Development or Winning

[tigerdownunder]

At the start of the season i think priority should be given to winning games, not in the extreme way still play some kids, but play tuck, king and maybe miller for the 1st couple games and go from there.

2nd half of the season if were 4-8 then i think most supporters aren't really too fussed if we're playing an under 21's side coz we'll probably arse a couple of wins anyway.

Just dont agree with miller. To me he is only in if we loose a forward.

 

[tigerdownunder]

I agree.

I'm torn with this.

Losing all the time wouldn't be good for the mindset of the players.

Winning is development. Imo we nearly had it right on thursday night. If King was able to play I would have had him in the side before helbig and this is not a knock on helbig I just believe of the 3 we played he was the least ready for the pace of the game. Dont forget we are developing ,Asthbury, Rance, Vickery, Martin, Cotchin and these guys need the winning feeling more often to enhance their development.

 

[NQTIGER]

Winning is development.

Developing a Winning CULTURE is development.

Developing playing one Quarter only IS NOT development.

Playing one quarter of football has been a problem for the RFC for how many years?

WE are developing a LOSING culture and that is so difficult to turn around.

 

[Bazzar]

Development - Grimes for Rance.
Winning - Moore,Thursty or Post for Rance.

 

[sante]

Got to win, but I'm happy with how we are going about it. The kids are getting their chances when deserved.

I completely understand where the club is at and that we have a long way to go, but it sucks that every year we look at it with not much hope for finals if any and we are more eager to see the kids run around, I can't wait to be excited about if we can make finals etc and come the latter part of the year, games meaning something.

I also hate that our answer to where the club thinks we'll be in 2011, is always that the win/loss ratio doesn't matter, I don't have a problem with it internally, but why make it public?

Hopefully 2012 will be when we make some inroads.

 

[The Goon]

I also hate that our answer to where the club thinks we'll be in 2011, is always that the win/loss ratio doesn't matter, I don't have a problem with it internally, but why make it public?

What would you preferred they said publicly? I prefer the honesty of this answer.

 

[Ralll]

Thats a hard question considering winning is the result of good development.

I think Telsar has the right idea

I don't think it's either/or, but rather how you balance them.

Last year was (almost) all about development..call it 90/10.

Thsi year, I'd like it a bit more balanced, but still leaning strongly towards development...say 70/30.

Next year, well, learning to win is part of development, so I'd be hoping for something like 40/60.

 

[The Goon]

Definitely development over winning. We have a ton of new players, we need to see what they are capable of and the only way to do this is play them in the AFL. The VFL is all well and good, but it's not the big time.

Any time an established but average player plays over a kid we're missing the chance to assess what they can achieve as soon as possible, and move them on if they're no good. I don't want to be in a position where 2 years from now we still don't know if player x is a spud or handy depth, and so keep them for another couple of years to find out.

Like last year, as the kids get experience and the structures click we'll win some games. Lids, Cotch and Dusty will have better and consistent games. Foley won't be ill. When we win we'll know it's because the foundations for future and continued success are working. To me experiencing the desperate hunger for a win won't generate a 'losing culture' - it'll only make a team that's been through it more determined to perform.

 

[Bojangles17]

there's only one single measure of progress in my mind and that is WINNING...anything else is completely subjective and can be twisted and contorted to suit an argument. Put simply, win against the odds and progress is elementary...exhibit A..Essendon..(pssst, if you wanna win some $$$$$, keep on backing them)

Exhibit B...continue losing and it makes in increasingly difficult to establish a case that what you are going is indeed the right path.

I expect a WIN ea week anything else feels like my nuts have gone through the mincer. Losing is completely and utterly intolerable

 

[jihg]

Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if I am repeating but where we are now is in the second year of a rebuild and with a very young list we are or should be fully into development of the kids we have. Getting games into the kids and building them up if we win games along the way well that is great but with develo0pment comes wins.

 

[captain blood 17]

We've been shortcutting for years and it's got us nowhere. I've waited this long, i can wait a little longer, so development for long term success. No short cuts.

 

[santa claws]

Reading through the board over the last few dayss it would appear that posters are torn between what they want from this year. Plenty of posters were jumping up and down that we failed to win on Thursday night, while some were pleased to see a performance that, overall, was an improvement on our previous 4 outings against the Blues.

the only thing ive got to comment on is i dont believe it was that much of an imptrovement on previous yrs apart from the scoreboard.
we were belted for 3 quarters and i find it amazing that people refuse to admit it could quite easily have been another 60 point plus hiding.

i wonder if people would be talking about improvement if it was another hiding.i very much doubt it.

we are looking for development of our younger players i dont believe we should be trying to further develop players who have shown themselves to be consistently ordinary over a pretty sustained period of time.

and i have to ask when talking about development and improvement it is all totally relevant to what other clubs achieve in these areas.
already i would say we were the worst performed side of rnd 1 based on opposition, skills, system, player quality, proven players.
most have been ripping into essendon port brisbane wce and north. id say they all showed more than us on the weekend.already im thinking 6 wins like last yr a very big ask indeed.

 

[santa claws]

oh have to add lets play as many jkids as possible and try to win as many as possible early in the yr.
i think most would have us not winning too many games me ive tipped us bottom 4 with the spoon on the cards so clearly for me its all about development.
if we happen to play some good footy have a few wins while playing a bunch of kids so be it.

what i cant abide is watching duds. a big part of good lis management is actually being capable of making a call on deficient players and only playing them on a needs basis.

 

[Goldust]

Winning is development.

Exactly... useless developing a team over four years that loses 80 t0 90% of its matches asmost players will be shown the door!

 

[TOOs_Finest]

the only thing ive got to comment on is i dont believe it was that much of an imptrovement on previous yrs apart from the scoreboard.
we were belted for 3 quarters and i find it amazing that people refuse to admit it could quite easily have been another 60 point plus hiding.

Because in games where we are competitive, and play like (you mention below) North, Port, Bris, WCE, but still lose... then certain posters will still come along and say it's not good enough. So when we are kind of made to look good by another team's bad kicking, people are well within their rights to say it as it is. We lost by 20, no less, no more.

most have been ripping into essendon port brisbane wce and north. id say they all showed more than us on the weekend.already im thinking 6 wins like last yr a very big ask indeed.

On that basis, we are well ahead of the Saints and Cats... seriously

Most people on here have stated in another thread that we are due around the 5-8 wins mark this year, our first step is to address the beltings. Like it or not, we did that in round 1. You don't know how the team would have responded if were were down 6 goals to 2 at qtr time. That's a completely different game and scenario, and as far as I can remember, you are not one who likes to live in fantasy land.

What we do know is that, given the chance, we had the fortitude to make a game of this by 3 qtr time, and even be well in front. We didn't do that last year. I don't care what players Carlton had out this year, they were missing Judd round 1 last year, and belted us. Judd is worth twice the lot they had out this year. And Moore is as valuable to us as any of the backs they had out are to them.

 

[Cathal Brugha]

Keep churning until the cream rises to the top. Start by giving Goo the task this week on Nick R.

 

[folester41]

if the players are developed the right way, and they work hard consistently, the wins will come.

its all about consistent performances.

 

[NQTIGER]

if the players are developed the right way, and they work hard consistently, the wins will come.

its all about consistent performances.

I saw that movie "if you build it, they will come"

Guess what it was just a movie.

You cant develop anything without developing a WINNING culture.

 

[_RT_]

the only thing ive got to comment on is i dont believe it was that much of an imptrovement on previous yrs apart from the scoreboard.
we were belted for 3 quarters and i find it amazing that people refuse to admit it could quite easily have been another 60 point plus hiding.

i wonder if people would be talking about improvement if it was another hiding.i very much doubt it.

we are looking for development of our younger players i dont believe we should be trying to further develop players who have shown themselves to be consistently ordinary over a pretty sustained period of time.

and i have to ask when talking about development and improvement it is all totally relevant to what other clubs achieve in these areas.
already i would say we were the worst performed side of rnd 1 based on opposition, skills, system, player quality, proven players.
most have been ripping into essendon port brisbane wce and north. id say they all showed more than us on the weekend.already im thinking 6 wins like last yr a very big ask indeed.

Sitting there at half time on Thursday night I fully expected the game to end up as a 10-12 goal hiding minimum. What I ended up being pleased about was that we were able to make a few structural changes, get our set ups in the middle right and were able to make Carlton look second rate for 30 minutes of footy. Not bad for a side that in previous years would have just rolled over. To me that is a massive improvement on what happened 12 months earlier.

Lets also remember that we did the exact same thing against Port in round 22 last year. near on 10 goals down at half time and instead of rolling over and getting reamed by 100 we fought back and ended up losing by only 10. Add that to the way we fought back in games against Sydney & Adelaide towards the end of last season and its a clear sign that things are starting to turn around in the regard and that we're developing nicely.

Its not always the margin that is a true indication of how well a side performs or doesn't perform. Malthouse was on ONEHD Wednesday night and was talking about them playing Carlton last year and on occassions he thought Carlton had dominated the play for parts of the game it was just that the Pies had kicked 2-3 goals a quarter more that saw them win by 8-9 goals.

 

[captain blood 17]

I asked Charlie Sheen what his response was. He was definately for "winning".

 

[jihg]

I saw that movie "if you build it, they will come"

Guess what it was just a movie.

You cant develop anything without developing a WINNING culture.

You can't develop a winning culture unless the players are developed correctly.

 

[santa claws]

Its not always the margin that is a true indication of how well a side performs or doesn't perform. Malthouse was on ONEHD Wednesday night and was talking about them playing Carlton last year and on occassions he thought Carlton had dominated the play for parts of the game it was just that the Pies had kicked 2-3 goals a quarter more that saw them win by 8-9 goals.

isnt that exactly what i said in my previous posts.
we finished within 20 points this time around but played just as poorly as last yr for 3 quarters.
i dont know what people think they were watching but i saw little actual improvement on last yr despite the closer score line hence the criticism.

i will say again i watched nearly every game this past weekend and going by what i saw i would not hesitate to say we were the worst performed side in the comp for 3 quarters.
even port who got thumped by the premiers showed more. god knows what the margin would have been this week if we actually playede a decent side like collingwood.make no mistake for big chunks of the game carlton were as bad as us.

battlers from last yr brisbane sheesh they should have won were cruelled by injury on the day.

freo went to the gabba minus about 8 regulars but found a way to win with a bit of luck.
north with about 7 regulars missing went to subi and could have won. the eagles last yr would have lost this game by a mile.still poor skills though.

essendon another battler well i dont like to say i said so but i said so.how should one go about building a team list again. do i hear anyone at all saying talls first.

melb and syd drew in far better standard game than the mistake riddled thursday night game even then carlton played a game almost totally devoid of structure and still won and if honest should have won easily.

stkilda and geelong played a shocking style of footy but both sides managed to strangle the life out of each other and thus execute their game plans well.

adelaide missed finals last yr but played some real good footy to come from behind and win in a decent overall game.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

I want to win, and development will come with that

 

[_RT_]

isnt that exactly what i said in my previous posts.
we finished within 20 points this time around but played just as poorly as last yr for 3 quarters.
i dont know what people think they were watching but i saw little actual improvement on last yr despite the closer score line hence the criticism.

i will say again i watched nearly every game this past weekend and going by what i saw i would not hesitate to say we were the worst performed side in the comp for 3 quarters.
even port who got thumped by the premiers showed more. god knows what the margin would have been this week if we actually playede a decent side like collingwood.make no mistake for big chunks of the game carlton were as bad as us.

battlers from last yr brisbane sheesh they should have won were cruelled by injury on the day.

freo went to the gabba minus about 8 regulars but found a way to win with a bit of luck.
north with about 7 regulars missing went to subi and could have won. the eagles last yr would have lost this game by a mile.still poor skills though.

essendon another battler well i dont like to say i said so but i said so.how should one go about building a team list again. do i hear anyone at all saying talls first.

melb and syd drew in far better standard game than the mistake riddled thursday night game even then carlton played a game almost totally devoid of structure and still won and if honest should have won easily.

stkilda and geelong played a shocking style of footy but both sides managed to strangle the life out of each other and thus execute their game plans well.

adelaide missed finals last yr but played some real good footy to come from behind and win in a decent overall game.

With the exception of West Coast every other side you have said we were worse than on the weekend were actually better than us last year.

The simple fact of the matter is we played shit footy for 3 quarters against a side that is pushing for the finals again and despite this lost by 20 points. So when you look at the overall picture and compare it to how our recent performances are against the same opposition have turned out I'm not sure how you can say that it wasn't an improvement. 7 months ago against the same opposition they kicked 3.7 in the first quarter, had 41 scoring shots for the match and went on to win by 89 points as we simply rolled over and spread our cheeks. This time around they kicked 2.8, ended up having 34 shots and only won by 20. Surely an 11 goal turn around is considered an improved performance, especially from a side that was probably just as young as the one that got thumped last year.

 

[Infamy]

I want us to win enough games to ensure we don't get the spoon, while playing as many kids as possible. The focus has to be on development with a dash of winning. I'd also like to see our % improve over 2010 by around 15% so it's much closer to 90%+

Way to start a flame war!
All we need is Bentleigh to come back and make an ass of himself.

Don't need him to come back but you can be sure that's what he's doing anyway