Development of junior batsmen

[Torz]

Was that Wonderkid Patty McKenna??? It is really sad that he is lost to cricket

He was captain in the recent 19's tour to Sri Lanka. Didn't do that great.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Nowhere else has changed their junior programs to the extent that Australia has thouigh. Indian kids still play multi-day school cricket, this doesn't happen much in Australia (even where school cricket still exists).

Nah everywhere has changed. Just got different names - Kwik Cricket, Kiwi Cricket, Mini Cricket, in2cricket. All the same theme - shorter games, small teams, modified equipment, equal participation.

School cricket in Australia (colleges mostly) is predominantly two day matches, played on Saturdays across two weekends as it has always been.

South Africa runs U/13-U/19 championships for all their rep. teams and they play a combination of 2 day, 1 day and T20 matches.

 

[ROOTA#6]

He was captain in the recent 19's tour to Sri Lanka. Didn't do that great.

Still to have the captain of your under 19 national team walk away so soon after an overseas tour, especially considering he was only playing country footy is a worry I reckon

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Cricket doesn't have the neat and tidy entry point to the elite level that AFL football has here.

Draft, combine, national championships, two year contract. There is a career pathway mapped out with a salary tied in and a large pool or inductees every year.

Cricket is a bit more of a leap of faith into the unknown. You might play Shield or Australian cricket in your late teens or early 20's, more likely late 20's or even 30's. No guarantees and there are only a handful of spots.

The build up to your AFL draft year is becoming increasingly involved. It's no long at 17-18 that people are having to make the choice whether they play cricket or football. It happens at 12-13. Football clubs get $50k for every draftee that passes through their doors so they sell false hope to these kids to have as many as they can fully immersed in their programs. You need to do x, y and z if you're any chance to be drafted. Give up cricket, especially the fast bowlers, is nearly No 1 on their list of things to do.

Does cricket need to have a similar entry point?

 

[western royboy]

Cricket doesn't have the neat and tidy entry point to the elite level that AFL football has here.

Draft, combine, national championships, two year contract. There is a career pathway mapped out with a salary tied in and a large pool or inductees every year.

Cricket is a bit more of a leap of faith into the unknown. You might play Shield or Australian cricket in your late teens or early 20's, more likely late 20's or even 30's. No guarantees and there are only a handful of spots.

The build up to your AFL draft year is becoming increasingly involved. It's no long at 17-18 that people are having to make the choice whether they play cricket or football. It happens at 12-13. Football clubs get $50k for every draftee that passes through their doors so they sell false hope to these kids to have as many as they can fully immersed in their programs. You need to do x, y and z if you're any chance to be drafted. Give up cricket, especially the fast bowlers, is nearly No 1 on their list of things to do.

Does cricket need to have a similar entry point?

Unless cricket in Victoria makes some structural changes, you would be absolutely mad to choose cricket over footy. Alex Keath must sometimes reflect on his decision and think to himself, I got it wrong and the people who convinced me to go down this track let me down. Pat McKenna has made the right call, sadly his thinking is even if he doesn't make it as a footy player, he can still come back to cricket.

 

[The Passenger]

Does cricket need to have a similar entry point?

I'm not really sure it would work with Australian cricket. One of the overall aim of the states should be to create one successful team - Australia. So whilst being in competition they also need to work with each other to an extent.

The entry point is still essentially the same for cricket as it is for football, as it is for every sport - You're first professional contract. It's just there are different methods to get there for different sports.

I think one of the biggest things that has been touched on here is the changes to the cricket academy. Not sure why it changed from it's original format. Maybe it's successes where due to a freakish era of talent, or maybe it was one of the reasons for that era, or a combination of both. But either way, not really sure why there were changes.

 

[The_Reaper]

I'm not really sure it would work with Australian cricket. One of the overall aim of the states should be to create one successful team - Australia. So whilst being in competition they also need to work with each other to an extent.

The entry point is still essentially the same for cricket as it is for football, as it is for every sport - You're first professional contract. It's just there are different methods to get there for different sports.

I think one of the biggest things that has been touched on here is the changes to the cricket academy. Not sure why it changed from it's original format. Maybe it's successes where due to a freakish era of talent, or maybe it was one of the reasons for that era, or a combination of both. But either way, not really sure why there were changes.

Probably because the best young talent was playing for South Australia

 

[The Passenger]

Probably because the best young talent was playing for South Australia

I saw that mentioned earlier, but I don't recall guys playing for South Australia whilst at the academy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Cricket_Academy

Looking at that list Michael Bevan is the only non SA person who played for SA in 1989-90.

 

[Natho]

Over the last few years we have only really seen Warner and Smith take that next step. Time for someone else to put their hand up. Apart from Hughes we rarely see batsmen hit ton after ton in FC cricket. Burns and Doolan are in that 25-29 age bracket and barely would have 20 tons between them.

 

[Scotland]

I know precious little about junior cricket, but I notice a lot of 'state x recruits from other states because they want to win the shield' being posted a bit.

Firstly, isn't wanting to win the shield the whole point of shield cricket? Would Victoria or whoever else be better off just picking guys out of Victorian grade cricket?

Secondly, players moving often comes down to opportunity as much as poaching. Hughes, Khawaja, Bird, Gilchrist, Bevan all left NSW for one reason or another. When it comes to grooming players for test selection we want the best players we have playing FC cricket. It's better for Australian cricket if guys as talented as Hughes and Khawaja are playing FC cricket outside NSW than playing grade cricket.

Thirdly, plenty of players have joined NSW. Watson, Lyon, Hauritz, Katich, MacGill etc. Has NSW junior development been hampered?

 

[The_Reaper]

I know precious little about junior cricket, but I notice a lot of 'state x recruits from other states because they want to win the shield' being posted a bit.

Firstly, isn't wanting to win the shield the whole point of shield cricket? Would Victoria or whoever else be better off just picking guys out of Victorian grade cricket?

Secondly, players moving often comes down to opportunity as much as poaching. Hughes, Khawaja, Bird, Gilchrist, Bevan all left NSW for one reason or another. When it comes to grooming players for test selection we want the best players we have playing FC cricket. It's better for Australian cricket if guys as talented as Hughes and Khawaja are playing FC cricket outside NSW than playing grade cricket.

Thirdly, plenty of players have joined NSW. Watson, Lyon, Hauritz, Katich, MacGill etc. Has NSW junior development been hampered?

The NSW blokes you mention are test players.

Dan Christian and the like are mediocre journeymen who don't really offer anything.

Take WA for example. WA played the young players often when their performance didn't warrant it.
Mitch Marsh was carried but it helped him develop his game. He is now in the test team.
Cameron Bancroft averaged low 20s last season but played every game. He is now the second or third highest runscorer in shield cricket.

NSW give their young blokes gametime.

Victoria play a whole bunch of journeymen who aren't really developing test players.

The point of shield cricket should be to support the test team. Winning is important but developing international players is the goal.

 

[Hellgood]

The NSW blokes you mention are test players.

Dan Christian and the like are mediocre journeymen who don't really offer anything.

Take WA for example. WA played the young players often when their performance didn't warrant it.
Mitch Marsh was carried but it helped him develop his game. He is now in the test team.
Cameron Bancroft averaged low 20s last season but played every game. He is now the second or third highest runscorer in shield cricket.

NSW give their young blokes gametime.

Victoria play a whole bunch of journeymen who aren't really developing test players.

The point of shield cricket should be to support the test team. Winning is important but developing international players is the goal.

Last couple of years we've seen some guys who were derided as journeymen types early on in their careers find their niche and come into the discussion as potential international cricketers. Wasn't that long ago that Ryan Carters was considered a spud who'd shown far too little for the number of chances he'd received. Jon Wells was basically a walking wicket. Marcus Stoinis was a 'list clogger' low level talent. Joe Mennie's action used to be scoffed at. A couple of years back now, but Liam Davis suddenly flicked a switch to become a run making machine after being the source of many a Western Australian's frustration before his eye injury prevented him from backing it up.

Not saying that any of those blokes are going to make it to international cricket, but I think that with a little patience there is a lot more talent than we think out there.

 

[Slax]

The NSW blokes you mention are test players.

Dan Christian and the like are mediocre journeymen who don't really offer anything.

Take WA for example. WA played the young players often when their performance didn't warrant it.
Mitch Marsh was carried but it helped him develop his game. He is now in the test team.
Cameron Bancroft averaged low 20s last season but played every game. He is now the second or third highest runscorer in shield cricket.

NSW give their young blokes gametime.

Victoria play a whole bunch of journeymen who aren't really developing test players.

The point of shield cricket should be to support the test team. Winning is important but developing international players is the goal.

NSW cricket makes up half the registered players in the country, this means that the top level of club cricket is a much better testing ground for whether players are ready to play Shield cricket than other states.

 

[western royboy]

Last couple of years we've seen some guys who were derided as journeymen types early on in their careers find their niche and come into the discussion as potential international cricketers. Wasn't that long ago that Ryan Carters was considered a spud who'd shown far too little for the number of chances he'd received. Jon Wells was basically a walking wicket. Marcus Stoinis was a 'list clogger' low level talent. Joe Mennie's action used to be scoffed at. A couple of years back now, but Liam Davis suddenly flicked a switch to become a run making machine after being the source of many a Western Australian's frustration before his eye injury prevented him from backing it up.

Not saying that any of those blokes are going to make it to international cricket, but I think that with a little patience there is a lot more talent than we think out there.

There is talent, but the way the system is structured now it will take a long time for the talent to get thru the system with the necessary experience to be of tier 2 let alone tier 1 standard.

Read Mike Hussey's book he highlights my stance very clearly.

Under the current system if he started now he doesn't make it.

 

[QAFL_Fan]

That is true, but their is no Cricket Academy as such in terms of a live in set up like it was in Adelaide.

yes there is, but the intake is larger these days and they end up playing less cricket and doing more training. I personally don't think this is a good thing.

 

[western royboy]

yes there is, but the intake is larger these days and they end up playing less cricket and doing more training. I personally don't think this is a good thing.

I meant the concept where you are there for 12 months play cricket in the Adelaide Grade system etc, etc.

 

[QAFL_Fan]

Many of them live there for 12 months (or longer) but its used purely as a base, rather than as a permanent home.

They go on development tours and play in the futures league.

I personally reckon the futures league is a joke and we should return to 2nd XI cricket.

 

[The Passenger]

I'm not a fan of the Futures League.

A few years back there was back to back Futures League and 2nd XI games Victoria v NSW in Melbourne. I went to a day or two at both, and the difference in standard was incredible. The 2nd XI being much stronger. Ryan Carters played in both and tonned up in both. There was some good players in the Futures League - Sean Abbott, Garinder Sandhu, Ryan Carters, but overall they were still very young and just didn't have the intensity that the 2nd XI game had. Nick Bills was the quickest bowler I saw in that game and he has a bit of toe, but was genuine medium pace. Mark Cleary bowled at least a couple of yards quicker in the 2nd XI game.

So yeah I'd be much more in favour of going back to the 2nd XI format but with a definite directive that younger players should be promoted through. There is no point playing 33 year olds in those games for instance. But capping the over 23's at 3 per team is just silly.

Youth needs to be promoted, but they also need to playing against hardened adults who will truly test their skills. Playing against others the same age, whom they are a clear cut above just doesn't give them the contest they need to prepare for the next level.

 

[QAFL_Fan]

You will find that the 2nd XI competition has an unnatural bias to youngsters by default.

I know a few guys that played a bit of 2nd XI cricket, but once they saw the writing on the wall that they were likely never going to play first class cricket and were on the wrong side of 30, they opted to give it a miss even when selected due to other commitments.

Once you're 25+, have never held a state contract, have an established career and possibly a family - your interest in playing 2nd XI cricket dwindles pretty quickly. There are exceptions to this rule for sure, but its generally the case.

No need to enforce an age criteria when one can naturally occur anyway.

If we had the futures league 10 years ago, someone like Ryan Harris might have been lost to the game. He would have been forced out because he was too old at the age of 26!

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Definitely a middle ground between old 2nd XI and current Futures League needed.

Old system was good cricket but achieved nothing. Just contracted older guys who weren't getting a game supplementing their base contracts with match payments (not huge money but better than nothing).

Futures League too far away from Shield standard to carry any meaning.

 

[The Passenger]

Yeah it's a good point and states will mostly look to younger guys anyway. More just thinking if a state in their 2nd XI is picking 3 blokes over 30, and 3 more who are 28 or 29 then CA and the NSP would have a word to them and just tell them they're having a bit of a laugh with those sort of selection policies.

 

[western royboy]

I saw that mentioned earlier, but I don't recall guys playing for South Australia whilst at the academy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Cricket_Academy

Looking at that list Michael Bevan is the only non SA person who played for SA in 1989-90.

Pretty sure Darren Berry and Joe Scuderi played as well.

 

[The Passenger]

Pretty sure Darren Berry and Joe Scuderi played as well.

Yep good get. A couple of others that weren't on that list. Seems that it was more of an issue in the late 80's, early 90's than after. But I'm not so sure it was a major issue anyway.

I still much prefer the idea of a 12 month live in academy, then the current centre of excellence, which is also a good idea in itself. but one that would really compliment a live in academy.

In saying that I'd probably rather it up in Brisbane than Adelaide. Having them play on the Gabba is better experience than the AO IMO.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Definitely better having it in Brisbane. Can get turf facilities for much of the year

 

[bombersfan4000]

NSW cricket makes up half the registered players in the country, this means that the top level of club cricket is a much better testing ground for whether players are ready to play Shield cricket than other states.

That's an interesting stat. Do you have a link with the numbers?