Development of junior batsmen

[The Passenger]

Page is a very talented young player. He has previously had to play for his school (Rostrevor) on Saturdays during the term. The issue of schools not letting their best players play high level grade cricket is a big one here with the school standard being low but schools refusing to budge, particularly for those on scholarships (not sure if page is on a scholarship)

It's a major issue.

I don't know much about the structure of others states, but in Sydney school cricket is s**t. As a general rule, the best 1st XI players in the CAS and GPS would be decent 4th graders, maybe making a fist out of 3rd grade. But at least half (probably more) would not be up to 5th grade standard. So your week to week testing of the best cricketers, is just not even close to what they need to develop themselves.

And then every now and then you get one of the box like Matthew Nicholson or Ed Cowan. Cowan's family had to fight tooth and nail to let Cranbrook out of his final season of school cricket to play first grade. Eventually they relented. It was doing nothing for his cricket plundering runs in CAS 1sts, as he did for a few seasons. But that is few and far between. Most kids are forced to see out school cricket till the end.

One advantage of the Sydney system is that the private schools are heavily geared to rugby, so most of their development and scholarship money is pushed towards (and lately basketball from what I've been reading). I also suspect Sydney schools are pretty well aware of where they stand in the pecking order of cricket in this city, and that is right down the bottom.

Probably the easiest solution is to move 1st XI school cricket to a Sunday, but these schools are so damn protective and I dare suggest in other states are very delusional about their status as "cricketing factories". Why should we have to do anything for anyone.

Don't need to move all school cricket. Only 1st XI. Anyone good enough for grade cricket is good enough for 1st XI and they are the only ones really effected. The rest that play their junior club comps on Sunday's would be hurt by moving all school cricket.

 

[western royboy]

It's a major issue.

I don't know much about the structure of others states, but in Sydney school cricket is s**t. As a general rule, the best 1st XI players in the CAS and GPS would be decent 4th graders, maybe making a fist out of 3rd grade. But at least half (probably more) would not be up to 5th grade standard. So your week to week testing of the best cricketers, is just not even close to what they need to develop themselves.

And then every now and then you get one of the box like Matthew Nicholson or Ed Cowan. Cowan's family had to fight tooth and nail to let Cranbrook out of his final season of school cricket to play first grade. Eventually they relented. It was doing nothing for his cricket plundering runs in CAS 1sts, as he did for a few seasons. But that is few and far between. Most kids are forced to see out school cricket till the end.

One advantage of the Sydney system is that the private schools are heavily geared to rugby, so most of their development and scholarship money is pushed towards (and lately basketball from what I've been reading). I also suspect Sydney schools are pretty well aware of where they stand in the pecking order of cricket in this city, and that is right down the bottom.

Probably the easiest solution is to move 1st XI school cricket to a Sunday, but these schools are so damn protective and I dare suggest in other states are very delusional about their status as "cricketing factories". Why should we have to do anything for anyone.

Don't need to move all school cricket. Only 1st XI. Anyone good enough for grade cricket is good enough for 1st XI and they are the only ones really effected. The rest that play their junior club comps on Sunday's would be hurt by moving all school cricket.

Another layer of problems - Geelong Grammar / Scotch College amongst others have had very talented cricketers in Cricket scholarships like Easton Wood and Zac Merrett from down this way - where did they end up? On AFL lists!

 

[t_94]

It's a major issue.

I don't know much about the structure of others states, but in Sydney school cricket is s**t. As a general rule, the best 1st XI players in the CAS and GPS would be decent 4th graders, maybe making a fist out of 3rd grade. But at least half (probably more) would not be up to 5th grade standard. So your week to week testing of the best cricketers, is just not even close to what they need to develop themselves.

And then every now and then you get one of the box like Matthew Nicholson or Ed Cowan. Cowan's family had to fight tooth and nail to let Cranbrook out of his final season of school cricket to play first grade. Eventually they relented. It was doing nothing for his cricket plundering runs in CAS 1sts, as he did for a few seasons. But that is few and far between. Most kids are forced to see out school cricket till the end.

One advantage of the Sydney system is that the private schools are heavily geared to rugby, so most of their development and scholarship money is pushed towards (and lately basketball from what I've been reading). I also suspect Sydney schools are pretty well aware of where they stand in the pecking order of cricket in this city, and that is right down the bottom.

Probably the easiest solution is to move 1st XI school cricket to a Sunday, but these schools are so damn protective and I dare suggest in other states are very delusional about their status as "cricketing factories". Why should we have to do anything for anyone.

Don't need to move all school cricket. Only 1st XI. Anyone good enough for grade cricket is good enough for 1st XI and they are the only ones really effected. The rest that play their junior club comps on Sunday's would be hurt by moving all school cricket.

that sounds very similar to the standard in Adelaide. 4 or so decent players that could make a fist of it at a decent grade level and the rest who just get by through being the kids who are handy at most sports throughout school. Maybe one or two exceptions for the strongest schools. moving 1st 11 would solve these problems but at the moment it definitely weakens the grade competition.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Youngest age group for organised game U/12, keep scores - no ladders or finals or association awards. Everyone bats, everyone bowls. Double runs for shots past the stumps at the bowlers end.

Just on this one point, could that result in bowlers learning to bowl short in order to not give away double runs? I understand wanting to get batsmen to play straight, but if it came at the expense of bowlers learning appropriately is it worth it?
edit: Although I guess at that age, short bowling is just asking a for a cross-bat swipe down the pitch anyway. So maybe it wouldn't have that impact.

The "get the kids into senior cricket as soon as they are ready" appraoch is one I would endorse. You can only learn so much and develop so far dominating other kids.
As soon as it is practical (and safe) to do so, let everyone find their own level. Your level was, by all accounts, fairly high. Mine was as low you get. A few years of low grade bush league was getting pretty much the most out of my lack of talent.

 

[copthat]

Another layer of problems - Geelong Grammar / Scotch College amongst others have had very talented cricketers in Cricket scholarships like Easton Wood and Zac Merrett from down this way - where did they end up? On AFL lists!

Merrett was good but didn't quite have the ilk of his APS contemporaries a couple of years ahead (Keath, Buchanan, Gotch).

 

[The Passenger]

that sounds very similar to the standard in Adelaide. 4 or so decent players that could make a fist of it at a decent grade level and the rest who just get by through being the kids who are handy at most sports throughout school. Maybe one or two exceptions for the strongest schools. moving 1st 11 would solve these problems but at the moment it definitely weakens the grade competition.

Would I be right in saying there seem to be more good cricketers in SA who come through the private school system? Or any school which takes up there cricket on a Saturday? It may be wrong, but that's an impression I get.

In Sydney there are very few good cricketers coming through the school system. There are a few, and those few do have their development hurt. But the majority follow a standard path that is proven to work - junior club cricket, green shield (premier u/16 comp in Sydney which is attached to the grade competition so coaching levels high) and onto grade cricket when they're good enough. So because there aren't many who's development in stunted in school cricket, it doesn't really hurt NSW cricket as a whole.

 

[t_94]

Would I be right in saying there seem to be more good cricketers in SA who come through the private school system? Or any school which takes up there cricket on a Saturday? It may be wrong, but that's an impression I get.

In Sydney there are very few good cricketers coming through the school system. There are a few, and those few do have their development hurt. But the majority follow a standard path that is proven to work - junior club cricket, green shield (premier u/16 comp in Sydney which is attached to the grade competition so coaching levels high) and onto grade cricket when they're good enough. So because there aren't many who's development in stunted in school cricket, it doesn't really hurt NSW cricket as a whole.

I wouldn't be able to say with certainty, but my gut feel is that it is slightly skewed towards that direction. Never seen Sydney grade cricket but from what I can ascertain it is of a considerably higher standard than adelaide grade cricket.

The other thing is that forcing those players who are capable of playing first/ second grade at a high level is that it also hurts the kids that aren't as talented that are playing 1st 11 have to play against them and the gap is widened, so it really doesn't benefit anyone at all.

 

[The_Reaper]

Would I be right in saying there seem to be more good cricketers in SA who come through the private school system? Or any school which takes up there cricket on a Saturday? It may be wrong, but that's an impression I get.

In Sydney there are very few good cricketers coming through the school system. There are a few, and those few do have their development hurt. But the majority follow a standard path that is proven to work - junior club cricket, green shield (premier u/16 comp in Sydney which is attached to the grade competition so coaching levels high) and onto grade cricket when they're good enough. So because there aren't many who's development in stunted in school cricket, it doesn't really hurt NSW cricket as a whole.

WA cricket is dominated by the private schools

 

[GPW1]

Don't have anything much to add except that my junior career (u12/14's in early 90's ) consisted of 24 over matches, years before 20/20 was on the radar. I can't remember any coaching or game tactics geared towards scoring quickly. Retire at 28 runs and 5 overs per bowler (from memory, could be a slightly wrong). Coaching was basic, play straight / in the V and bowl to hit top of off.

My main point to express is that I, and many others, good players too, stopped playing at about 15-16 years of age. Majority seemed to be due to time involved to play a game. I started to play basketball due to early 90's Jordan led boom, and the fact that it takes up an hour of your Sat morn , rather than half a day. This would influence parents as well.

There may be a vicious circle, shorten games to keep kids/parents involved, lose skills/technique due to playing shortened game.

 

[TigerCraig]

There may be a vicious circle, shorten games to keep kids/parents involved, lose skills/technique due to playing shortened game.

The other problem with shortened games is for players who love bowling.

For example my son (16) is a reasonable left arm swing bowler. He played some junior reps but will never be a star, but loves bowling. He is indifferent about batting - typical innings at 10 or 11 is 4,4,out

In juniors and especially at state high school cricket (which is almost all mid week T20) he only gets to bowl 2 maybe 3 overs (as every one has to get a bowl) and in most games doesnt bat.

This year he has given up juniors and come to play park cricket with me. 35 over 1-dayers and 70 over 2 dayers, with a few T20 Sunday league games for a bit of fun. Gets to open the bowling and bowl 5-6 over spells and is happy as larry. But, if it wasnt for me playing he probably would have given it away

 

[getthefooty]

It's a major issue.

The thing is, in Victoria, 1st XI private school cricket is actually the only time that the format resembles something close to a longer version of the game in underage cricket. Play all afternoon Friday and all day Saturday, no limit on how long a team bats for. It depends on the year, but there is usually some pretty decent top end talent (though it does fall away, as you noted). It's the only time in my entire underage junior career I felt like I was playing proper cricket. The 'junior pathway' system is a joke, full of limited overs cricket and coaches that don't want to be there.

District cricket somehow needs to be emphasised as the place to go to as soon as possible for young cricketers. Right now there are too many talented players lost to the system, that end up playing suburban cricket or just withdrawing entirely.

 

[western royboy]

The other problem with shortened games is for players who love bowling.

For example my son (16) is a reasonable left arm swing bowler. He played some junior reps but will never be a star, but loves bowling. He is indifferent about batting - typical innings at 10 or 11 is 4,4,out

In juniors and especially at state high school cricket (which is almost all mid week T20) he only gets to bowl 2 maybe 3 overs (as every one has to get a bowl) and in most games doesnt bat.

This year he has given up juniors and come to play park cricket with me. 35 over 1-dayers and 70 over 2 dayers, with a few T20 Sunday league games for a bit of fun. Gets to open the bowling and bowl 5-6 over spells and is happy as larry. But, if it wasnt for me playing he probably would have given it away

Again spot on an symptomatic of the issues, dumming the game down stuffs it up for everyone - the good, the bad and the ugly.

Moving forward the only way kids will learn the game properly is if there Dads are cricketers or they go to cricket schools and get coached by professional coaches.

Anyone else who gets through will have to be a freak. The last two batting prodigys in Ponting and Clarke were both from cricketing families and had lots and lots of coaching from a young age.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Again spot on an symptomatic of the issues, dumming the game down stuffs it up for everyone - the good, the bad and the ugly.

Moving forward the only way kids will learn the game properly is if there Dads are cricketers or they go to cricket schools and get coached by professional coaches.

Anyone else who gets through will have to be a freak. The last two batting prodigys in Ponting and Clarke were both from cricketing families and had lots and lots of coaching from a young age.

When I look back, I received bugger all really good coaching in cricket as an underage player. Some of the teams I played in at school had well meaning teachers looking after the teams, but they really didn't teach me anything. Most of my cricket knowledge was attained from reading cricket books. Even going out to a grade club didn't help me a lot, I just decided to watch and learn from the better players.

Most of my understanding of cricket, and the way I modelled myself as a player came from watching and listening to the likes of Ian Chappell, Barry Richards, Gary Sobers, Greg Chappell, etc. Because they had superior skill, I naturally assumed they knew more about the game. I also never had dad driving me around to matches and showing an interest, I found my own way to matches.

We read and hear about players such as the Chappells, Ponting, Clarke, etc, and all the family support they received as juniors. I saw that for myself playing against David Hookes who had a father and mother who drove him everywhere and gave great encouragement to their son. Me, I was on the bus. In retrospect, I was up against it from day 1, and had to determine my own path through the cricket world.

I raise this point because there are a lot of cricketers out there who are learning their cricket from watching and learning from current day players, and look at what they are learning from. Ramp shots, reverse sweeps, etc, I have genuine concern for the standard of the next level of player when it comes to Test batting, where application and technique are the key ingredients.

I'm a huge fan of Steve Smith, have been since I first saw him play. He's been in great form this season, so how disappointed do you think I was to see the shot he got out on when 192? That shot was an abomination and he should hang his head with shame. He'd batted so beautifully to get to 192, several attractive shots for boundaries to take him to that tally, he wasn't starved of options to score. So what was going through his head to make him play that shot?

Test double hundreds are hard to attain, many top batsmen never get there, and Smith just throws it away. Young players would be thinking, "Well, if that shot's good enough for the Test captain, it's good enough for us".

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Never seen Sydney grade cricket but from what I can ascertain it is of a considerably higher standard than adelaide grade cricket.

I can assure you that is the case. Far superior.

 

[western royboy]

When I look back, I received bugger all really good coaching in cricket as an underage player. Some of the teams I played in at school had well meaning teachers looking after the teams, but they really didn't teach me anything. Most of my cricket knowledge was attained from reading cricket books. Even going out to a grade club didn't help me a lot, I just decided to watch and learn from the better players.

Most of my understanding of cricket, and the way I modelled myself as a player came from watching and listening to the likes of Ian Chappell, Barry Richards, Gary Sobers, Greg Chappell, etc. Because they had superior skill, I naturally assumed they knew more about the game. I also never had dad driving me around to matches and showing an interest, I found my own way to matches.

We read and hear about players such as the Chappells, Ponting, Clarke, etc, and all the family support they received as juniors. I saw that for myself playing against David Hookes who had a father and mother who drove him everywhere and gave great encouragement to their son. Me, I was on the bus. In retrospect, I was up against it from day 1, and had to determine my own path through the cricket world.

I raise this point because there are a lot of cricketers out there who are learning their cricket from watching and learning from current day players, and look at what they are learning from. Ramp shots, reverse sweeps, etc, I have genuine concern for the standard of the next level of player when it comes to Test batting, where application and technique are the key ingredients.

I'm a huge fan of Steve Smith, have been since I first saw him play. He's been in great form this season, so how disappointed do you think I was to see the shot he got out on when 192? That shot was an abomination and he should hang his head with shame. He'd batted so beautifully to get to 192, several attractive shots for boundaries to take him to that tally, he wasn't starved of options to score. So what was going through his head to make him play that shot?

Test double hundreds are hard to attain, many top batsmen never get there, and Smith just throws it away. Young players would be thinking, "Well, if that shot's good enough for the Test captain, it's good enough for us".

I must admit, I had no formal coaching, until I was in my 20's. I was fortunate to get to a reasonable level through the methods you have outlined, but the flaws in my game that were not detected / pointed out ultimately held me back. I often wonder what might of been different had the simple things been identified and rectified at the right time. I loved Kepler Wessels for a time, being a small left hander - I still play around my front pad a bit as a result. But no one knew or certainly didn't tell me it might cause me some issues down the track. I did a level 2 course on my early 30's with the Bushrangers, learnt more in two days than I had in the 20 years prior. Perhaps that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it certainly lined everything up. I became a better batsman overnight. Cricket is a game that you never stop learning, but I go to Soccer for the best piece of advice and that came from Arsene Wenger who said when he looked for kids at the Arsenal academy, the one thing he looked for was technique. He reasoned that he could teach or improve the rest but if the kid did not have correct technique at 14 he would never have it. I agree with him and that's why it is the basis of all my coaching.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Would I be right in saying there seem to be more good cricketers in SA who come through the private school system? Or any school which takes up there cricket on a Saturday? It may be wrong, but that's an impression I get.

I haven't really kept an eye on that of late. The SACA now have squads where they identify talent and younger players work through those squads. This type of thing never existed when I was around in the late 60s and 70s. It did seem that playing for certain schools provided more opportunities. Future Test players such as the Chappell brothers, Ashley Woodcock, Greg Blewett, Tim May were all schooled at the Princes Alfred College who awarded sporting scholarships.

There were exceptions of course, David Hookes who went to Thebarton HS, but it really did seem the college boys were better catered for. Most of the other SA Test players Les Favell, Ashley Mallett, Terry Jenner, Gary Cosier, Rodney Hogg, etc, all came from other states.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

When i was in juniors I had decent coaching by some grade players but I still did not develop that well. But that was more due to my partial colour blindness, same as chris rogers and it made batting far too hard for me to do.

However it did lead to me having one good defensive technique but I was not gonna score the runs to become a better batsmen.

 

[western royboy]

Sydney Grade Cricket is far and away the strongest in the land. I would put Brisbane and Perth on equal then Melbourne, then Adelaide and Tassie for obvious reasons. I have played in Sydney and Melbourne and have mates who have played in the others as well. Pretty confident in the rankings.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

The issue with spinners correlates directly with the slogging nature of junior rep sides and competitions. They get belted and pull the pin before they get anywhere near being ready.

All our spinners between Benaud and Warne were somewhere between average and garbage.

 

[western royboy]

All our spinners between Benaud and Warne were somewhere between average and garbage.

People query where are the Warne generation. They are everywhere, but if they keep getting belted by sloggers in short form Mickey Mouse competitions - they'll never get the chance to be average or ordinary. The handling of James Muirhead by Victoria is exhibit A.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Would I be right in saying there seem to be more good cricketers in SA who come through the private school system? Or any school which takes up there cricket on a Saturday? It may be wrong, but that's an impression I get.

Any kid who makes SA's U/13 state side has a scholarship thrown at them by the 4-5 main colleges. It used to be just football but cricket has become a much bigger focus over the last five seasons or so.

Any cricketer (country or metro) who emerges after that age gets snapped up too.

Recruiting talented cricketers has become very competitive. The colleges want to be able to show that their 1st XI is the best and that they produce all these state junior squad players, therefore their cricket program must be the best so please send your kids there for $20k a pop.

Reality is that these colleges 'produce' bugger all. The kids are already guns to begin with and the majority of their development comes from the squads or grade clubs they are involved with.

Then the colleges hold them back for years. Go SA!

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

People query where are the Warne generation. They are everywhere, but if they keep getting belted by sloggers in short form Mickey Mouse competitions - they'll never get the chance to be average or ordinary. The handling of James Muirhead by Victoria is exhibit A.

Where was the Benaud generation?

Maybe spin bowling is difficult and T20 is nothing to do with the 'problem'

The only spinner remotely close to test quality in Australia at the moment came via the T20 avenue, as did our best test batsman.

 

[western royboy]

Where was the Benaud generation?

Maybe spin bowling is difficult and T20 is nothing to do with the 'problem'

The only spinner remotely close to test quality in Australia at the moment came via the T20 avenue, as did our best test batsman.

Lyon and Warner may have been unearthed domestically by T20, both have classic techniques. People think Warner was just a slogger, but his hitting was based on a pretty good technique.

As for the Benaud generation, there were a lot of them, O'Keeffe, Jenner, Higgs, Sleep, Holland to name a few. A few were poorly handled, maybe a few not up to it, but there were plenty around. Yep spin bowLing is difficult, but it's not being made any easier in the current environment.

 

[ROOTA#6]

Where was the Benaud generation?

Maybe spin bowling is difficult and T20 is nothing to do with the 'problem'

The only spinner remotely close to test quality in Australia at the moment came via the T20 avenue, as did our best test batsman.

Talking about short form at junior level I reckon

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Talking about short form at junior level I reckon

Yep, no good spinners at senior level now because they're playing T20's as kids.

But no good spinners in the 70's or 80's and they weren't playing T20 as kids?

Everyone points the finger at T20 as the cause of every cricket ill. It's misdirected IMO.