Development Vs Winning

[NQTIGER]

A lot has been said about us being a developing side and to excuse some of these losses, well I say that is bull Crap.

WE have perfected the art of losing so we dont need to develop that anymore, what we need to do is develop the CULTURE of winning.

Were the players hurt by the flogging they got from the cheats?

Probably not because as soon as the going got tough against the bummers then they reverted to the tried and proven method of turning it in.

This club has learnt to accept mediocrity and needs to quickly change.

Some people say that this isnt the case, but to say we are not reviewing the performance and stating that that "game was not us" is living in the surreal.


People say we have improved on last season, well the jury is out, last year we played a month or so of good football , this year we have done the same, so have we improved?

the pro development lobby will say we are getting games into the kids.



We cant use the excuse that we played sh!t last year with the bowdens, richos, browns etc in the side who were never going to be the future.


We had a lot of young kids in who have dissapeared off the radar, this year we have a bunch of young kids playing so we excuse them, will they still be playing in twelve months time or will we be developing AGAIN?


what happened to the development of NASON, Webberley, post, gourdis connors, astbury etc etc etc, well we have new development targets.

Conca , Helbig , batchelor, grimes. the others well they just didnt make it or suffered second year blues.

Next year the excuse will be we need to get games into the new recruits otherwise HOW WILL THEY DEVELOP and players like Conca , Helbig , batchelor, grimes will be suufering from second year blues,

Second year blues now that is another great excuse , Why hasnt Dustin suffered from them?

The club is willing to accept mediocrity and to change that it might mean get a malthouse, but that MAY also mean that hardwick has to go.

As allan jeans said ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY THE PRICE.

 

[Parquet Court]

though i hold grave fears for a lot of the current players on the tigers list it is too soon to make a judgement on a lot of players.

players like farmer, hislop, gourdis are definitely gawn.

the average length on an afl list is 4 years or something....matt white has been on our lsit for 7, says something about our list management and acceptance of mediocrity

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/search.php?searchid=7735382

 

[Toadvine]

Allistair Clarkson's second year at the Hawks was similar to Hardwicks with us.

Malthouse took Collingwood to the first round priority pick (Thomas) stages before taking them into the finals and beyond.

What did you expect Hardwick to acchieve in 18 months? He's turned over more than 20 players and got a side that was renowned for it's poor kicking to a side that was the 2nd most efficient user of the ball for much of this year behind Geelong.

Martin doesn't have second year blues because he is an elite ready made mid UNLIKE the other players you mentioned in Nason Webberley etc.

You can't say we abandoned Astbury's development, He had just some back from a spell in the 2's and had a major leg injury. That is why he's not playing in the one's.

Patience is key. How do you think Magpie fans felt when they finished 13th in 2004 and 2nd last in 2005? Where they accepting mediocrity? or keeping faith with a coach that was hell bent on achieving his goal no matter how painful the SHORT TERM may be...

 

[McGun]

We have to pump the game into the kids for the rest of the year. Next year our target has to be making the top eight or finishing just out of it. With Grimes, Astbury, Moore and even Conners fit next year will be good for our defense. It seems fairly certain that there will be a new ruckman which will make a huge impact.

I'm happy to sacrifice the rest of the year for development and the greater good for the club.

 

[mitch richmond]

Allistair Clarkson's second year at the Hawks was similar to Hardwicks with us.

Malthouse took Collingwood to the first round priority pick (Thomas) stages before taking them into the finals and beyond.

What did you expect Hardwick to acchieve in 18 months? He's turned over more than 20 players and got a side that was renowned for it's poor kicking to a side that was the 2nd most efficient user of the ball for much of this year behind Geelong.

Martin doesn't have second year blues because he is an elite ready made mid UNLIKE the other players you mentioned in Nason Webberley etc.

You can't say we abandoned Astbury's development, He had just some back from a spell in the 2's and had a major leg injury. That is why he's not playing in the one's.

Patience is key. How do you think Magpie fans felt when they finished 13th in 2004 and 2nd last in 2005? Where they accepting mediocrity? or keeping faith with a coach that was hell bent on achieving his goal no matter how painful the SHORT TERM may be...

You make some great points. Some people here won't accept reality. We are young and we lack experience. Hardwick has been there 18 months so not sure what people expected. We have some young players out (Grimes 19, Connors 22, Astbury 20) and a fit and firing Morton willl help next year aswell as a RUCKMAN.
It's hard to develop a culture of winning when we can't get the ball out of defence.
On a side note Richo, Bowden and Brown all retired at the end of '09.

 

[Slattery_20]

Delisted recycled players just don't work imo.

Harley, Mooney, Gilham, Guerra, Zac Dawson & Leigh Brown say hi.

It's a legitimate way to fill out your list - sure, you're unlikely to really find guns, but plenty of handy players come that way and I'd argue it's those consistent role players which are missing @ Richmond, rather than any major gaps elsewhere.
I don't think any club's list is good enough off to completely rule out any of the recruitment pathways (draft, rookies, mature state leagues, re-treads etc etc)

Malthouse took Collingwood to the first round priority pick (Thomas) stages before taking them into the finals and beyond.

Only if you completely ignore the couple of grand finals they played.

 

[TOOs_Finest]

Harley, Mooney, Gilham, Guerra, Zac Dawson & Leigh Brown say hi.

It's a legitimate way to fill out your list - sure, you're unlikely to really find guns, but plenty of handy players come that way and I'd argue it's those consistent role players which are missing @ Richmond, rather than any major gaps elsewhere.
I don't think any club's list is good enough off to completely rule out any of the recruitment pathways (draft, rookies, mature state leagues, re-treads etc etc)


Only if you completely ignore the couple of grand finals they played.

They didn't win either of those two GFs, which is what "to finals and beyond" would be referring to

But I think the point was that the list they went into last year's GF with contained very few players left over from the previous two GF attempts. Was there anyone playing on GF day last year left over from then?

Granted though that the players from the early 2000s played a part in the development of the list they have now. There was a fair overlap period.

 

[mitch richmond]

Harley, Mooney, Gilham, Guerra, Zac Dawson & Leigh Brown say hi.

It's a legitimate way to fill out your list - sure, you're unlikely to really find guns, but plenty of handy players come that way and I'd argue it's those consistent role players which are missing @ Richmond, rather than any major gaps elsewhere.
I don't think any club's list is good enough off to completely rule out any of the recruitment pathways (draft, rookies, mature state leagues, re-treads etc etc)


Only if you completely ignore the couple of grand finals they played.

Good point about recruiting. Craig Bolton, Stewart Dew and Andy Krakouer are/were handy players.
I'm pretty sure the point about Malthouse was that he went to the bottom before building the current team.

 

[Neen]

An interesting topic for discussion.

Northey had instilled a winning culture and Frawley also had the list regularly winning in his first couple of years. Since then, we have not had a "winning culture" over a sustained period of time.

We should be winning more games, by selecting the "best possible side to win the game". Over the past 4 weeks, we have not done that. We lose the possibility of winning the games because the sides have been more "experimental" than "the best possible side". I think Dimma is on the right track (long term), but by continually overlooking players that are performing at Coburg - he (and the match committee) are sending a poor message to the supporters and the players that are banging down the door to play seniors.

Develop the kids - have the youth policy, but compliment that development by selecting the best players available to you at the selection table. This increases the opportunity of winning games and instilling the culture. It has been "acceptable" for us to lose games, as we have the excuse of playing a lot of kids - But it is the passengers that let us down and the lack of leadership.

This year's Passengers - Edwards, Grigg, Jackson, Hislop, Farmer, Newman and Miller. Newman has lacked leadership, and that's not entirely his fault if we continue to pick sub standard teams.

We are missing players that we need to develop - Astbury, Connors and Grimes. We are missing players due to injury - Morton, White and Moore.

I think the missing player's would replace the Passengers, but that is obviously not possible. So I would have thought Tuck, Morton and Graham would be included NOW.

For me, the "winning culture" is on hold as we don't select the best team available to win games. Pretty simple, really. There needs to be a balance, and some common sense. I still cannot believe we went into a game (Essendon) without a Ruckman..

To create a winning culture, you need to win games. To win games, you need to pick players that will bleed for the jumper, instead of passengers to make up the numbers.

 

[Tiger2709]

A lot has been said about us being a developing side and to excuse some of these losses, well I say that is bull Crap.

WE have perfected the art of losing so we dont need to develop that anymore, what we need to do is develop the CULTURE of winning.

Were the players hurt by the flogging they got from the cheats?

Probably not because as soon as the going got tough against the bummers then they reverted to the tried and proven method of turning it in.

This club has learnt to accept mediocrity and needs to quickly change.

Some people say that this isnt the case, but to say we are not reviewing the performance and stating that that "game was not us" is living in the surreal.


People say we have improved on last season, well the jury is out, last year we played a month or so of good football , this year we have done the same, so have we improved?

the pro development lobby will say we are getting games into the kids.



We cant use the excuse that we played sh!t last year with the bowdens, richos, browns etc in the side who were never going to be the future.


We had a lot of young kids in who have dissapeared off the radar, this year we have a bunch of young kids playing so we excuse them, will they still be playing in twelve months time or will we be developing AGAIN?


what happened to the development of NASON, Webberley, post, gourdis connors, astbury etc etc etc, well we have new development targets.

Conca , Helbig , batchelor, grimes. the others well they just didnt make it or suffered second year blues.

Next year the excuse will be we need to get games into the new recruits otherwise HOW WILL THEY DEVELOP and players like Conca , Helbig , batchelor, grimes will be suufering from second year blues,

Second year blues now that is another great excuse , Why hasnt Dustin suffered from them?

The club is willing to accept mediocrity and to change that it might mean get a malthouse, but that MAY also mean that hardwick has to go.

As allan jeans said ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY THE PRICE.

NO!

Its this type of thinking that has distracted us from previous rebuilds, there is no quick answer without luck, i.e the Eagles this year

Now next year the pressure starts too build, but for christ sake talk of switching Hardwick for Malthouse at this stage, should almost be penalised by revoking your membership (jk), now Malthouse helping out would be another thing, this is our best chance at success in more than a quarter century, lets be patient.

 

[Mr Magic]

NO!

Its this type of thinking that has distracted us from previous rebuilds, there is no quick answer without luck, i.e the Eagles this year

Now next year the pressure starts too build, but for christ sake talk of switching Hardwick for Malthouse at this stage, should almost be penalised by revoking your membership (jk), now Malthouse helping out would be another thing, this is our best chance at success in more than a quarter century, lets be patient.

I agree this thread is BS.

We are not performing mainly because of the lack of quality on our list across the board.

The 17 year olds this year and 2012 superdraft is Richmonds saving grace.

RICHMOND MUST UTILISE THIS DEVELOPMENT opportunity to survive into the FUTURE!!!

This is the oonly way we can get the required quality on our list at an opportune time without tanking(which no one rightly wants to do).


IF the TIGERS does not go heavy for the 17 year olds given it has the players useful for GWS we are cutting our throats!!!


Please do it TIGERLAND otherwise I feel we may disappear!!!!

 

[NQTIGER]

I agree this thread is BS.

We are not performing mainly because of the lack of quality on our list across the board.

The 17 year olds this year and 2012 superdraft is Richmonds saving grace.

RICHMOND MUST UTILISE THIS DEVELOPMENT opportunity to survive into the FUTURE!!!

This is the oonly way we can get the required quality on our list at an opportune time without tanking(which no one rightly wants to do).


IF the TIGERS does not go heavy for the 17 year olds given it has the players useful for GWS we are cutting our throats!!!


Please do it TIGERLAND otherwise I feel we may disappear!!!!

Will that be like the 2004 super draft?

so we select 2, 3, 4 seventeen year olds........when they are ready to fire who will be left?

Newman? too old
Deledio? at another club
Cotchin? right age
Riewoldt? Right age
Foley? Too old
Vickery? Right age
martin ? right age

so we will still be in the same mess we are in now

good kids, but not enough mature players.

 

[Mr Magic]

Will that be like the 2004 super draft?

so we select 2, 3, 4 seventeen year olds........when they are ready to fire who will be left?

Newman? too old
Deledio? at another club
Cotchin? right age
Riewoldt? Right age
Foley? Too old
Vickery? Right age
martin ? right age

so we will still be in the same mess we are in now

good kids, but not enough mature players.

We are in a mess which is why we are on the bottom!!!!!

But we have our shit together!!


2004 was a bad year!!!

2012 and 17 years are are superdraft!!!! SEIZE the moment!!!!

Poor management of the past versus people who know what they are doing!!!

We do not have a lack of maturity, we have a lack of quality. Heppell is in the running for Essendon B&F so quality overrules age!!! Look at Hawthorns youthful rejuvenation!!!!

We need to get the young quality in over the next 3 years with Cotch leading the way!!!!

Let the players empower themselves with the replenishment of youthful quality injection to restore their belief and galvanise the focus to future directional premieship glory that is plausible and attainable to inspire the group forward!!!!!

BTW who said 2004 was a superdraft??? Wallace???

 

[Rustof]

Will that be like the 2004 super draft?

so we select 2, 3, 4 seventeen year olds........when they are ready to fire who will be left?

Newman? too old
Deledio? at another club
Cotchin? right age
Riewoldt? Right age
Foley? Too old
Vickery? Right age
martin ? right age

so we will still be in the same mess we are in now

good kids, but not enough mature players.

Grimes? Right age
Astbury? Right age
Rance? Right age
Griffiths? Right age
Conca? Right age
Batchelor? Right age
Helbig? Right age

 

[Mr Magic]

Grimes? Right age
Astbury? Right age
Rance? Right age
Griffiths? Right age
Conca? Right age
Batchelor? Right age
Helbig? Right age

Rustoff , 100 percent agree. I must say I do not have an issue with Grimes age and all the players in the list. They are the right age as you wisely have noted!!

 

[aislegi]

Next year the excuse will be we need to get games into the new recruits otherwise HOW WILL THEY DEVELOP and players like Conca , Helbig , batchelor, grimes will be suufering from second year blues ... Second year blues now that is another great excuse , Why hasnt Dustin suffered from them? ... The club is willing to accept mediocrity

Yes, well, that's right. If we don't have any expectations then what we will wind up with is a carousel of mediocrity. What the "pro-development" brigade don't seem to understand, in their eagerness to embrace and make excuses for anyone who is shy of 100 games, is that the players you bring in must be quality players and we must have a system in place where we make good players great. We don't have that. We can pump in youth at the bottom but we will still turn out crap if we can't change the culture of the club. For the first little while I was willing to go along with the "Let's give Hardwick a go" business, but what the last six or eight weeks have shown up is that Hardwick has not been able to get to the bottom of the two biggest problems at the club:

1. Poor recruiting and development
2. A culture of giving up

Sure, the apologist will point to there being a lot of rubbish when he took over, but he also left a lot of that rubbish on the list and has brought in plenty of rubbish of his own. In the last two years, we will be lucky if he has brought more than three or four decent players to the club.

Meanwhile, as much as he doesn't want to admit it, we are the same-old, same-old when comes to throwing it in when it gets a bit tough. If it wasn't bad enough to see the Tigers lose by 103 points to the Blues, the Blues have now been comfortably defeated on either side of that debacle. At least when we lost by 157 points to Geelong they won 19 of their next 20 games, including a record win in the Grand Final.

 

[Livonski]

Some of you guys are just full of bile. The poison and negativity is just unbelievable and reeks of a supporter culture of failure. Will you enjoy success when it comes or will there always be something wrong?
We've got some champions playing in our team. And we've got some fantastic potential. Focus your brain of what could be great for us rather than telling us where Hardwick (who has coached about about 30 games of footy btw) has failed.

I enjoy a lot of the discussion on this site. But I'm starting to get sick of the constant negativity being spewed out by so called supporters.

 

[Strawbs]

Get used to it Livonski. Short-sightedness is a pre-requisite for some on BF. Hardwick has turned over a huge number of players so it's going to take him a fair while to find the team he wants and have them play the way he wants. But no, apparently in a season and a half we should be tearing it up. As for Astbury and Grimes, some supprters don't seem to get the message - THEY'RE INJURED! Their development is not being stifled by playing in the twos - THEY ARE INJURED!

 

[captain blood 17]

Yes, well, that's right. If we don't have any expectations then what we will wind up with is a carousel of mediocrity. What the "pro-development" brigade don't seem to understand, in their eagerness to embrace and make excuses for anyone who is shy of 100 games, is that the players you bring in must be quality players and we must have a system in place where we make good players great. We don't have that. We can pump in youth at the bottom but we will still turn out crap if we can't change the culture of the club. For the first little while I was willing to go along with the "Let's give Hardwick a go" business, but what the last six or eight weeks have shown up is that Hardwick has not been able to get to the bottom of the two biggest problems at the club:

1. Poor recruiting and development
2. A culture of giving up

Sure, the apologist will point to there being a lot of rubbish when he took over, but he also left a lot of that rubbish on the list and has brought in plenty of rubbish of his own. In the last two years, we will be lucky if he has brought more than three or four decent players to the club.

Meanwhile, as much as he doesn't want to admit it, we are the same-old, same-old when comes to throwing it in when it gets a bit tough. If it wasn't bad enough to see the Tigers lose by 103 points to the Blues, the Blues have now been comfortably defeated on either side of that debacle. At least when we lost by 157 points to Geelong they won 19 of their next 20 games, including a record win in the Grand Final.

What a load of bullshit as is most of the reading in this thread. Yeah your right guys, the last 30 years is Dimma's fault, and even though he's turned the list on it's head, and is still learning the job himself and will make mistakes and learn from them, we should get rid of him and try another coach out. I mean this logic worked so well for us in the eighties and nineties. Well though out knobs.

 

[aislegi]

The poison and negativity is just unbelievable and reeks of a supporter culture of failure. Will you enjoy success when it comes or will there always be something wrong?
We've got some champions playing in our team.

Really? Who would they be? One definition of a "champion" would be someone who has won a Brownlow medal. Ian Stewart - 1971. Fail. Or perhaps a player who has gone close to winning one. Matthew Richardson - 2008. Fail (retired). In fact, with Ben Cousins also retired, do we even have any players who have gotten into double-figures in the Brownlow count? Not only that, your allegations of a "supporter culture of failure" are insulting and absurd. If the support of any of us was contingent on success, there would be none of us left after the last 30 years! But no doubt that fact has escaped you as well.

Get used to it Livonski. Short-sightedness is a pre-requisite for some on BF. Hardwick has turned over a huge number of players so it's going to take him a fair while to find the team he wants and have them play the way he wants. But no, apparently in a season and a half we should be tearing it up. As for Astbury and Grimes, some supprters don't seem to get the message - THEY'RE INJURED! Their development is not being stifled by playing in the twos - THEY ARE INJURED!

Are you trying to let us know THEY'RE INJURED? Gee, what would we do without your scoop! Fact of the matter is this: Very few of the players that have been brought to the club over the last two years have done very much. That is not to say that they are completely incapable of making a worthwhile contribution at some later stage, but at the same time there is precious little evidence that they will measure up. That is the point that you are missing in your eagerness to wheel out excuses.

[T]he last 30 years is Dimma's fault, and even though he's turned the list on it's head, and is still learning the job himself and will make mistakes and learn from them, we should get rid of him and try another coach out. I mean this logic worked so well for us in the eighties and nineties.

Talk about hypocritical! How can you give me a blast for saying that "Hardwick has not been able to get to the bottom of the two biggest problems at the club" while at the same time admitting that he "is still learning the job himself and will make mistakes"? Not only that, I'm not saying that he is incapable of fixing the problems; merely that he has not done so yet (which is pretty much exactly the same as what you have said).

 

[captain blood 17]

Really? Who would they be? One definition of a "champion" would be someone who has won a Brownlow medal. Ian Stewart - 1971. Fail. Or perhaps a player who has gone close to winning one. Matthew Richardson - 2008. Fail (retired). In fact, with Ben Cousins also retired, do we even have any players who have gotten into double-figures in the Brownlow count? Not only that, your allegations of a "supporter culture of failure" are insulting and absurd. If the support of any of us was contingent on success, there would be none of us left after the last 30 years! But no doubt that fact has escaped you as well.



Are you trying to let us know THEY'RE INJURED? Gee, what would we do without your scoop! Fact of the matter is this: Very few of the players that have been brought to the club over the last two years have done very much. That is not to say that they are completely incapable of making a worthwhile contribution at some later stage, but at the same time there is precious little evidence that they will measure up. That is the point that you are missing in your eagerness to wheel out excuses.



Talk about hypocritical! How can you give me a blast for saying that "Hardwick has not been able to get to the bottom of the two biggest problems at the club" while at the same time admitting that he "is still learning the job himself and will make mistakes"? Not only that, I'm not saying that he is incapable of fixing the problems; merely that he has not done so yet (which is pretty much exactly the same as what you have said).

It's not hypocritical. It's the rest of the BS that has been said in the whole thread as well. We have had countless threads on selection issues, and we have boasted about how we as supporters are different from other teams supporters, yet we drop a few and we start things up like calling for the coaches head, yet at the start of the year most reasonable supporters had us only winning 7-9 games.
And i guess what i'm saying to you (and i don't know how old you are, or what your work experience is), to change a culture can take years. I have worked in and ran multi million $ businesses with both good and bad culture, and am once again "assisting" in straightening out a business which culturally is a disgrace. A clean out doesn't solve everything, it's the re-aligning of attitudes and behaviours of who will stay, that's the killer and how long it takes who knows. Dimma is only 18 months into a gig that may not reap benefits until year 4.
We need to move on from the repeated topics of why isn't Tuck getting a game etc, etc. The public need to understand that somethings that go on behind closed doors, stay behind closed doors. It's called discretion and professionalism. We will learn about Tuck and Morton and Gus and ****ing Goo at years end, blind Freddy can see there's a bigger picture, and possibly some bigger issues with these blokes than we are entitiled to know.

 

[NQTIGER]

I should have named it Develoment Vs Winning Culture........

 

[PHX]

We didn't get gain any development today AND we didnt win

 

[Sterge]

my greatest fear is that with all this talk of trading this year we will fall into the same old same old richmond mistake and trade away a heaps of picks for recycled players and essentially stuff ourselves.

Jack obviously isn't right blokes like helbig shouldn't be playing firsts time to make the hard calls and our first round/early 2nd round picks should be almost untouchable