Development of junior batsmen

[The_Reaper]

Couldn't Klinger help Stoinis? And Rogers help Bancroft?

Point.

But one of the interesting comparisons is let's say Travis Dean and Cameron Bancroft. Both pretty good prospects as opening batsmen and since Joe Burns/Shaun Marsh are far from secure you'd think there might be a chance soon.

Bancroft played in 2013/14 and clearly wasn't up to it but would have gained a lot of experience from playing the whole season. He had a very good season in 2014/15 and while his 2015/16 wasn't as good he still scored 732 runs at 45.75 from 10 games.

Travis Dean didn't make his debut until 2015/16 so while he had a pretty decent season 807 runs at 44.83 from 11 games he would be behind Bancroft in terms of national selection because being able to prove you can back up a good season with another good season means a lot at the moment.

We have had plenty of batsmen in shield cricket who have had one good season and struggled since.

If Cricket Victoria didn't stick with confirmed dead ends like Aaron Finch, Dean may have had a better chance to stake his claim if a test spot opens up soon. Bancroft already got a chance to tour India with Australia A (and scored a century) and be Vice Captain of Australia A.

 

[Soups]

Really liking the look of Cartwright. Big strong lad who hits the ball hard. Also chimed in for two wickets against Aus A to go with his 81.

Peoples thoughts on him?

 

[The_Reaper]

Really liking the look of Cartwright. Big strong lad who hits the ball hard. Also chimed in for two wickets against Aus A to go with his 81.

Peoples thoughts on him?

I think he's a good prospect as a state cricketer but I'd rather see how he goes for WA this season before making any call beyond that.

Don't really think his bowling is good enough to make the jump up to international level

 

[Wolfs]

While I'm not even close to a good player. We do play a little T20 and the only difference is shorter boundaries and slogging shots. Isn't much difference than a normal OD or 2 dayer well at least for me because I play at a low level. The issue is just that v. spin on decks that cater to it and a lack of tour matches. It is going to be tough. The T20 pitches in the Sub-continent are different to the ones used in tests.

Like I said before. Just taught to play with hard hands. I always was taught that. A friend who grew up playing in India, he was taught to play with soft hands and maneuver the ball around v. spin. Also the normal pitches here bounce a lot and don't stay low, so harder to play the sweep shot.

T20 cricket isn't even close to the problem at all. The problem is just that Australia are playing against talented spinners on decks that suit them without much tour game practice and experienced line up.

Ponting was on several tours in the Asia, same with most of the great Aussie bats. Now I know that Gilchrist and Hayden did really well on their first tour of India but they had like a few lead up games against some quality sides before the 1st test. Also it's simply just application and executing which is why it always has been a challenge. It's hard to mentally keep on going without making a stupid mistake.

 

[gbatman]

Our batsmen seem to be well trained to bat in Australia but struggle elsewhere where it requires a different technique and footwork. Perhaps cricket dropped off and there just aren't the numbers? I know numbers have exploded which I have put down to the BBL popularity with kids. 20-30 years time hopefully that will filter through. We seem to be producing good one day cricketers and flat track bullies but not a load in regards to grafting test batsmen.

 

[grizzlym]

You're being lied to!

Club cricket is very similar now to what it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. Club cricket - from seniors even down to Under 11 and Under 12 level - play a combination of two day and one day matches the same as they have done for decades. It's traditional cricket, when-you're-out-you're out, the same as it's always been apart from some minor rule tweaks.

Largely cricket administrators at grass roots level HATE Twenty20 cricket like poison. Around every single club and association committee table in the country sits a group of predominantly old and middle aged men who cannot stomach seeing David Warner play a switch hit and it will be over their dead body that any kid at their club is EVER allowed to play this abomination.

Contrary to popular belief, Australian kids play very few T20 matches. At my premier grade club for instance there is no Twenty20 cricket below 1st Grade level if you can believe that.

At junior community level there will be a handful of games played on a weeknight through the season for a bit of fun. When the kids do get one of these rare chances to play a game of Twenty20 cricket I think people would be quite surprised at what they see. I think people have these visions of kids playing ramp shots and reverse sweeps. The reality is that the scoring rate and batting style differs little between two day, one day and T20 cricket at junior level. Most batters are scared of getting out and block the absolute living suitcase out of it. They need a bomb put under them in order to run a single - in any format. They'd rather get retired on 2* than risk getting out for 10. A few kids are sloggers - and they slog in T20, one day and two day cricket just the same.

*If* for instance India are still teaching "traditional" cricket techniques and we're not, then why do they still get blown to smithereens when they come out here? Their record here is as poor as ours is there. Surely the environment players have learned their cricket in plays the biggest role?

Australia played 35 test matches in total on the subcontinent through the 70's, 80's and 90's. Lillee, Marsh, Chappell, Chappell, Border, Boon, Waugh, Waugh, McGrath, Warne... we won four of them. And that was before the T20 ogre had raised its ugly head.



The really young kids are playing a "new" game called T20 Blast. The kids get shirts like the BBL teams. It's for 7 year olds - they play the exact same format I played as a 7 year old back in the 80's! Batting in pairs, fielders rotate around, everyone bats, everyone bowls. It's just been re-badged to cash in on the appeal T20 cricket has with young people, time poor families etc. The more things change, the more they stay the same!

One thing that has change (which you've alluded to here) is that now batters are forced to retire. This is correct. Up until about Under 13's the rules dictate that everyone must bat and every must bowl a certain number of overs. This is indeed a change and applies to the youngest age groups. It is exactly the same in England, South Africa and New Zealand.

It doesn't apply higher up - if kids from U/14 level and beyond are good enough to bat all day then they can as they've always been able to. Players start to specialise at that age group as batters/bowlers rather than everyone getting a go.

The reason it was changed at the younger age groups was because playing numbers at a junior level were declining rapidly. Cricket was getting it's ass kicked by sports like basketball that gave an opportunity for everyone to get on the court. The rules were changed to attract more players as not having a team was seen as the lesser of two evils.

Anyway... I've rambled almost long enough. Twenty20 cricket is about 10 years old and has become really big in the last 6 or 7 years. So any effect we see from the format won't be for a while yet. Our current test cricketers would have barely even heard of the format as kids.

I love your post about the junior system. My son is cricket obsessed - started with the T20 Blast and is about to start his under 14s career with two clubs... Yep, I've got the Friday noght games in one league, then backing up for Saturday morning games too. He's kind of blessed - like I wasn't - with a lot of natural ability, so the harder he works, the better he gets and the more he enjoys it. I love that.

My reason for relating that personal anecdote, apart from a small amount of parental pride, is that on the weekend he had his first training session with the seniors. he's 12. And sure, they didn;t bowl as hard, and took a little mercy on his bowling - but that A Grade bat who got castled won;t live it down in a hurry - but the point is he felt comfortable to go and train with them. and he felt safe too. which causes me to reflect...

When I played there was a fear of getting hurt. There was an agression in the game, and somehow injuring someone was legiitomately part of it. Couple that with limited use and very basic helmets, plus protective gear that was from another era, and cricket was dangerous. And it was accompanied by a kind of machismo. I saw it when I played. And I'll never forgetting facing Rodney Hogg in the nets - terrifying.

But my memory of playing, and what cricket was, has changed so much. The spirit of how the game is played, how it's run, how incusive it is. And with the pathways too - although, annoyingly those ol' boy networks and 'which club you play for' are still intact - are so mcu better articulated. I have nothing but the highest praise with how the junior game has been led and is being run, from the governing body right down to clubs. Now wonder the sport is booming.

As for T20 cricket - my son enjoys watching it, but he doesn;t play it. And he doesn;t emulate the shots. Indeed, I'd noted how many kids are being taught, in a very basic, the basics of the game. I've also noted that, by and large, the players with no technique but a decent eye are already getting sorted out. One of my kid's junior coaches said the other day: "by under 16s if you don;t have the basics, it's so much harder to learn, and you'll be found out... T20 comes later, not earlier..."

And my last point, dovetails into the previous one: you mentioned kids retiring at under 12s. That's so true. often when they hit 30 or 40, and in two years of watching under 12s A grade, almost every kid wants to bat as long as they can. Occupy the crease, hit runs, stay in there. I have't seen one ramp shot, no switch hitting, just kids, like generations before them, try to master the very basics of a technique that they hope to keep honing.

I love cricket. And I love how it's booming, how it's evolved. And I loive how much my son loves it. That he'll be five times the player I ever was, is also something I love too!

 

[Wolfs]

Having seen juniors play since I'm helping out a mate coach, I have not seen any reverse stuff or what not. The worst shot I've seen someone play was a leg glance that just popped up in the air and that wasn't even bad.

I think the system has been the same since I was a kid though I'm not old by any means. I just think that there's an overblown thing about 'Back in my day' all that stuff.

Sure a lot of kids want to be like Warner but they don't play the shots he does in the nets. I hope they don't in the games. I think the biggest issue with junior cricket will always be run calling (Still an issue with seniors)

 

[The Speaker]

After the worst batting performance by an Australian team in Australia in the last century, I thought this was worth bumping. The problem isn't just against spin.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

We should be hitting up Negan for a coaching role; one of the best batting performances of recent memory a few weeks back.

 

[The Passenger]

The problem isn't just against spin.

Spin, Swing and Seam. Any of the three and we are in big big trouble. This storm has been brewing for while.

The first thing CA need to do - Get down to grade cricket around the country. If it's anything like Sydney batsmen are getting all the way through the system barely playing on a moving deck at all. A never ending sea of pitches like roads across the Sydney basin. Plonk your foot down, swing through the line and everything will take care of itself.

320 is pretty much par score on day one of a first grade match in Sydney, and a 350 score is definitely not safe. My old club Easts have just chased down scores of 350 in 3 consecutive matches, including one over 400. I said to my old man bowlers have become such cannon fodder that clubs might as well pick 8 batsmen, a keeper and 2 bowlers. As long as a few batsmen can roll the arm over. Bowl first every match, let the opposition declare overnight somewhere around 5/350 to 400 and back yourself to chase the runs down.

In years gone by it was about low to mid 200's. Probably 240 was a par score, 300 was generally safe, and chasing down 350 was obscene. I remember one game about a year or two before Brad Haddin was a regular international and we chased down 450 with him and two other guys tonning up. That was completely ridiculous. No one could believe it. Now chasing down a 400+ score is impressive and not the norm, but it's certainly not unexpected.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

We want bowlers who can succeed on flat wickets through their own guile, speed and bounce.

And we want batters who can succeed on seaming wickets.

Trouble is that if we prepare flat wickets we develop flat track bully batters with no resilience.

If we prepare green, sporting wickets then grade cricket gets filled with pop gun medium pacers who are effective in those conditions but will never go further.

Rock and a hard place.

Ultimately you want a spicy variety of wickets within every competition that tests all facets of the game.

 

[The Passenger]

We want bowlers who can succeed on flat wickets through their own guile, speed and bounce.

And we want batters who can succeed on seaming wickets.

Trouble is that if we prepare flat wickets we develop flat track bully batters with no resilience.

If we prepare green, sporting wickets then grade cricket gets filled with pop gun medium pacers who are effective in those conditions but will never go further.

Rock and a hard place.

Ultimately you want a spicy variety of wickets within every competition that tests all facets of the game.

You just need a contest with a bat and ball and a some sort of variation of wickets from one ground to the next. Not just in the FC system but at club level too. A Flat wicket with a some grass in the right areas and - given club cricket is played one day a time - it would be nice if it cracks open a fraction at the end of that day.

Bare tracks are generally the worst for development. Teach poor techniques for batsmen and discourages bowlers. Guile, speed and bounce are generally rendered meaningless once a track hits a certain point.

In first grade cricket around the country if the groundsmen tallied up the amount of runs per wicket on day one of all his matches, he come to somewhere around 24 to 26 runs per wicket. That is the sweat spot at that level. Exclude day two because all sorts of permeations get thrown up around results, particularly late in the season as teams can start chasing outright results.

 

[gbatman]

We're flat track bullies. The ball moves it's important to be on the right foot. Our batsman just get caught out on the wrong foot all the time. Need more Chris Rogers type batsmen around. Batsmen who played it late and close to their bodies and didn't premeditate pushing onto the front foot. He was great against a moving ball. All our test players and aspiring test players need to be going over and playing county cricket every season and seeing as much swing and seam as possible. We're just in a real rut with batting talent and injured fast bowlers.

 

[Cynical Eagle]

My son has been playing cricket from Milo up to currently under 12s level. I would say he has received less than 2 hours coaching on batting technique in that entire period.

At our club / team, training has been focussed around all the general team aspects of cricket (fielding, backing up, running between wickets etc). Specialised / individualised training around batting and bowling is virtually non existant.

It's a shame as some of these kids would greatly benefit from some specialised batting and bowling coaching.

So from my experience, kids just aren't getting enough batting coaching at club level.

All that being said, I am greatful for all the time given up by volunteer coaches so that our kids can play the game.

Note - I am not a cricketer and that is why I haven't coached my kids teams.

 

[Wicked Lester]

So from my experience, kids just aren't getting enough batting coaching at club level.

All that being said, I am greatful for all the time given up by volunteer coaches so that our kids can play the game.

Note - I am not a cricketer and that is why I haven't coached my kids teams.

I coached an Under 12s team last year. We had one hour practice a week (an hour and a quarter if we were lucky), had 14 kids in the side (squad) and I tried to rotate them all through one, or (if we were lucky) two nets, in the hour. a few other parents would help out occasionally but more often than not it was just me. I'd have time for one or two quick comments per batsman to ask them to focus on something in particular before they faced their 20-30 balls (most of which slid down the leg side so were of little real use).

It's a tough gig. I told some of the parents involved that some kids could do with specialised batting coaching and to take them to an indoor cricket centre and pay for it. Some did, some didn't.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I coached an Under 12s team last year. We had one hour practice a week (an hour and a quarter if we were lucky), had 14 kids in the side (squad) and I tried to rotate them all through one, or (if we were lucky) two nets, in the hour. a few other parents would help out occasionally but more often than not it was just me. I'd have time for one or two quick comments per batsman to ask them to focus on something in particular before they faced their 20-30 balls (most of which slid down the leg side so were of little real use).

It's a tough gig. I told some of the parents involved that some kids could do with specialised batting coaching and to take them to an indoor cricket centre and pay for it. Some did, some didn't.

Haha, I reckon you just described 90% of junior training sessions! Tough gig and awesome of parents and volunteers to put their hands up. If the kids want to come the next week and the next season you're doing a good job!

 

[Damon_3388]

Really liking the look of Cartwright. Big strong lad who hits the ball hard. Also chimed in for two wickets against Aus A to go with his 81.

Peoples thoughts on him?

Should be playing for Zimbabwe, with Colin de Grandhomme

 

[Damon_3388]

I think he's a good prospect as a state cricketer but I'd rather see how he goes for WA this season before making any call beyond that.

Don't really think his bowling is good enough to make the jump up to international level

I think the decision needs to be made at some point whether he's a genuine all-rounder, capable of bowling 15 overs an innings, or if he's a batsman who can bowl say 5 overs as the 6th option if needed. If he doesn't get to bowl more at Shield level, and continued to be ineffective when he does, the decision will probably be made for him.

Really needs another two full Shield seasons before he should even be considered for anything higher, IMO.

 

[The Speaker]

I think the decision needs to be made at some point whether he's a genuine all-rounder, capable of bowling 15 overs an innings, or if he's a batsman who can bowl say 5 overs as the 6th option if needed. If he doesn't get to bowl more at Shield level, and continued to be ineffective when he does, the decision will probably be made for him.

Really needs another two full Shield seasons before he should even be considered for anything higher, IMO.

I think he could have a career like James Hopes, which is nothing to sniff at - though Hopes never got the chance to focus on his batting like Cartwright is.

 

[Damon_3388]

I think he could have a career like James Hopes, which is nothing to sniff at - though Hopes never got the chance to focus on his batting like Cartwright is.

To balance, Hopes was always a much better bowler, though, and was a master in old age. Averaged 33.78 with the bat and 23.16 with the ball (strike rate of 61.78, economy rate of 2.25) in his final six Shield seasons (47 matches), all of which came after his final game for Australia (an ODI in October 2010).

In a way, Hopes was the Test all-rounder that Australia has been looking for for years, yet he never got a chance at that level, and had his card marked as an international player long before he was done as a cricketer, probably because he didn't bowl fast or slog hard with the bat.

 

[Soups]

Should be playing for Zimbabwe, with Colin de Grandhomme

Hopefully he has a debut like him one day. He was on fire.

 

[Damon_3388]

Hopefully he has a debut like him one day. He was on fire.

What's funny is that he's far more known for his batting (like a Corey Anderson) than his bowling at domestic level. He's a good bowler, but probably though of as a bat at #6, 4th/5th bowler, proper all-rounders type at international level, not someone who would be one of your main strikers. I mean, he's had one FC 5-fer before this Test, three years ago.

 

[rippersnipper]

What's funny is that he's far more known for his batting (like a Corey Anderson) than his bowling at domestic level. He's a good bowler, but probably though of as a bat at #6, 4th/5th bowler, proper all-rounders type at international level, not someone who would be one of your main strikers. I mean, he's had one FC 5-fer before this Test, three years ago.

The ball was moving a mile and pakistan looked like us out there. Not quite sure what they were doing. It was still excellent bowling but coupled with terrible batting

 

[Damon_3388]

The ball was moving a mile and pakistan looked like us out there. Not quite sure what they were doing. It was still excellent bowling but coupled with terrible batting

Not sure why NZ are serving up Pakistan these green tops, which probably suit their strengths as much as any side in the world (albeit not with the bat in this game), while they gave Australia roads last summer. Would have thought they'd have given us the grass as well, to give themselves the best chance of winning.

 

[Soups]

Should be playing for Zimbabwe, with Colin de Grandhomme

My pick is in the One day squad. Hopefully he definitely has a debut like Grandhomme