Development of junior batsmen | Page 22 | BigFooty

Development of junior batsmen

Discussion in 'Cricket' started by 1990crow, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. Bomberboyokay

    Bomberboyokay Brownlow Medallist

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    If cricket was #1 we wouldn't even have this thread.
     

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  2. The Speaker

    The Speaker Sage

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    No, it says something about the fact that they have far, far more matches to put on offer than cricket does that they get a bigger rights deal.
     
  3. Bomberboyokay

    Bomberboyokay Brownlow Medallist

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    CA would be playing those games if they could more than double their rights. Evidently, that's not our reality.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  4. The Speaker

    The Speaker Sage

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    No they wouldn't.

    You are blinded by the dosh when it comes to cricket.
     
  5. Bomberboyokay

    Bomberboyokay Brownlow Medallist

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    Not blinded by anything. I'm going by real data and you're going by your vibe.
     
  6. thejockey

    thejockey Club Legend

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    A while ago a mate and I got asked to coach a rep under 12 side .
    It was an interesting experience for us both because we had zero experience with that age group since we had played under 12s

    First thing we noticed was the scoring through leg side or lack of it through the off side
    So during the trial games we took stats . Over 3 games our opposition scored something like 80% of their runs leg side.

    So during the carnival we got our bowlers and we had a few very good ones at that age group to channel the ball outside off stump. Teams basically couldn’t score against us .
    One team actually complained:)

    Out of the carnival I would say there was 1 bat per side who could play off side and this was the ‘cream’ of metro under 12 players .

    So it’s an interesting observation .
     
  7. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    Not an observation - it’s about and out fact - I’ve been on this for 20 pages...
     
  8. Drugs Are Bad Mackay?

    Drugs Are Bad Mackay? Moderator

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    It's amazing the difference in the standard of cricket when you see kids playing on good wickets with decent outfields.

    All of a sudden they can hit a cover drive and a cut shot that goes through the field.

    Crappy turf pitches that don't bounce much lead to a dot ball fest.

    Slow outfields with long grass mean that decent shots don't go anywhere. Can only score over the top and typically young players only have the power to hit over midwicket. Big kids score, little kids don't.

    Hard wickets with the big lip that's built up on either side of the pitch effectively act as shot stoppers.
     
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  9. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    When my young fellas were little fellas - I was Coach and Curator. I played my Under 13’s on the Turf at every possible opportunity. The bounce was more realistic and the standard infinitely better than playing on concrete - and every kid loved playing on turf
     
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  10. Drugs Are Bad Mackay?

    Drugs Are Bad Mackay? Moderator

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    Good turf decks you also get the benefit of the pitch square - a hard flat patch right next to the wicket. Shots that bounce off it come off with pace.

    Kids hit the same shot into lush grass and it goes nowhere
     
  11. Kram

    Kram I'll brik u

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    I learnt how to play offside through having a backyard where all the runs to be had were through there for a RH. Funnily enough even though I only started playing 'proper' games of cricket at 14 my batting technique wasn't too bad. Bowled off the wrong foot though.

    Never played much as an adult though, game just soaks up too much spare time and the heat especially in country WA is ****ed. Still used to grab the gear with flatmates on occasion and go down to the nets for a hit after work.
     

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  12. gbatman

    gbatman Brownlow Medallist

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    What gets me with the one day stuff is that these guys make heaps of runs at state level then become deer in the headlights V South Africa. I admit that South Africa's attack was about as good as it gets. It was a good few levels up from State ODI cricket but it was the same problems we see when guys get in the test team. An inability to get off strike and turn it over.

    I think because the problems aren't exposed at state level the batting coaches are ignoring the mindset issues. So it's a bit about coaches and a lot about the quality of state cricket. Looking back there were a lot of top bowlers out. This again is another issue. The top bowlers not playing state cricket.

    Little things you notice in ODI and Test batsmen who come in and fail is a lack of footwork. That's because they are well trained in T20 cricket and that works well enough at state level for other formats. Good batsmen look to get off strike, they are looking to score, not hit boundaries. This means they get good balls they are looking to get well behind it to hit it too the on side for a single or a two. We get guys who see a good ball and stand still and block it and it moves and they and up playing outside the line and knocking off. It's not a technique thing, these batsmen can play all the shots, it's a mindset thing. It's mindset that gets a batsmen in the right position and gets the feet moving and the technique, which I believe the all have, that does the rest.

    I think it can be overcome but it needs to be done with hours and hours of proper training. Net sessions wont do it. These guys need to get out into the middle of a ground, face good bowling and work on their mindset and movements for hours against good bowling. Hitting ones and twos. Timing over hitting. Moving to get in behind the ball. Looking to score on the on side. Looking to score off every ball and defending with their movements and defending when appropriate.

    Unfortunately this has not been pushed hard enough at state level and the small grounds and low bowling quality is not helping at state one day level.

    Talent will take a player a long long way but when you reach that level that matches you, then it becomes about mindset and technique. Only when playing at that level and training at the level you can develop those things.

    I would consider allowing state teams to import some players from overseas like they do in county cricket. For years the quality of our state comp has been one of the best in the world but when players can dominate that then made to look like mugs at international level then there is clearly a gulf. The mindset and technique of our batsmen just is not tested enough at that level so nothing gets done.
     
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  13. t_94

    t_94 Club Legend

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    Great post. Ill add dont play the one day competition on postage stamp grade grounds in September.
     
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  14. Drugs Are Bad Mackay?

    Drugs Are Bad Mackay? Moderator

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    Did the old fixturing where there were domestic one dayers intermingled between Shield games work better? Players had to be adept at mixing between formats, adjusting their games inside the same week sometimes.

    Now the one dayers, Shield games and T20s are played in large blocks and the 'skill' of adjusting your game depending on what is required has been lessened.

    Also because state cricket kicks off with the one dayers I imagine that most of the preseason has a white ball focus as that's what they encounter first. There is not a long lead in to the red ball season so is rehearsal for that getting ignored?
     
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  15. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    Technique is what you do under pressure - it's automatic. I've seen plenty of high talent players flog poor bowling, but as they go up levels they get found out. Technique shits all over talent at the high level every day of the week. The reason is they all have roughly the same levels of talent, technique and mindset sortthe wheat from the chaff.
     
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  16. gbatman

    gbatman Brownlow Medallist

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    There's no doubt but you do need both at the highest level. Some batsmen get the best out of themselves with technique but not having much batting ability. You see a lot of tail enders who can hold a bat do that.

    The thing is that mindset is bigger. Our batsmen can play all the shots, there's no doubting that but they are thinking boundaries. Keep still, hit it hard. Which works when there isn't much movement but in Test and ODI cricket there is a bit there for the bowlers and when these guys see that they go into defensive mode and just block which isn't good either.

    You hear a lot of batsmen talk about trying to hit the ball for ones and twos. Graeme Smith was talking about it the other night. You can tall our guys don't think like that. One thing the really good batsmen do when batting is tough our they are getting in is really make strong front foot movements even to the point where they are thinking get forward and get across so you can hit through mid on - mid wicket for one or two. Ponting was great. He would move across to the ball so much it would chase the batsmen away from a good around off stump line and when they got too wide he'd just leave it. When the did bown a good line they would go for one or two and eventually when he got in then the runs would start to flow.

    Our batsmen see good bowling and just let the bowlers bowl around off stump. Of you're thinking ok I'm going to get across to this and get it on the on side then when they bowl straight or around off the batsmen are right in behind it and are hitting it through the on side for ones and twos and the occasional boundary and the shore ticks over. Very hard to nick off to a ball you are right in behind.

    You hear great batsmen talk about looking to score. Well their definition of looking to score is different from the T20 style of batsmen we are producing. Looking to score isn't hitting boundaries it's scoring. Ones, twos etc. When the bowling is good we are looking to survive and all good cricket people know looking to survive is how you go out.

    When you are looking to score and looking to play onside and get in behind it. That's when the foot movement comes, that's when the technique comes, that's when the batsmen makes the bowler bowle to their liking and the score starts to tick over. That's also when the good off side shots come too because the batsmen are actually across and forward to the wide deliveries.

    All our good batsmen of the past would score of the bowling was too straight and all our good batsmen always had positive foot movement forward and across and it isn't about technique it's about mindset.

    You fix the mindset of these guys and you will create some good batsmen. The only way it can be done is with old fashion center wicket training at international and state level and just work on it. Repetition. Over and over again and work on reprogramming the mind. Get these guys thinking ones and twos, onside play, getting across and all the shots and technique will come.
     
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  17. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    I don't agree that technique will come - the players we have now are as you have described perfectly, 4 or nothing. It is ingrained in them - it is their technique. Play any form of community cricket, very few can bat time, time to save a game, time to wear down good bowling, bowl four ball that aren't scored off and ball five will be a heave across the line. I don't rate Finch and there's a reason he doesn't open for Victoria, yet he's going to open for Australia - FMD!

    It's idiotic to think you can retrofit technique at a later point in time - yet that's what CA and the pathways think they can do. I'm totally in the opposite corner to them and I think at the moment the evidence supports my theories. And I didn't just jump on this bandwagon recently - I've been on it for years and in the words of former Australia Baseball coach Jon Deeble- "I'm not ******* wrong!"
     
  18. Adelaide Hawk

    Adelaide Hawk Hall of Famer

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    Yes, teach a batsman good technique and they will adapt to any form of cricket served up to them. Without technique, they are lost in the wilderness. You want to hear something funny? I went into an ODI thread for entertainment reasons only, and I saw a poster suggesting the reason Australia is struggling in T20 and ODIs is because they place far to much emphasis on Test cricket. It took me awhile to stop laughing :)
     
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  19. gbatman

    gbatman Brownlow Medallist

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    I think what you're calling technique I am calling approach. Technique is a players ability to play particular shots which the all can do. Forward defence, back defence, cover drive, straight drive etc, how they play those shots is their technique.

    The only time a lot of these guys look technically poor when playing some shots is because they're feet aren't moving and they aren't in the right position. I don't think that's poor technique, I think that's poor mindset. Getting the feet moving and in the right place is not about technique, it's about mindset. I bet if you got these batsmen in the nets, gave them a few throw downs and got them playing particular shots they would do it technically perfect.

    Problem is on game day when things are unpredictable, quicker and an international bowler is trying to get them out, there is not time to identify a ball and just go ok, cover drive or on drive or forward defence. That's not how a good batsmen's mind works. Good bats are thinking I'm going to get forward, across and right behind this ball and they do and what ever shot they play is reactionary. They pick up the line move forward and behind it and however the ball gets to them from there on is what shot they play.

    I think a lot of modern bats are waiting for the ball to come to them rather than going it it. They are waiting to see where it goes rather than just picking up the line and making that initial movement. Perhaps they are over coached and worried about shot selection too much rather than just letting that happen naturally. I don't know. What I do know is what is going on in the batsmen's heads when they are facing up is not right.

    Because that is not right the batsmen aren't getting into position and not moving their feet and that's why it looks like they have poor techniques when really it's a poor mindset.

    You get the feet and the body in the right place and the technique will follow.

    Inability to bat time is a great example of what's missing. Ones and twos. If you're going to bat time you need to keep the score ticking over. You always need to be looking to score because if you aren't your footwork will be bad and that will ruin your technique. Getting bogged down is also a way to set batsmen up to get them out mentally. Plus it allows bowlers to bowl where they want.

    I don't rate Finch either. I think he could be a very good number 5 or 6, but with the moving ball. Nope. Another batsmen who doesn't get his feet going early. Often nicking off standing still like a statue on the crease.

    It's not idiotic to think you can rectify a batsmen's technique or mindset at any age. How many times have you seen batsmen not make it until their mid or late 20's or even at 30? Off the top of my head, Mike Hussey and Matthew Hayden. Hayden got games early, failed, worked on his technique at state level and came back a gun. Hussey spent years refining his game until he became a dominant state player and then a dominant international player. If you were right and believed a batsmen cant turn it around because they are a little older then why is it so many players don't make it until they are in their late to mid 20's or even their 30's? Why do they bother having coaches at all? I've heard people in this thread suggest this and they are very very wrong. Blaming T20 is also wrong. Every country has their own T20 competition, everyone is playing it, so why is it to blame here and not elsewhere?

    I think we need to look at how our batsmen are training and how they are being coached. Are they being coached to play shots or are they being coached psychologically and taught how to think?

    You look at footage of Hayden, Ponting, Hussey etc. The efforts they went to to get their foot going and in the right place early. Big strides towards the ball, forward and across and pad out there when they left it. Balls bowled on or around off were played on the on side and often scored off. This mindset ment when cover drives were played the batsmen were weight forward, head near the ball and it looks perfect.

    It's not technique, it's mindset. I have no doubt that if you can change how these players think, simplify it and get them thinking forward and behind or inside the line. That will get the footwork going and if the footwork is right then the technique will be right.

    I think a lot of the commentators are right. Throw downs, net sessions are all a waste. Must train the mind, skills and body, train with a purpose because I don't think we are.
     
  20. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    We’ll have to disagree - if your feet don’t go in the right place under pressure that’s technique - not mindset and as I said earlier I’m pretty confident that I’m not wrong
     
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  21. gbatman

    gbatman Brownlow Medallist

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    haha yes for sure, we will have to disagree as I am just as confident. I think footwork for a lot of really good batsmen is a mindset and it's that which creates a good technique. Especially when someone is bowling 140km/h plus, no doubt the feet move well before the batsman has selected a shot.
     
  22. thejockey

    thejockey Club Legend

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    Haven’t had a chance to read that far back

    It was an observation for me at that time because I hadn’t viewed an under 12 match for years since I had played in it.
    If coaches/managers take that as a given ( leg side play only )well I don’t think you get the development into the batting that you could
     
  23. Drugs Are Bad Mackay?

    Drugs Are Bad Mackay? Moderator

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    What about development of batsmen once they reach first class ranks?

    Quite a few states unearth new players and they burst onto the scene and look alright.

    Then other teams study them, see where they score, dry them up, frustrate them. Isolate a weakness.

    It gets harder once they know a bit about you. Pope and his wrong un a bowling example. Ferguson scored heavily square of the wicket on the offside early and teams started bowling very straight to him. Ross gets bounced every time he walks out there and never gets to face a spinner.

    It seems that when batters go through this 'second season blues' that they get weighed down by a few failures, by expectation. They don't continue to grow and develop their game.

    And efforts to evolve their game and tighten up eg Weatherald this season at the COE all winter just leads to them losing the natural strengths that made them a prospect in the first place.

    Development once players are in the system is another stage we seem to be faltering.
     
  24. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    I think it further strengthens my argument - in the “old days” when the underlying competitions were stronger you went back and worked on your weaknesses and came back a better player (Steve Waugh comes to mind). The competitions below are nowhere near the standard they once were and so you don’t get the competition needed to properly test technique and changes
     
  25. Gethelred

    Gethelred Norm Smith Medallist

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    If you're relying on the conception that they'll already think it's boring, then you've already lost them.

    Cricket is a captivating game, because it tests so many things about you. Can you concentrate on and off for hours on end? Can you keep your bat between the ball and the stumps over and over again? Can you pay attention, to know where the fielders are without looking at them? Can you clear the close boundary, or is the man out there a risk for you? Can you exploit the inadequacies of the field set, pinching singles wherever you can? Can you hit the stumps with a throw? Can you do it from anywhere? Can you bowl the ball on a patch to hit the top of the stumps? Can you drop your length to make the thing rear at them, towards their armpit? DO YOU KNOW WHEN TO DO IT, SO THEY DON'T HIT YOU FOR SIX??!!! Can you make the ball turn?

    If a skillful game is boring to watch, then why is Soccer the most popular sport in the world?

    Any coach worth their salt can make cricket an interesting game. Kids just want to play. If you let them cultivate bad habits, unless later on they're willing to put in hours of work to fix what have become their natural reactions they're stuck with them, and will be worse cricketers for it. My cynicism entails that the reason they're driving participation is purely to increase casual understanding of the game amongst youngsters in order to sell big bash tickets going forward.
     
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