Current Disappearance of little William Tyrrell *Homicide gets an AVO on the foster parents

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Kurve

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Except that thousands of people who know/knew them in real life, likely know that they are William and LT's Foster parents.
And thousands of people in NSW and around Australia who don't personally know them, that thanks to the internet, and grapevine, know their real names.
Including potential future employers and potential new friends, acquaintances and potential customers or business partners/colleagues.

One of the reasons why I think a defence on mental health grounds could backfire spectacularly outside the courts.

The FM also is on the record for saying the FD 'probably fell off her horse' as a reason for the bruising and that seems not to have a thing to do with their/her mental health.
 
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Kurve

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I agree that it's likely a car would be seen. I'm not so sure it would be noticed. I live in a quiet street, I see cars come and go. I would have a hard time describing some of the cars I saw yesterday (i.e. not my neighbours who I see all the time).

I lived in a very similar setting to Benaroon Drive for a few years, we'd have noticed a random car by sight or even by hearing it on a still day, straight away and made a mental note that wouldn't have slipped mind in the time it took from William's disappearance to being alerted he was missing.

The only thing that's putting me off someone walking in from the cemetery, is that might seem they knew William was going to be there which I think was ruled out.
 

Kurve

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Except if the common assault, was so minor that it is deemed useless as propensity evidence in anything they might be charged for involving William (apart from a similar common assault of a child).

I don't believe either of them will face charges of direct involvement with William's disappearance on what I can see so far but for arguments sake, do you think if Carmel Barbagallo was prosecuting she wouldn't try to raise it as propensity evidence, along with the biological mother's evidence that William had a black eye on one visit?
 

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Pies1990

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I don't believe either of them will face charges of direct involvement with William's disappearance on what I can see so far but for arguments sake, do you think if Carmel Barbagallo was prosecuting she wouldn't try to raise it as propensity evidence, along with the biological mother's evidence that William had a black eye on one visit?

Hence why I think the assault charge should be related to the WT investigation IMO. It may not be admissible in a court of law, but in reality, if the FP have assaulted a sister, had history of the child having black eyes, and another child is missing, it doesn’t look good.
This is all of course subject to them being found guilty and other evidence coming out. If not guilty, it’s just a tragic circumstance


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Awakening

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I'd be willing to bet a fair sum that their days of wanting to foster a child are well and truly over.

Well it would certainly put you off wouldn't it?

But my understanding is that they were looking at adoption of WT and LT. That they desired permanent long term placements as opposed to people that only foster short term placements.

I can only assume they wanted their own family and through choice or circumstances chose the foster system to make that happen.

So maybe that desire is still there.

Or - I often wondered if they had other foster kids in their care. I seem to recall they had put their hands up for long term short term and emergency placements.

It would also explain in part about the suppression orders. There may be other kids that they previously fostered, fostered at the time or are still fostering.
 

BFew

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I don't believe either of them will face charges of direct involvement with William's disappearance on what I can see so far but for arguments sake, do you think if Carmel Barbagallo was prosecuting she wouldn't try to raise it as propensity evidence, along with the biological mother's evidence that William had a black eye on one visit?

If the Claremont Killer’s Prosecutor (Barbagallo) was prosecuting either of William’s Foster Carers for crimes related to covering up William having had an accident, and then secretly and wilfully disposing of his body, in an attempt to cover up what happened, and then lying to NSW Police, FACS and the Coroner, rather than immediately seeking medical help for William or calling Emergency Services …..

IMO, Barbagallo would (in any hypothetical pre-trial hearings that the judge might hold to rule any proposed propensity evidence admissible or inadmissible in the hypothectical upcoming trial by jury or judge only)
….. hold it right there
As I’m neither legally qualified or up to speed on the legal use of propensity evidence in WA or NSW.
With any propensity learnings I might have learned from the Claremont Killer case, now a bit COVID foggy in my mind.
 

BFew

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'The $1m reward for information that leads to the recovery of William, and the circumstances surrounding his disappearance, remains in place.

Police continue to urge anyone with information to come forward.'
 

Kurve

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If the Claremont Killer’s Prosecutor (Barbagallo) was prosecuting either of William’s Foster Carers for crimes related to covering up William having had an accident, and then secretly and wilfully disposing of his body, in an attempt to cover up what happened, and then lying to NSW Police, FACS and the Coroner, rather than immediately seeking medical help for William or calling Emergency Services …..

Yes alright, I probably could have specified a murder/manslaughter case where a history of violence might be relevant because it's probably not in an accident scenario.
 

kat1234

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Hence why I think the assault charge should be related to the WT investigation IMO. It may not be admissible in a court of law, but in reality, if the FP have assaulted a sister, had history of the child having black eyes, and another child is missing, it doesn’t look good.
This is all of course subject to them being found guilty and other evidence coming out. If not guilty, it’s just a tragic circumstance


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The common assault charge might or might not be relevant to WT case.

But it speaks to the character of the person(s) of interest.

A guilty verdict would tarnish their record. It’s like the opposite of a character reference. Probably why the fosters are working so hard to clear their names.

The perfect family and perfect parents mirage that was curated has IMO been shattered already with the charges being laid.
 
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kat1234

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Yes alright, I probably could have specified a murder/manslaughter case where a history of violence might be relevant because it's probably not in an accident scenario.

The more that time goes on I start to doubt the accident theory and it makes me think something more sinister has occurred.

For example: Parent witnesses an accident then just disposes of a body of their child so coldly. It doesn’t fit.

A history of violence on the part of the fosters (if convicted) would make me suspicious that maybe his disappearance wasn’t an accident and violence of some type may have occurred to WT.
 

Kurve

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The more that time goes on I start to doubt the accident theory and it makes me think something more sinister has occurred.

At this stage, they haven't been convicted of anything and are entitled to the presumption of innocence.

The courts now would view the WT disappearance and the alleged assault on the daughter as completely independent, unconnected events separated by many years.
 

kat1234

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If the Claremont Killer’s Prosecutor (Barbagallo) was prosecuting either of William’s Foster Carers for crimes related to covering up William having had an accident, and then secretly and wilfully disposing of his body, in an attempt to cover up what happened, and then lying to NSW Police, FACS and the Coroner, rather than immediately seeking medical help for William or calling Emergency Services …..

IMO, Barbagallo would (in any hypothetical pre-trial hearings that the judge might hold to rule any proposed propensity evidence admissible or inadmissible in the hypothectical upcoming trial by jury or judge only)
….. hold it right there
As I’m neither legally qualified or up to speed on the legal use of propensity evidence in WA or NSW.
With any propensity learnings I might have learned from the Claremont Killer case, now a bit COVID foggy in my mind.


Definition of propensity evidence:

Although there is no universally agreed upon definition of what constitutes similar fact evidence, there is overwhelming support for the view that such evidence is but a species of a broader category of evidence that is commonly referred to as ‘character’, ‘propensity’, or ‘disposition’ evidence. Character (or ‘propensity’ or ‘disposition’) evidence denotes evidence which shows that a person (or thing) has a continuing propensity to behave in a particular manner or act with a particular state of mind. Similar fact evidence, on the other hand, is evidence of specific conduct, usually criminal or otherwise discreditable in nature, which is of the same general character or shares some common feature with the conduct that is the subject of the proceeding, and which is tendered as circumstantial evidence of one or more of the constituent elements of that conduct.
 

kat1234

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Definition of propensity evidence:

Although there is no universally agreed upon definition of what constitutes similar fact evidence, there is overwhelming support for the view that such evidence is but a species of a broader category of evidence that is commonly referred to as ‘character’, ‘propensity’, or ‘disposition’ evidence. Character (or ‘propensity’ or ‘disposition’) evidence denotes evidence which shows that a person (or thing) has a continuing propensity to behave in a particular manner or act with a particular state of mind. Similar fact evidence, on the other hand, is evidence of specific conduct, usually criminal or otherwise discreditable in nature, which is of the same general character or shares some common feature with the conduct that is the subject of the proceeding, and which is tendered as circumstantial evidence of one or more of the constituent elements of that conduct.

“Character (or ‘propensity’ or ‘disposition’) evidence denotes evidence which shows that a person (or thing) has a continuing propensity to behave in a particular manner or act with a particular state of mind.”

And I think this is why FFFC and FMFC don’t want to be found guilty of assault of LT.

Having a propensity to behave in a particular manner.

Being convicted of behaving violently is not a good option for them. **they’ve only been charged **

It will be interesting to see the outcome of the common assault case.
 

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kat1234

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Sounds flimsy, unquantifiable and therefore unfair to me.
“Similar fact evidence, on the other hand, is evidence of specific conduct, usually criminal or otherwise discreditable in nature, which is of the same general character or shares some common feature with the conduct that is the subject of the proceeding, and which is tendered as circumstantial evidence of one or more of the constituent elements of that conduct.”

This seems a bit more quantifiable. Imo.

Maybe 🤔 task force Rosann might seek to use similar fact evidence to help build a circumstantial case in the WT matter if FFFC and FMFC are convicted of assaulting the minor in their care reported recently.

IMO.

Disclaimer: Everyone is innocent 😇 until
proven guilty.
 

CodyRose

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I lived in a very similar setting to Benaroon Drive for a few years, we'd have noticed a random car by sight or even by hearing it on a still day, straight away and made a mental note that wouldn't have slipped mind in the time it took from William's disappearance to being alerted he was missing.

The only thing that's putting me off someone walking in from the cemetery, is that might seem they knew William was going to be there which I think was ruled out.
Yew one can’t hide in country because people notice everything. Whereas city folks don’t notice extra cars as they are used to a busy environment where people are too concerned with their own day to have a broader awareness of their surroundings.
 

CodyRose

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One of the reasons why I think a defence on mental health grounds could backfire spectacularly outside the courts.

The FM also is on the record for saying the FD 'probably fell off her horse' as a reason for the bruising and that seems not to have a thing to do with their/her mental health.
Wouldn’t the riding school have told the parents if the child fell off her horse?
 

Pies1990

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I’m sure there would’ve been an incident report if a child had fallen off a horse at a riding school.

And being an accident, wouldn’t result in a common assault charge and the child being removed from their care. The mental health couldn’t be attributed to that either.
Has to be a lot more to it


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Kwality

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“Character (or ‘propensity’ or ‘disposition’) evidence denotes evidence which shows that a person (or thing) has a continuing propensity to behave in a particular manner or act with a particular state of mind.”

And I think this is why FFFC and FMFC don’t want to be found guilty of assault of LT.

Having a propensity to behave in a particular manner.

Being convicted of behaving violently is not a good option for them. **they’ve only been charged **

It will be interesting to see the outcome of the common assault case.

For many being charged is the same as being guilty. The presumption of innocence is an inconvenient concept best ignored.
 

CodyRose

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hmmm...indeed.

Nice pickup...

1 must wonder if this is of any significance?

Does anyone else think the volume of items found in this search would be unusually large to be random lodgements from one area that they are searching in...For example would you find 30+ items (of cloth / other fabric / replica gun) if you went to your local creek and dug around the banks? This seems such a remote place with seemingly not a lot of through traffic for those items to be there from passing traffic etc...especially the colours of those items of interest - red strands of thread, blue patches of fabric and now this red large cloth...
There is lots of water which flows through when the area has heavy rain.
 

Lady O

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I understand rubbish etc flows through creeks unfortunately, but these items of interest seem dense...blue cloths / red fabric strands / red cloths when they are looking for exactly those colours.

What I am saying, if you look at the topography of those creeks in that area, they are only sourced in that general area in state forest and run down only through that immediate area. The creeks arent running through high traffic flow areas nor are they running through the middle of town. They also seemingly only stretch for around 1-2km down into the river. Its not like the creek is many kilometres long to accumulate those items.

It was just a thought that hopefully some of these items have been relevant to the investigation and there can be closure on this from these efforts.

I don't have a subscription to the DT, but I thought I heard there was a rubbish dump where they were digging. If you google this, and have a sub, you might be able to read the whole article " A massive pit of buried rubbish and debris has become the focus of the expert grave diggers and senior police searching for William Tyrrell. "
 

kat1234

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One of the reasons why I think a defence on mental health grounds could backfire spectacularly outside the courts.

The FM also is on the record for saying the FD 'probably fell off her horse' as a reason for the bruising and that seems not to have a thing to do with their/her mental health.
Do you have a link to the article about the horse?
 

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