get for Hawthorn, imagine him and Frawley in defence for another 6 years! Sure he seems like a bit of a dick, but so what... He is a very, very good player and nobody is going to give a s**t about his recent 'issue' come round 1 next year.

You can read it however you like.
I was not that happy when I heard Hawks were making a play for him. I certainly would not have wanted them paying overs to stingy arse Essendon for him. Obviously I don't know all the details but the Hawks were offering less and CokeLisle was chasing money and now he has fleeced the Saints for far more than he is worth.
After years of the Hawks trading their draft picks away I wanted them to go to the draft.

 

[Kwality]

You can read it however you like.
I was not that happy when I heard Hawks were making a play for him. I certainly would not have wanted them paying overs to stingy arse Essendon for him. Obviously I don't know all the details but the Hawks were offering less and CokeLisle was chasing money and now he has fleeced the Saints for far more than he is worth.
After years of the Hawks trading their draft picks away I wanted them to go to the draft.

The current recruiting strategy of the Hawks is very successful & & you want to change it because .... ??

 

[dean31]

The current recruiting strategy of the Hawks is very successful & & you want to change it because .... ??

So you have never had an opinion on anything to do with your club?
West Coast are the equal second most successful club in terms of premierships won in the AFL era. Seems they do well and don't need the opinion of fans.

Hawks have been successful and a lot of that has to do with players been willing to play for the Hawks at under market value.
From memory the Hawks were offering around $600,000 for Cokelisle which in my opinion is about 100,000 to 150,000 more than he is worth, and that not even taking into account the dick head factor. The Saints I think are paying him around $800,000, way way overs.

My condolences for 91,2015
Hawks 2 vs Eagles 0

 

[Kwality]

So you have never had an opinion on anything to do with your club?
West Coast are the equal second most successful club in terms of premierships won in the AFL era. Seems they do well and don't need the opinion of fans.

Hawks have been successful and a lot of that has to do with players been willing to play for the Hawks at under market value.
From memory the Hawks were offering around $600,000 for Cokelisle which in my opinion is about 100,000 to 150,000 more than he is worth, and that not even taking into account the dick head factor. The Saints I think are paying him around $800,000, way way overs.

My condolences for 91,2015
Hawks 2 vs Eagles 0

Sorry for acknowledging the Hawks strategy, given their success doesn't allow them early draft picks - in most aspects on & off field, they demonstrate strong leadership, & I am surprised you advocate a change in strategy.
As for Carlisle I'm not sure what was printed about the dollars offered (or many others) should be taken as gospel - IF he is up to it, he will give Saints fans good value. Fortunately the Eagles weren't interested.

PS: the Hawks best victory over the Eagles IMHO was the first ever non Vic final in 1991:
September 8: The West Coast Eagles earned the right to host the first final ever played out of Melbourne. Unfortunately, Hawthorn prevailed in front of 44,142 fans, winning by 23 points.

 

[M Malice]

destination club?
2015- dayne beams, allen christensen, mitch robinson.
2016- tom bell, ryan bastinac, josh walker.