Development of junior batsmen | Page 23 | BigFooty

Development of junior batsmen

Discussion in 'Cricket' started by 1990crow, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. Adelaide Hawk

    Adelaide Hawk Hall of Famer

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    It would be easier for cricketers to play n England because it is off-season for many players. It may be worth remembering that England was the top dog of world cricket in the early 1970s when just about every class cricketer went there to earn an income. The immediate effect was a higher quality of cricket. The downside was in order to earn their incomes, international players were expected to do most of the work. By the mid 1970s we began to see a decline in the standard of England's Test team because good young players weren't coming through the system. They remained a very poor Test team for the better part of 30 years.

    In Sheffield Shield, we have seen this happen on a much lesser scale. Some states have deployed international players more than others. South Australia have brought Garfield Sobers and Barry Richards in to great effect. Sheffield Shields were won in SA, and the profile of cricket increased. However, their departures left massive voids and we saw South Australia greatly weakened by their absence. Short term fantastic, long term ineffective. It's interesting that the more successful states, NSW, Vic and WA rarely recruited overseas players.

    I've often advocated 1 season where we place all our emphasis on raising the profile of Sheffield Shield cricket. This would involve each state recruiting 2 overseas players for a season of Sheffield Shield matches as well as T20 and ODIs. It would also mean shelving BBL for 1 season and I can't see administrators agreeing to that. Also, getting players to sign for entire season when there are so many other ways to earn attractive money.

    So long as cricket remains a slave to the almighty dollar, and ignores the sacrifices the game needs to make, it will never improve.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  2. The Speaker

    The Speaker Sage

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    Sorry, who are these mythical individuals making tonnes of runs at state level?

    This is reminiscent of a Biblical parable. From Mark 4: "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.”

    Sounds to me like we're sowing seeds in rocky places with shallow soil. They spring up alright, but they don't have the deep roots of good development to keep them going, so as soon as hardship comes, they wither away.

    Indeed. In persuasion terms, it's the opposite of talking past the sale. You've already convinced them that cricket is inherently uninteresting by trying to 'make it interesting'.
     
  3. gbatman

    gbatman Brownlow Medallist

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    There were 13 players who averaged over 50 in the JLT One Day series this season.
     
  4. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    Played on postage stamps with white balls - as a form guide for selecting test match batsmen - deal me out. I don't see three slips and a gully in many (any) JLT games - there's the problem right there
     
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  5. Gethelred

    Gethelred Norm Smith Medallist

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    Small grounds, flat decks.

    Give me juniors who've had to fight for every run, give me men who know what struggle is, give me talent and let me bloody their nose a little, and I'll show you a bat likely to make runs at test level. What we should be looking for in Australia is the next Graham Smith rather than the next Mark Waugh, Ricky Ponting; we don't need the runs to be pretty, we just need them in the book. I want to be looking back and thinking, "How the **** is he still out there? That's the shittest 89 I've ever seen!", instead of thinking (ala Marcus Harris) "Well, that 26 was good and promising. Hopefully he goes on and makes something of himself!"

    We've got the wrong attitude here. We take talent at face value, glorify attractive strokes rather than the genuine runmakers. Need to approach the situation differently, look at the actual combinations of players that work better (right hand vs left hand, front foot player as in Matthew Hayden-esque punisher down the ground versus back foot player like Handscomb) and we need to try and approach the sport with the appropriate level of respect, both for ourselves and our opposition.

    Harris could still go on and make a go of it, but we needed him - and Handscomb - to stick through the hard patch, grind their jaw, and think, "**** them if they're thinking of getting me out. I'll block all day. I'll block all of tomorrow. I'll block until the test is ******* over, but you pricks ain't getting me out."

    We don't develop our juniors to be honest with themselves, and we don't develop that kind of bloodymindedness. We work on not getting bogged down, playing attractive cricket, imposing ourselves on our opponents. I saw the best junior talent I've ever seen last week, playing against my U15's side, a left hander who assessed the pitch, assessed the bowling and the field, and knew the game like Neo the matrix. He was never going to go out, not if he valued his wicket; that he did, for 41, is a testament to a) how lucky my boys were, as he went out chasing quick runs, and b) how unbelieveably lazy coaches are when they've got genuinely talented juniors in their side. They let them get away with murder, they let them do almost what they want just to keep them around. I don't have that luxury in my side; at best, I've a few decent A grade players, but they at least try their arses off to win, and to play well.

    Would, that the young talent in this country did the same.
     
  6. The Passenger

    The Passenger Mr. Mojo Risin'

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    Like you I plied my trade there for a number of seasons and it was incredibly tough cricket. Week-in-week-out with maybe only one or two soft opponents over the course of a season. We had plenty of guys come through from Perth, Adelaide and Queensland who played first grade back home and got a serious reality check when they were shunted down to second - and sometimes third - grade and weren't exactly killing in the lower grades. The guys that came from Melbourne generally did alright as that is a strong competition too.
     
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  7. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    Beautiful, the problem being that the type of player you describe will not "emerge" through the talent pathways we have now. Mike Hussey told me himself that under the current system he wouldn't have made it - that is the tragedy in all of this.
     
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  8. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    I was on a selection panel that sent Kevin Geyer from 2nds to 3rds at Randwick after playing 1st Grade - the next year (having returned south of the border) I flick on the telly one dreary Sunday afternoon and he's playing for NSW in the Mercantile Mutual Cup.
     
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  9. big_e

    big_e Premiership Player

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    How so?

    He played state u/17s, u19s, national u/19s, FC debut at 20 years old. Pretty stock-standard move through the pathway, I'd have thought.
     
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  10. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    He reckons his type (small, not a big player) would now get missed - that’s was his observation not mine
     
  11. gbatman

    gbatman Brownlow Medallist

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    True, plus the quality of bowlers who were not playing during that series was significant.

    I'm not suggesting the JLT is a platform for test selection. I'm talking about our ODI batting which exposed a great problem with the mindset and therefore the footwork of our incoming batsmen. I think ODI cricket can be a good platform for Test matches as the mindset and footwork for both formats are very similar whereas the T20 is not. Unfortunately a lot of our batsmen during the one dayers were very much in a T20 mindset and we saw some really poor footwork because of this.

    I still think that so many batsmen scoring so big in the JLT series and very few unable to score in the ODIs is a problem.
     

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  12. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    The gap between elite and first class is increasing - similarly between fc & grade
     
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  13. Ohitsthatguy

    Ohitsthatguy Senior List

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  14. Damon_3388

    Damon_3388 Brownlow Medallist

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    I think not using the JLT Cup as a formline/guide for ODI selection in the same summer is the problem.

    Being among top run scorers and wicket-takers in the domestic one-day comp rarely seems to lead to ODI selection.

    Bizarrely, it does lead to Test or T20I selection sometimes, though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018 at 6:49 PM
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  15. The Speaker

    The Speaker Sage

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    Theory: our tail-enders have regularly done better than our top order for a number of years, because when they seek to improve their techniques they go back to the basics, and their mentality is of survival.
     
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  16. Gethelred

    Gethelred Norm Smith Medallist

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    And our tail enders have the right mentality when they go out there to bat; take it 10 runs at a time, break it down into manageable chunks, forget the ball just gone, play each on its merit, respect the bowler but not the ball.

    That, and it somehow matters to them a whole heap more. Bowlers are born competitors, desperate to taste victory, and it gets worse the higher quality of cricket you play.
     
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  17. baz_machine

    baz_machine Club Legend

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    Just reverse the order. I'd much prefer Lyon seeing off the new ball than Finch
     
  18. Dragz

    Dragz Club Legend

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    Most issues have been covered in previous posts.
    One of the WORST things that has been done across the States, is playing blokes based on "Talent" rather than "Performance".
    Jonathon Wells for Tassie (And now WA?) is a great example. Averages early 20's...after 100 plus innings... As an Opener/Middle order batsman.
    No idea why he kept getting a go. He's not going to get any better or any more consistent.

    Now, i don't coach juniors (at least, not yet) but i remember these words being drilled into me "You can't get caught if you hit it along the ground" and "Value your wicket". One coach had us doing push ups if you hit the ball in the air during a net session.
    I suspect one issue for a lot of these blokes is they don't value their wicket. You can afford to have one player at the top of your order like that. You can't afford a bunch of them. Nor is the mental toughness there. Look at Khawaja's shot to get out in the 2nd. He's struggled on and off over his career to score runs that aren't boundaries and that got him out again.

    Get some decent batting coaches to teach people how to bat. Weight forward over the ball. The basics are exactly that for a reason. Once you've got the basics, then you can play your ramp shots and reverse sweeps and other stuff.
     
  19. western royboy

    western royboy Brownlow Medallist

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    You speak the truth - unfortunately this is considered pre historic in the current group think coaching circles. I am a Level 2 or “Representative Coach” in the system but I am effectively outside the tent because I won’t adhere to the current trends - why? Because they are wrong! The basics of the game have not changed in 100 years but all of these wankers infiltrated the game and what’s worse, the greatest proponents of technique in this country GS Chappell sold his soul for a pay cheque and threw away all his beliefs in order to “embrace change”. I was so disgusted with his sell out I roasted him at the Vic Coaches Seminar about 5 years ago. He was unable to give me any reasons as to why? One of the other coaches on the panel sort me out after and said “well done - you ****** him right up he had nothing and you were spot on”

    I don’t get an invite to that anymore...

    Not long after I was invited to do a session with some 13 year olds at a regional talent session. As I walked into the net - the clown running session said to the batsman “ok this ball has to go to fine leg” (the ball was about 5th stump line) I turned and walked out, the Coach came after me, wondering why - I told him I was the wrong man for the job, what he was doing was totally against my philosophy of batting. I know one thing - I’m not wrong.
     
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  20. Gough

    Gough Moderator

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    Interesting in the Australian first innings, Head and Handscomb were both out to what basically amounted to the glide to third man for a single through a vacant slips cordon and in a Test match that's known as catching practice. .
     
  21. gbatman

    gbatman Brownlow Medallist

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    All our batsmen have big problems with playing the ball outside the line. We have big knocking problems. The mindset of getting right in behind the ball is completely gone from Australian cricketers. A lot of balls that get blocked should be played defensively to the on side. A lot of offside shots like these glides, pokes and prods should be played straight or through the on side. A lot of our drives through to off side to wider balls are nicked by batsmen who are too far away from the ball. The only time our batsmen play through the onside is when it's bowled at them and they have to. To me this is a sign of poor though process creating poor footwork. Surely we have coaches who can recognise this and when can reprogram the thought process of these players.

    Less net batting. Less about how they are playing the shot and technique and more about thinking about getting in line and getting the feet to the right place I think. These guys can play all the shots they just aren't getting themselves in the right spots because they aren't thinking to.
     
  22. Larry Barnsworth

    Larry Barnsworth Previously Monstersnag87

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    Do we think the improvement of bat technology has impacted the development of junior batsmen at all?

    I ask as I haven't seen it mentioned in this (quite excellent) thread.

    Old bats had a sweet spot the size of a threepenny bit. Play a big shot and miss the centre and you'd probably be caught in the infield. Modern bat means rubbish shots might clear the infield so there's inherently less risk until you go up levels.

    I struggled to play a cut shot as a young bloke because my wrists weren't strong enough. Modern bats are so balanced and pick up so nice, I wonder if I could have with one?
     
  23. gbatman

    gbatman Brownlow Medallist

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    Better bats might encourage batsmen to hit in the air a bit but I don't think it makes much difference.

    T20 cricket is the problem for the demise of batting quality in some aspects but I think in other aspects its the coaching, quality of competition and ease of run scoring in our domestic one day comp.

    The mindset and technique for ODI and Test cricket is much the same except there more shots and aggression in ODI cricket and it has more teeing off periods. Good bats still think to get in behind the line of the ball, work the ball around and keep scoring. T20 has a completely different different mindset. It's more about keeping still, only making small movements and just watching the ball and hitting it hard. It's less about genuine front foot play and getting in behind the ball and more about keeping still. T20 cricket is where the money is at, especially for fringe and up and coming players so the focus is there. IMO it's too greater jump from T20 batting to ODI batting. Where as ODI batting and Test batting isn't a real change it's just a change in temperment.

    I think the real issue is coaching. State coaches are getting results from their players because the domestic ODI competition is a bit of a joke. It's just easy scoring and fails to expose poor batting. In the shield there are hundreds getting hit but no consistency. I think our coaches are training players to play the shots and have got the physical side of things down pat but from where I sit they are not training the players psychologically. There's a truck load of guys out there who can bat but they just don't go about it well.

    From what I see, I see batsmen come in who have good techniques and all the shots and good eyes but no tactics or plan and no idea how to approach the bowling.

    I just think it's a combination of there being too much focus on T20 cricket and poor batting coaching, not in the physical sense or technique sense but in the psychological sense and what should be going through their heads as batsmen.
     
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  24. Drugs Are Bad Mackay?

    Drugs Are Bad Mackay? Moderator

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    Time for a comeback!
     
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  25. Woody15

    Woody15 Club Legend

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    I had a look at the amount of Shield centuries being scored during the past 20 years and there appears to be a lower amount of centuries being scored since the Big Bash started. Last year was the lowest number of centuries scored in the past 20 seasons (52). Highest was 70 twice.

    What was noticeable was players scoring 5-8 centuries in a shield season. This appears to be much rarer lately. These days 3 will be enough to score the most in a season. Gone are the days of Bevan (8), Elliott (7), Hayden (7), Lehmann and Katich (6). Voges in 14/15 with 6 is pretty much the only player since early-mid 2000's to score 6 or more. Rogers is the last player with 5 in 08/09. There is just no consistency lately.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_series.html?id=114;type=trophy

    1997-98: 70
    1998-99: 68
    1999-00: 67 (6 by Lehmann)
    2000-01: 57 (6 by Katich)
    2001-02: 66
    2002-03: 58
    2003-04: 69 (7 by Elliott)
    2004-05: 65 (8 by Bevan)
    2005-06: 62
    2006-07: 60
    2007-08: 60
    2008-09: 68
    2009-10: 63
    2010-11: 55
    2011-12: 58
    2012-13: 58
    2013-14: 57
    2014-15: 70 (6 by Voges)
    2015-16: 64
    2016-17: 57
    2017-18: 52
     
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