Dilution of Victorian rivalries

[JayJ20]

Are we seeing some traditional rivalries die out due to the nationalisation of the competition?

Carlton and Collingwood are the prime example. Nowadays, you wouldn't realise that there was any sort of rivalry unless you knew the history of the clubs, even though this was arguably the biggest rivalry in Australian sport. No real banter, no spite, no animosity, no twist and turns in match ups between the two. One can point out to the lack of success as being the reason for the rivalry to be very quiet, but Essendon-Carlton and Carlton-Richmond hasn't died down at all, no matter what the ladder looks like. In fact, it is probably immune to ladder position, similar to Adelaide-Port. So why has the Collingwood-Carlton one particularly died out? Is it a victim to the nationalisation of football? And will we see more Victorian teams lose traditional rivals as expansion goes on? Sure they haven't played each other in finals since the 80s, but for the biggest rivalry, that shouldn't be too much of a factor in comparison to their history.

I and many football fans probably agree with the notion that rivalries are important in keeping the interest in the game and maximising attendances, particularly in Victoria as the other states have cross-town rivalries to build on.

With the 6-6-6 policy in determining the fixture, we've seen traditional Victorian rivals play once for the first time since the 90s. It seems that rivalries in Victoria nowadays is shifting to ladder position as opposed to traditional rivals.

Would the re-introduction of rivalry round be a way to keep the traditional Victorian rivalries from being diluted?

 

[Kwality]

12 teams then, 18 teams now ... the FIXture, no room/appetite for a draw.

 

[Xenthor]

I like the idea of a heritage style round where teams play traditional rivals in their old strip

 

[Big_Birdy]

Not all have died though. Seems to me that Geelong v Hawthorn is bigger than its ever been. I don't ever remember that being a thing prior to 2008.

Have a feeling Hawks v Essendon is about to kick off again too.

 

[Franc de Borges]

Carlton/Essendon/Richmond have all played in finals against each other since the last Carlton/Collingwood final in 1988. It helps. That it's died out is an easy assumption to make because both teams are average, plus it doesn't have the advantage of a two team town scenario.

Still no team we enjoy beating more than Collingwood.

 

[JayJ20]

Carlton/Essendon/Richmond have all played in finals against each other since the last Carlton/Collingwood final in 1988. It helps. That it's died out is an easy assumption to make because both teams are average, plus it doesn't have the advantage of a two team town scenario.

Still no team we enjoy beating more than Collingwood.

Not all finals mean much to be honest. The 2011 EF was a write off and didn't really do anything to increase the rivalry. If next year, Collingwood meet Carlton in aN EF/SF and Collingwood wipe the floor with Carlton, it will literally do nothing to increase the rivalry. There will be some pregame hype, but then it will die down

 

[JayJ20]

Not all have died though. Seems to me that Geelong v Hawthorn is bigger than its ever been. I don't ever remember that being a thing prior to 2008.

Have a feeling Hawks v Essendon is about to kick off again too.

That is ladder based, which is what I sort of mean. St Kilda and Melbourne could have an intense rivalry with the run that Geelong-Hawthorn had.

Essendon-Hawks never really went away and the banter/hatred has been there for the last decade, but I guess not playing them twice much does take the attention away from that rivalry. Kind of dilutes it. But yes it'll kick off again for sure

 

[darthbards]

The reason the rivalries against Carlton have died off is because Carlton just aren't any good anymore so no one really cares about them in a traditional sense.
It's more a patronising thing nowadays and people more feel sorry for them and hope they do well because they've become more helpless rather than a significant rival.
If all these GWS rejects come good the rivalries against Carlton will probably return

 

[Franc de Borges]

Not all finals mean much to be honest. The 2011 EF was a write off and didn't really do anything to increase the rivalry. If next year, Collingwood meet Carlton in aN EF/SF and Collingwood wipe the floor with Carlton, it will literally do nothing to increase the rivalry. There will be some pregame hype, but then it will die down

That's true, but in the case of Essendon we've had:
-1993 GF
-1999 PF

and Richmond:
-2001 SF
-2013 EF

If you don't think those games have added to those rivalries then I don't know what to tell you. I'd say the ONLY exception would be where a heavy favourite (5th) beat a mediocre team (8th).

 

[Big_Birdy]

That is ladder based, which is what I sort of mean. St Kilda and Melbourne could have an intense rivalry with the run that Geelong-Hawthorn had.

Essendon-Hawks never really went away and the banter/hatred has been there for the last decade, but I guess not playing them twice much does take the attention away from that rivalry. Kind of dilutes it. But yes it'll kick off again for sure

Perhaps it is ladder based, but I have feeling it will remain in the next few seasons when those two are no longer top 4 or playing finals.

 

[JayJ20]

The reason the rivalries against Carlton have died off is because Carlton just aren't any good anymore so no one really cares about them in a traditional sense.
It's more a patronising thing nowadays and people more feel sorry for them and hope they do well because they've become more helpless rather than a significant rival.
If all these GWS rejects come good the rivalries against Carlton will probably return

Essendon vs Carlton and Richmond vs Carlton hasn't died out at all. But it could with the with the increase in numbers diluting the traditional rivalries.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Really comes down to teams not being any good any more.

I reckon the rivalries generally still draw more interest than what you'd otherwise get from 2 bottom half teams (im sure crowd numbers could be found to show whether this is right or wrong), but its not really gonna compete with teams who are top 4 over a number of years.

Get just 2 of those teams back to being repeat top 4 finishers and suddenly the rivalries will be back on like donkey kong.

 

[JayJ20]

That's true, but in the case of Essendon we've had:
-1993 GF
-1999 PF

and Richmond:
-2001 SF
-2013 EF

If you don't think those games have added to those rivalries then I don't know what to tell you. I'd say the ONLY exception would be where a heavy favourite (5th) beat a mediocre team (8th).

1999 was almost 20 years ago. To me, it is the home and away games that maintain rivalries. Geelong and Hawthorn's rivalry may have been spurred by the GF, but it was the H & A games that maintianed it.

If say, Essendon or Richmond start developing a rivalry with another team due to finals appearances, it would dilute the rivalry with Carlton in the current setting (as what happened with Carlton and Collingwood). But Adelaide and Port's rivalry would be maintained, no matter what happens.

So should there be something in place to maintain the traditional rivalries? That's what I'm trying to get at

 

[darthbards]

So should there be something in place to maintain the traditional rivalries? That's what I'm trying to get at

I guess with Carlton Richmond something has been put in place.
Without them now kicking off the season each year I doubt many people would really care.

 

[Franc de Borges]

1999 was almost 20 years ago. To me, it is the home and away games that maintain rivalries. Geelong and Hawthorn's rivalry may have been spurred by the GF, but it was the H & A games that maintianed it.

If say, Essendon or Richmond start developing a rivalry with another team due to finals appearances, it would dilute the rivalry with Carlton in the current setting (as what happened with Carlton and Collingwood). But Adelaide and Port's rivalry would be maintained, no matter what happens.

So should there be something in place to maintain the traditional rivalries? That's what I'm trying to get at

To answer the question then, no.

 

[Bokonon_]

Not all have died though. Seems to me that Geelong v Hawthorn is bigger than its ever been. I don't ever remember that being a thing prior to 2008.

Have a feeling Hawks v Essendon is about to kick off again too.

Well there was 1989, but I always felt that was more on the Cats side. To the Hawks it was just another flag in a long vein of them from my recollection. No doubt it's fired up recently but it's not that traditional.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Rivalries in any sport are typically geographic or success-based, ie having two teams regularly facing off for big games and premierships/titles.

Geographic rivalries are long gone given everybody plays in the CBD now.

The success ones don't happen due to equalisation, teams don't hang around at the top.

Geelong and Hawthorn are the only ones who've resisted equalisation the past decades and hence they have a rivalry.

 

[TiAn_]

Carlton & Essendon have been s**t for the better part of 15 years. Aside from ANZAC day, which is always a good day, can't think of a match that either are involved in that I would give a crap about, much less want to attend, as a neutral.

The nadir for the rivalry was Bomber supporters crowing after beating Carlton in a NAB Cup game this year. What a horrendous period for both clubs.

 

[threesixpio]

Hawk vs Essendon rivalry is still there but neither team has had a half decent team at the same time for a while.

Bomber posters are getting a bit excited about round one at the moment. Seem to think that they're on the way up and we are on the way down.

Hirdy's Hawthorn hatred was pretty interesting given that there were many years when he played where Essendon were a much better team. That suggests that the rivalry means something.

We have a very long history with North too and I reckon that animosity is still there.

Re Carlton vs Collingwood - if both become half decent and play against each other in finals it will be nuts.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I'd prefer Carlton rotted a lot longer before the rivalry resumed. Perhaps another 15 years.

Things like rivalries are always transitory. They change over time. Individuals hate who they hate but the demogographics change.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

I know people like to blame a lot of stuff on our mere existence - but a perceived drop off in the intensity of the Collingwood/Carlton rivalry is taking the dribble just a bit too far.

 

[Proper Gander]

Traditional rivalries just get replaced by new ones. This would happen with or without nationalisation. Melbourne v Collingwood was the biggest grudge rivalry going in the 50s, early 60s. But after the past decade I doubt pies supporters really give a s**t. Plus these things are somewhat generational. I haven't personally seen the great battles of Barassi v Weideman and nor have most current supporters.

Non issue. Further, you could bring in a million new expansion teams and still crows and power fans would turn every second thread into a shitfight.

 

[sataris]

I know people like to blame a lot of stuff on our mere existence - but a perceived drop off in the intensity of the Collingwood/Carlton rivalry is taking the dribble just a bit too far.

Shows you the level of stupid down south.

 

[TooBlue14]

The reason the rivalries against Carlton have died off is because Carlton just aren't any good anymore so no one really cares about them in a traditional sense.
It's more a patronising thing nowadays and people more feel sorry for them and hope they do well because they've become more helpless rather than a significant rival.
If all these GWS rejects come good the rivalries against Carlton will probably return

Another topic now tainted with darthbards blind hatred of Carlton. What a surprise. My new bigfooty hobby will be trolling trolls.

 

[darthbards]

Another topic now tainted with darthbards blind hatred of Carlton. What a surprise. My new bigfooty hobby will be trolling trolls.

Carlton have been a bottom club for years though, it's not trolling,it's factual whether you like it or not. If your having issues you support a lesser club because you grew up in the VFL era or something just get over it,it's not my fault or problem.