Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell *Homicide gets an AVO *Foster parents face charges of assaults, stalking, intimidation & lying

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Kurve

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Dec 27, 2016
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Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:
  • Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
  • Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on both
  • 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother
  • 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father
  • Stalking &/or Intimidation on both
Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)
Operation Arkstone
 

CodyRose

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Can't quite get my head around the involvement of another party either. Whoever's responsible for William's disappearance imo, did it alone and that's why the case hasn't been solved. They've told nobody what they did.
yes IMO a secret is something one tells nobody
 

Angry Red Bull

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A lot of the true crime stuff I follow has killers hiding the body close to their home, workplace or crime scene. Not sure why that is.

Yes I think you're right. I think there is a statistic that says a high percentage bodies are found within 23 klm of abduction. So something like that
 

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Liandra

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I was listening to a podcast in the car today with Jubelin, he was asked if the balcony theory had been investigated Jubelin replied it was looked at, not investigated and the only reason he investigated the FPS was because of pressure from other officers within Strikeforce Rosann, not because he thought they should be looked at.
"Looked at" is cop speak for investigated IMO.

Jubelin investigated the fosters when he took over as lead 5 months in, what you're referring to came later in 2016, before the reward was announced. He must've been very satisfied the fosters weren't involved after his initial investigation, other team members wanted them looked at again.
 

Liandra

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I think the investigation was very poorly handled in the first few days. The focus was on only two possibilities: William wandered off and got lost or came to grief, OR William was taken by (connections of) the bio parents.
Within a few hours, police were knocking on the doors of the bio parents, and also, a large search party had been established.
But look at was NOT done immediately:
  • Street was not cordoned off, no road blocks set up
  • FGM property was not secured or properly treated as a crime scene - people were allowed to trample all over the place
  • FM and FF were allowed to leave the house without full statements being taken.
  • No forensic analysis of FGM and FF vehicles
  • No forensic investigation of FF, FGM or FM for injury / wounds etc. - including FM hand injury
  • Phones and electronic devices were not immediately taken from fosters, nor were they monitored
  • FM, FGM and LT allowed to travel to Port Macquarie in FGM car unsupervised
  • No immediate surveillance of foster family
  • No forensic investigation of balcony or garden bed (e.g. luminol)
  • Phone calls to house from Savage and Owen were not followed up immediately
  • Locked shed and roof cavity of FGM property not searched
  • and of course, ... no details about the appearance of the fosters, their attire, or their vehicles was publicly released, so no witnesses could say whether they had been seen anywhere on the day.
In my opinion if some or all of the above had been done immediately, William would have been found by now.
There were missed opportunities that's for sure. It's hard to believe that statements weren't taken on the first day and the street wasn't cordoned off.

Immediate surveillance may not have been realistic, covert support needs to be applied for and can take time. Surveillance could've been underway in the days after, we wouldn't know.

It would be interesting to know the extent of forensic testing that was carried out on the property. Have the details ever been made public? I don't remember reading about whether luminol was used or whether the garden bed was investigated.
 

zedx

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how common would a planned handover be?
Not that I know any statistics, but I would imagine a planned handover is lot less common that a random abduction. Also as the child was not at his usual place of abode, was there a day earlier than planned and ran around the corner of the house out of sight, apparently on his own accord, I dont see that this could have been a planned abduction either.
 

Lady O

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"Looked at" is cop speak for investigated IMO.

Jubelin investigated the fosters when he took over as lead 5 months in, what you're referring to came later in 2016, before the reward was announced. He must've been very satisfied the fosters weren't involved after his initial investigation, other team members wanted them looked at again.

"Looked at" could have either been a thorough investigation or it could have just been a boy's look.
 

fazacs1

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A few points...

While it's been repeated in the media that FGM car had not been examined previously, it had been examined in the days after William disappeared. Cars were returned when nothing incriminating was found. It's unknown how thorough the examination was, however Forensic Services Group were involved from the start of the investigation.


Examining those cars at the time would've been procedure, especially once the homicide squad became involved. 7 years is a long time in forensics, police might've been having another crack at the car using new techniques.

Jubelin has said that the balcony theory was investigated, and IMO earlier investigators would've looked at this theory also. As much as the early investigation has been criticised, I think once the SF was established (day 4?) homicide investigators would've looked at all the obvious possibilities.
Hi there, could you post the Jubelin article on where he investigated the balcony theory, I would be very interested in reading it. Cheers
 

Angry Red Bull

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What was WT. playing immediately prior going missing. I listened again to Where's William Tyrell Chanel 10 podcast episode 3, "one last roar". First 5 minutes.

I had thought I had heard that before going missing he was playing hide and seek game. Podcast FM tells us they were drawing, then dice, then running around daddy tiger, then mommy monster

"The mommy monster game was a sort of variation on hide and seek, tip and go game." Doesn't elaborate on to what extent there was a 'hide' element but that must be pretty important. If he ran around corner and was endeavouring to hide behind a tree or other object the game once repeated would involve more discreet hiding places one would suggest. Also a chase and tip to it

HYPOTHESiS

Play mommy monster with FM chasing after WT to tip him. On one occassion he chooses to run straight along the balcony chased closely by Mommy Monster giggling the whole time and steps off the couch at the end and over the balcony. How feasible would a 4 yo do such a thing? Very. Excited by game and the chase not familiar again with house risks but trying to get away. Yes very feasible. Breaks neck below. No blood. History of abuse injuries which an autopsy would reveal couldn't be allowed to surface.

I recently listened to a list of top 100 songs. Got to the song "tears in heaven". Such an incredible sad song if you know the history of its origin. Shed a tear or two listening to it. So I read the story again. Eric Claptons Son Connor aged 4 was on 53rd floor apartment with mum and baby sitter. Mum had let maintenance man in to replace entire sheet window pane in living room. Mum answered the phone and was distracted. Connor ran out of bedroom chased by sitter unaware of what the maintenance man had done and all screamed but he didn't stop. Was used to running up to pane and pressing his nose against it to look out. Fell to his death 53 floors below from open space where pane usually was. Didn't have the cognitive awareness to sense danger and instead was focused on running excitedly

Addendum:
In retelling of that both FM and FF are story telling imo. Repeatedly saying it was normal, ordinary nothing unusual. "How could we expect him ducking around the corner could end in this" Imo clear deceitful account. Then Lia Harris says it was about 10.30am. that must have come from FM but the timeline is too late. Why would she tell LH a time that was too late? 26 mins later a 000 call? No. Way too late. But if there is deceit and I think there is then a body would have to have been hidden. Truncating the time to leave no time in the account for such hiding is important because it too is a lie. It happened much earlier if this was the accident
 
Last edited:

31550

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how common would a planned handover be?
If we are talking 'illegal' planned handover, extremely rare IMO.

If the FM or FF decided that William was not the 'right fit' as a foster child there were plenty of better (legal) options available to them than to 'hand off' William to an unauthorised person:
  • Seek respite care for William via the care agency and/or FACS
  • Seek counselling from the agency and FACS or additional support / training on how to deal with challenging behaviours
  • Organise for William to be transferred to a different foster care situation (temporarily or permanently)
I am aware of the argument that "the fosters didn't want to lose William's sister", but this also doesn't make sense:
  • Naïve or overly-confident to think this situation could be hidden from authorities for ever.
  • They were allegedly considering formal adoption of William and his sister (why go through all of this?)
  • If they could not cope with William, why assume it's going to be 'plain sailing' with just his sister?
  • They had William in their care first, before the sister, so their bond to William would likely be the same if not stronger
  • If they genuinely cared for William's sister, they would not want to separate her from her brother, with whom she had a bond
  • It would be unrealistic to expect William's sister to remain in their care with William gone (I know this happened, but I find it quite surprising)
  • Probably plenty of other opportunities to find another boy/girl sibling pair requiring foster care in NSW - could have just swapped them for a less 'challenging' placement (e.g. one or two very young infants)
 

31550

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What time did the Crabbs report they heard a vehicle stop?
I have this written down in 'my' timeline, but unfortunately don't have a source:

The Crabbs arrived home between 9:30 and 9:35. (They did not see any cars on the street). Then they had tea on their back deck.
While having tea, they both "heard a car turn around", thinking it was the postie, according to the inquest. The car came up fast, sounded like it turned around then drove off. No doors were heard closing, consistent with postie assumption.

Mr Crabb thought it was about 10 minutes after getting home (so, around 9:40 to 9:45)

Mrs Crabb thought it was about 40 minutes after getting home ( so, around 10:00 to 10:05)

We know that the car heard could not have been the postie, because the postie delivered early that morning (before Crabbs got home).

Could this have been the car FM said she saw turn around with LT while they were riding bikes?
Could this have been FM taking FGM car out to "look for William"?
Could this have been an abductor?
Or, could this have been just some random person driving up Benaroon, not realising it was a dead-end, and then driving off?
 

fazacs1

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What was WT. playing immediately prior going missing. I listened again to Where's William Tyrell Chanel 10 podcast episode 3, "one last roar". First 5 minutes.

I had thought I had heard that before going missing he was playing hide and seek game. Podcast FM tells us they were drawing, then dice, then running around daddy tiger, then mommy monster

"The mommy monster game was a sort of variation on hide and seek, tip and go game." Doesn't elaborate on to what extent there was a 'hide' element but that must be pretty important. If he ran around corner and was endeavouring to hide behind a tree or other object the game once repeated would involve more discreet hiding places one would suggest. Also a chase and tip to it

HYPOTHESiS

Play mommy monster with FM chasing after WT to tip him. On one occassion he chooses to run straight along the balcony chased closely by Mommy Monster giggling the whole time and steps off the couch at the end and over the balcony. How feasible would a 4 yo do such a thing? Very. Excited by game and the chase not familiar again with house risks but trying to get away. Yes very feasible. Breaks neck below. No blood. History of abuse injuries which an autopsy would reveal couldn't be allowed to surface.

I recently listened to a list of top 100 songs. Got to the song "tears in heaven". Such an incredible sad song if you know the history of its origin. Shed a tear or two listening to it. So I read the story again. Eric Claptons Son Connor aged 4 was on 53rd floor apartment with mum and baby sitter. Mum had let maintenance man in to replace entire sheet window pane in living room. Mum answered the phone and was distracted. Connor ran out of bedroom chased by sitter unaware of what the maintenance man had done and all screamed but he didn't stop. Was used to running up to pane and pressing his nose against it to look out. Fell to his death 53 floors below from open space where pane usually was. Didn't have the cognitive awareness to sense danger and instead was focused on running excitedly

Addendum:
In retelling of that both FM and FF are storey telling. Repeatedly saying it was normal, ordinary nothing unusual. "How could we expect him ducking around the corner could end in this" Imo clear deceitful account. Then Lia Harris says it was about 10.30am. that must have come from FM but the timeline is too late. Why would she tell LH a time that was too late? 26 mins later a 000 call? No. Way too late. But if there is deceit and I think there is then a body would have to have been hidden. Truncating the time to leave no time in the account for such hiding is important because it too is a lie. It happened much earlier if this was the accident
Clutching at straws here maybe, but One thing I have noticed, is whenever FM is asked the last time she saw WT alive, she always answers with the last time she hears WT roaring around the corner, she never gives an actual timeframe even approximately for when she saw him only when she hears him alive.
 

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Angry Red Bull

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Clutching at straws here maybe, but One thing I have noticed, is whenever FM is asked the last time she saw WT alive, she always answers with the last time she hears WT roaring around the corner, she never gives an actual timeframe even approximately for when she saw him only when she hears him alive.

Being vague is hiding truth. Even the game they played.....the specifics weren't given when could easily. Was there hiding? Did you chase him? How many times? What's the furthest point from house he went? None offered and the reason is she wants to be intentionally vague about what happened so she can change it is needed
 

Lady O

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Being vague is hiding truth. Even the game they played.....the specifics weren't given when could easily. Was there hiding? Did you chase him? How many times? What's the furthest point from house he went? None offered and the reason is she wants to be intentionally vague about what happened so she can change it is needed
She was drinking tea apparently.
 

fazacs1

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I have this written down in 'my' timeline, but unfortunately don't have a source:

The Crabbs arrived home between 9:30 and 9:35. (They did not see any cars on the street). Then they had tea on their back deck.
While having tea, they both "heard a car turn around", thinking it was the postie, according to the inquest. The car came up fast, sounded like it turned around then drove off. No doors were heard closing, consistent with postie assumption.

Mr Crabb thought it was about 10 minutes after getting home (so, around 9:40 to 9:45)

Mrs Crabb thought it was about 40 minutes after getting home ( so, around 10:00 to 10:05)

We know that the car heard could not have been the postie, because the postie delivered early that morning (before Crabbs got home).

Could this have been the car FM said she saw turn around with LT while they were riding bikes?
Could this have been FM taking FGM car out to "look for William"?
Could this have been an abductor?
Or, could this have been just some random person driving up Benaroon, not realising it was a dead-end, and then driving off?
Drove up fast, to me would have to be someone who knew where they were going. IMO if it was someone looking to break into houses, they would be going much slower because the houses are set back in the street and to get a look in driveways for cars and activities around each home. No car doors, would suggest to me either a new car in which case the Crabbs may not of heard the door or doors or boot closing. Unless the abductor noticed WT on the way up the street at the bottom of FGM yard (front of the house) quickly turned around and drove back down, opened the car doors and bundled him in the car, high pitched muffled scream,( not sure where FM heard this, in FGM yard or down near the bus stop? ) could it have been WT screaming then a hand over his mouth?
 

fazacs1

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She was drinking tea apparently.
Yes relaxing (which I know we all like to do at times) but you have a 3 year old child, that is prone to injuring themselves,
  • Falls off FF while playing horsey
  • Falls of FM knee and hits coffee table
  • Falls out of bed and hits head on table
  • Falls off little stool and can’t get up
  • Crashes bike into rocks, that morning, apparently deliberately
And yet, he is allowed to run around an unfamiliar, unsafe setting. A yard which is unfenced, has access to bushland, roads and high decks, without keeping a close eye on him. I must of been a very overprotective mother and would be blaming myself for letting my child out of my sight for any amount of time in that setting.
 

Lady O

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Yes relaxing (which I know we all like to do at times) but you have a 3 year old child, that is prone to injuring themselves,
  • Falls off FF while playing horsey
  • Falls of FM knee and hits coffee table
  • Falls out of bed and hits head on table
  • Falls off little stool and can’t get up
  • Crashes bike into rocks, that morning, apparently deliberately
And yet, he is allowed to run around an unfamiliar, unsafe setting. A yard which is unfenced, has access to bushland, roads and high decks, without keeping a close eye on him. I must of been a very overprotective mother and would be blaming myself for letting my child out of my sight for any amount of time in that setting.
I agree with all that, but I was replying to ARB's suggestion that she was chasing him. She was sitting on the verandah drinking tea. She wasn't chasing him.
 

fazacs1

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I agree with all that, but I was replying to ARB's suggestion that she was chasing him. She was sitting on the verandah drinking tea. She wasn't chasing him.
Yes, I agree with what you said, I just went off to why you wouldn’t lol
 

zedx

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Kid was accident prone.
No uncommon in little children. I remember taking my daughter to kindy always covered in bruises from all her 'escapades' and worrying some one may think I caused them.
 

31550

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Kid was accident prone.
If that is actually a 'thing'. Kids are kids. Accidents are accidents.
If William was inclined to often sustain injuries from his normal play activities, there would be even more reason to supervise him closely and not let him out of your sight, even for a moment, but especially in an unfamiliar and potentially dangerous setting.
 

NRL Fan

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It would be interesting to review all of the evidence that the police have that points to the balcony fall, including why it took 8 years to emerge. Whatever it is, it must be good enough for the police to spend a small fortune searching for remains within a defined area. I suppose it is possible that the FGM gave up the secret before her death and a 3rd party has secretly come forward, or perhaps LT has had some memories that were shared with police.
 

Angry Red Bull

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It would be interesting to review all of the evidence that the police have that points to the balcony fall, including why it took 8 years to emerge. Whatever it is, it must be good enough for the police to spend a small fortune searching for remains within a defined area. I suppose it is possible that the FGM gave up the secret before her death and a 3rd party has secretly come forward, or perhaps LT has had some memories that were shared with police.

All possible.

My personal read on it all is that head of Homicide told them that upon Jubelin leaving they review the entire case, attend to coroner's requests and shelve as cold case. I think the balcony and possible burial were educated guesses based on that review and last throw of dice.
 

31550

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All possible.

My personal read on it all is that head of Homicide told them that upon Jubelin leaving they review the entire case, attend to coroner's requests and shelve as cold case. I think the balcony and possible burial were educated guesses based on that review and last throw of dice.
If you read Jubelin's book, he talks about the argument he got into with another detective shortly before he resigned. He doesn't specifically say, but I inferred that other police thought Jubelin was too fixated on Savage, and too dismissive of the fosters being involved in William's disappearance. It's possible other members of SFR wanted to pursue the 'balcony' theory but Jubelin did not support them. In his interviews he was always openly quite convinced and close-minded about the fosters' innocence. This is unusual for a hardened cop.

I don't believe there is any specific physical evidence which supports the 'fall from balcony' theory - if there is it has not been made public. Nor is there any physical evidence which supports any of the other theories though.
 

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