Discussion on SEN: Pokie revenue

raman

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#76
I don't think this argument is really relevant to the thread. There's a difference between wanting the government to stamp out pokie machines and wanting your football club to find a less harmful revenue stream. I don't think cigarettes should be criminalised, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna start selling them myself.
I think if the discussion is about whether we like our footy club using this revenue source or not, then a discussion of the broader issue is both natural and appropriate. Especially in the off-season. ;)
 

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Moderator #78
At the end of the day it is up to the government as best it can to try and address health equity issues among the population. There is a clear and consistent relationship between socio-economic status and health outcomes, including mental health. The greater the disadvantage the worse the health outcomes. Problem gambling affects the more disadvantaged just as many other behaviours that impact health do. Addictive behaviour is a comorbidity of other mental health issues.

One study cited in Crikey found that:

across the four Australian jurisdictions we examined (NSW, Victoria, Queensland and the ACT) about $9.7 billion was lost on pokies in 2010-11, and about $180 million was claimed by pokie operators as community benefit. That’s 1.9% of the total of losses.
In NSW, the ratio of losses to benefits was worst, at 1.3%. NSW pokie users spent just under $5 billion in 2010-11, and the clubs provided a claimed $63.5 million in benefits.

Our study also reinforced other research, which has shown pokies to be concentrated in areas of disadvantage. For example, in the federal electorate of Blaxland in south-west Sydney, pokie users lost over $177.5 million and claimed benefits amounted to just over $1.5 million — about 1.4%. More significant, however, was the relationship between this and the income of people living in the electorate. At $396 per week, median individual income in Blaxland was the lowest of the 41 federal electorates we examined. We were able to estimate the average expenditure per pokie user in the area because we know on average what proportion of the population actually use pokies, and average losses amounted to over $7000 per annum per user — more than a third of median income.
...
pokie clubs are not generating any more economic activity than would otherwise occur. They’re simply diverting some of that (in some cases, a hefty proportion) into their poker machines. That means that other purposes are not being met — things such as rent, mortgage repayments, food, bills, clothes, schoolbooks and so on. Mundane as these purposes are, they provide real benefits to individuals and, particularly in the case of education, etc, also provide massive community-wide benefits.

...
The Productivity Commission estimated very reasonably that 40% of the money that is lost on the pokies comes from people with a serious gambling problem, and another 20% from those with a moderate or developing problem.
cited in Crikey

In the end the disadvantaged are more likely to use the public health system that creaks and groans under the weight of use. This affects all of us because it is funded by the government. The SA health budget is over $3 billion and according to state health ministers at its current rate of growth will consume the entire state budget in 20 years.

I understand discussing broader health factors is beyond the boundaries of this discussion, although posts were touching on the issues in general of government control over aspects of people's lives. The government is committed to reducing smoking, especially among young people. Similarly it is committed to reducing risky drinking, especially among young people. It is committed to reducing overweight and obesity. All of these factors impact enormously on long term health and wellbeing and on public spending.

While problem-gambling is a smaller impact issue than some of these health factors above, it is a contributor to better health and wellbeing outcomes.

Of course there are the political imperatives. One comment in the cited article was that the biggest addicts of pokie machines are governments. And of course there is the lobbying power of the gambling and hospitality industries that both fund government campaigns and can threaten high-profile advertising campaigns against the government.

Getting back to a football perspective, I would prefer like Robert Holmes a Court that we could be financially competitive and sustaining without poker machine income. The reality is we cannot.
 
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#79
.......

Of course there are the political imperatives. One comment in the cited article was that the biggest addicts of pokie machines are governments. And of course there is the lobbying power of the gambling and hospitality industries that both fund government campaigns and can threaten high-profile advertising campaigns against the government.

Getting back to a football perspective, I would prefer like Robert Holmes a Court that we could be financially competitive and sustaining without poker machine income. The reality is we cannot.

The biggest addicts are state and territory governments. I love how all these studies go on about how much money is lost but never tell you how much ends up in government coffers and what they do with the taxes and what percentage of taxes collected do they plough into prevention and rehab programs.

If Robert Holmes a Court was still around he would probably be scamming a takeover of some pokie conglomerate. :) His son Peter has done a truly great think to say South Sydney will not accept pokie machines and monies.
 

Dalphonso

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#80
Investing in the sharemarket is similar to pokies. You take a gamble .Sometimes you win and others you do your arse.But no one is condemning stockbrokers.
 

Dalphonso

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#81
The biggest addicts are state and territory governments. I love how all these studies go on about how much money is lost but never tell you how much ends up in government coffers and what they do with the taxes and what percentage of taxes collected do they plough into prevention and rehab programs.

If Robert Holmes a Court was still around he would probably be scamming a takeover of some pokie conglomerate. :) His son Peter has done a truly great think to say South Sydney will not accept pokie machines and monies.
Peter Holmes a Court got the arse from South Sydney a couple of years ago. You must have watched that documentary on them last week?
 
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#82
Peter Holmes a Court got the arse from South Sydney a couple of years ago. You must have watched that documentary on them last week?

No, I know that he handed over the CEO job to Shane Richardson 5 years ago, but he made the pokies decision in 2007 a year before he gave up being CEO, but he is still a joint owner. If you re-read my post I referred to the no pokie decision not any current activity.
 
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#83
Investing in the sharemarket is similar to pokies. You take a gamble .Sometimes you win and others you do your arse.But no one is condemning stockbrokers.

My mate who is a professor of international marketing and was more than is a high roller gambler has as his email signature a quote from Jung and then

"The gambling known as business looks with austere disfavor upon the business known as gambling."
-Ambrose Bierce
 
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Moderator #84
The biggest addicts are state and territory governments. I love how all these studies go on about how much money is lost but never tell you how much ends up in government coffers and what they do with the taxes and what percentage of taxes collected do they plough into prevention and rehab programs.
A 1996 study on NSW and Gambling revenue found that for the FY 1993-94 NSW accounted for $1.95 billion lost and $347.7 million in revenue.

How much goes into rehab is another question. It's not just a matter of money lost and what goes to government, it's the social cost to the vulnerable and disadvantaged. One doesn't cancel out the other.

If Robert Holmes a Court was still around he would probably be scamming a takeover of some pokie conglomerate. :) His son Peter has done a truly great think to say South Sydney will not accept pokie machines and monies.
Oops meant Peter. Senior moment. ;) But Peter's promise on pokies was never met. The South Sydney league club still has 60 pokies and went into administration in March 2013. As noted earlier Russell Crowe even defended the Rabbitohs Star City Casino sponsorship in 2011.
 

Peck

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#85
Those same people who you want the government to save from themselves can easily bet a shitload more on horses or through sportsbet etc than they can in a minute through the pokies in seconds. People would just move from one source of gambling to the next, I would hazard that most people who piss away money on the pokies uncontrollably are not unfamiliar with other forms of gambling. If you are going to ban pokies you would have to ban all forms of gambling but to me it's akin to banning drinking because some people become alcoholics. Personal responsibility people, everyone wants to blame someone else these days for problems of their own doing.
Pokies are far more addictive than other forms of gambling. The reason they don't have levers these days is because that made them even more addictive.

I would be OK with pokies if they gave even win rates, but they are literally addictive money stealing machines that wow people with pretty lights into giving their money away. I don't even understand how someone can use them. To compare them to other forms of gambling is quite ridiculous. Yes Blackjack, Roulette and sports betting favour the house but they are not nearly as addictive as pressing a button while lights flash at you.

There have been tests run on rats where there is a button that they can press to get food. When the food comes every time they press the button they will press it only when they are hungry, when the food never comes they will stop pressing the button quickly, but when food is given at random times it has been shown that rats will press the button constantly. Pokies are this concept applied to humans, and personally I am disgusted by their existence.

Taking advantage of people's stupidity to make money is a business model for many companies. Selling them things they simply don't need for (apple), or charging exorborant amounts for services that require minimal skills, or even what some taxi drivers do which is taking longer routes to charge high rates. However, people can rapidly lose their lives to gambling, particularly with pokies and to me that just isn't acceptable.

Just because some people are fine doesn't mean you should allow this stuff to happen. I would be absolutely fine with a total ban on alcohol as the benefits do not outweigh the costs IMO. Think of it as enforcing speed limits, I would probably drive fine even if there were no speed limits, but there are complete morons out there who drive crazily even with speed limits. So just because I'm immune to the lure of pokies doesn't mean they should be legal.

For those saying that crack should be legal. That is just plain nuts. People simply cannot handle substances like that, I mean **** me some people are addicted to Coffee.
 

Dobie G

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#86
Investing in the sharemarket is similar to pokies. You take a gamble .Sometimes you win and others you do your arse.But no one is condemning stockbrokers.
Quite a few people have condemned stockbrokers and financial planners for losing a fair chunk of their life savings without an ounce of remorse or any consequence for their actions.
 

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Moderator #89
Investing in the sharemarket is similar to pokies. You take a gamble .Sometimes you win and others you do your arse.But no one is condemning stockbrokers.
Pokies are sheer chance and are programmed to return a profit. There is no comparison.
 

Killer Power

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#90
Investing in the sharemarket is similar to pokies. You take a gamble .Sometimes you win and others you do your arse.But no one is condemning stockbrokers.
Ridiculous. Day trading or hedging might come close if they were done in the complete absence of any analysis but that just isn't reality. I'm yet to see any of the pro-pokie crowd here put up a single fact to back up any of their arguments.
 
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#91
A 1996 study on NSW and Gambling revenue found that for the FY 1993-94 NSW accounted for $1.95 billion lost and $347.7 million in revenue.

How much goes into rehab is another question. It's not just a matter of money lost and what goes to government, it's the social cost to the vulnerable and disadvantaged. One doesn't cancel out the other.

See thats what I mean, a 1996 study. I got to Sydney in 1992 and 2 or 3 years later they started allowing gaming machines in pubs and there were two or three allocations over the next decade. I remember the debates in the mid to late 1990's as music venues shutting down as pokies took up the stage and audience space.

Around 2003 there was a report going round that 1 in ever 5 poker machines in world were in NSW. That was after that 2nd or 3rd allocations to pubs. But i was always skeptical it was that high

If governments were more open we should have 2011-12 figures and soon the 2012-13 figures.
 
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#92
Given the population figures these stats appear to be from 2004 or 2005.
http://www.onlinepokies.com/facts.htm


Pokies Facts & Figures

This section covers some facts about the pokies in Australia and about video slots in general. We also discuss the reason and show you why there is really no way to be a long term winner if you play slot machines over an extended period of time. Quite simply the more you play the more you lose.
The Numbers
- Australia has over 20% of the worlds gaming machines
- There are close to 200,000 slot machines in Australia
- 100,308 of these are found in New South Wales
- Australia's population is 20,264,082 - one game for every 101 people
- 38.6% of adult Australians play the pokies
- In 2003 / 2004 gamblers lost $16.21 billion ($9.1 billion on pokies)
- It is estimated that there are over 300,000 problem gamblers
- The average payout percentage of pokies is 90.89%
- Average chance of winning the jackpot playing 1 line is 1 in 50,000,000
- Average chance of winning the jackpot playing 20 lines is 1 in 2,500,000
- The highest jackpot you can win in a pub is $10,000
- The average player loses $380 dollars every year
- The average problem gambler loses $12,000 each year

The Facts
The most important fact to keep in mind when playing slot machines is that they all have a payout percentage of less than 100%. Any gambling game with a payout of lower than 100% will eventually lead to you losing all of your money if you play long enough. While some players will be short term winners only those that win massive progressive jackpots or win a big amount and never play again will be long term winners.
<snip>
 
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Moderator #93
See thats what I mean, a 1996 study. I got to Sydney in 1992 and 2 or 3 years later they started allowing gaming machines in pubs and there were two or three allocations over the next decade. I remember the debates in the mid to late 1990's as music venues shutting down as pokies took up the stage and audience space.

Around 2003 there was a report going round that 1 in ever 5 poker machines in world were in NSW. That was after that 2nd or 3rd allocations to pubs. But i was always skeptical it was that high

If governments were more open we should have 2011-12 figures and soon the 2012-13 figures.
Figures from a South Australian study in 2005 found that $6.05 billion was spent on all gambling NSW in 2001-02, and $4.3 billion was on gaming machines.

In SA the figure was $909.6 million total and $606.8 million on poker machines.

The Gambler's Rehabilitation Fund in SA for 2003-04 was $3.3 million, $1.8 million from the government, $1.5 million from the Hotels Association.
 
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#94
Ok more up to date figures are from the Productivity Commission Inquiry Report into Gambling in 2010. This looks at everything

You can get all the different downloads at
http://www.pc.gov.au/projects/inquiry/gambling-2009/report

But the one I'm most interest in is
Chapter 2 A snapshot of the gambling industry (PDF - 220 Kb)

From page 2.1
Key points
 The strong growth of the gambling industry during the 1990s appears to be over.
– Around $19 billion was spent by consumers on Australian gambling products in
2008-09. This is an increase from almost $17 billion in 1998-99 and around
$7 billion in 1988-89 (in 2008-09 dollars).
– Gambling comprised 3.1 per cent of household consumption expenditure in
2008-09, down from 3.9 per cent in 1998-99.
– Limited data suggest that participation rates for gambling have also declined.
 The surge in expenditure growth in the 1990s was largely due to the liberalisation of
gaming.
 Gambling expenditure is dominated by electronic gaming machines (EGMs),
although growth in EGM spending has slowed.
– Australians spent around $10.5 billion on EGMs in clubs and hotels and around
$1.4 billion on EGMs in casinos in 2008-09.
– While EGM expenditure growth had already slowed, the introduction of state
smoking bans for gaming machine areas caused a sizeable abrupt decline in
each jurisdiction. Real EGM expenditure growth rates have not yet returned to
pre-ban levels.
– A reduction in the number of machines observed in some jurisdictions has not
always led to reductions in EGM expenditure.
– While EGM usage is less common than in 1999, average real expenditure per
EGM user appears to have risen.
 Growth in casino gaming revenue has slowed in the last ten years. Competitive
pressures from overseas were a factor during the 2000s, and this is likely to
continue.
 Real expenditure on race wagering has been relatively stable for the last twenty
years. Sports wagering continued to grow strongly in the 2000s, although it still
comprises a relatively small share of overall wagering expenditure.
 Some evidence suggests that online gambling (including illegal gaming) has grown
significantly in the 2000s, and could amount to 4 per cent of gambling expenditure.

From page 2.2

Box 2.1 Forms of legal gambling in Australia

Gaming comprises all legal forms of gambling other than wagering — including
lotteries, gaming machines, casino table games and keno. Minor gaming is the
collective name given to art unions, raffles, lucky envelopes and the like.

 Electronic gaming machines (EGMs) are based on random number generation
where wins are generally represented by matched icons. The games are
non-strategic, although players may control the stakes. Less common are
multi-terminal gaming machines (MTGMs), which accommodate several players and
usually simulate games such as drawcard blackjack and roulette. EGMs and
MTGMs are generally counted together in EGM caps.

 Lotteries come in various forms, including lotto, pools and instant lotteries (or
‘scratchies’). Lotto is played by choosing numbers in anticipation that those
numbers will be amongst the winning numbers selected randomly through various
means.

 Keno is a game where a player wagers that chosen numbers will match any of the
20 numbers randomly selected from a group of 80 numbers via a computer system
or a ball drawing device. It is an electronic form of bingo and is typically played in
clubs, casinos and hotels.

 Table games involve laying bets on games such as baccarat, blackjack and
roulette.

Wagering is another name for betting — to stake something (usually money) on the
outcome of a contest or any uncertain event or matter. The principal forms are racing
a nd sports betting.



From pages 2.9 to 2.11
Gambling tax revenue

In total, state taxes (not including GST) accounted for 26 per cent of gambling
expenditure in 2008–09. Gambling provides on average one-tenth of own-state tax
revenue across Australia (table 2.5). The states which rely more heavily on
gambling revenue are not necessarily those with the largest industries.

Jurisdictions with the largest gambling industries, as measured by aggregate
expenditure, also record the largest amounts of gambling tax revenue. However, per
capita gambling tax revenue does not vary in accordance with per capita
expenditure. For instance, while gambling consumption was $90 more per adult in
New South Wales than in Victoria in 2008-09 (table 2.1), the Victorian industry
contributed $94 more tax revenue per adult. This reflects the fact that each state has
different effective tax rates and, in this sense, the profitability of the gambling
industry is different in each state.

Different forms of gambling also contribute differently in each state. EGMs
comprise the single largest source of gambling tax revenue for all states and
territories except Western Australia (figure 2.4). In five states and territories, EGMs
from clubs and hotels alone provide over 50 per cent of such revenue. EGMs also
provide the majority of gambling tax revenue in Tasmania if clubs, hotels and
casinos are all included (around 64 per cent).

Lotteries and pools provide the majority of gambling tax revenue in Western
Australia, and they comprise the second largest source of gambling tax revenue in
all other jurisdictions except the Northern Territory. The considerable tax revenues
associated with lotteries in various jurisdictions are in contrast to their relatively
smaller share of gambling expenditure (figure 2.4). This indicates that effective tax
rates for lottery products are higher than for other forms of gambling. Some lotteries
(such as in New South Wales, South Australia and Western Australia) are also
state-owned.

Online betting and wagering services are categorised differently across the
jurisdictions. Tasmania categorises such expenditure as interactive gambling, while
the Northern Territory categorises revenue from online bookmakers as either racing
or sportsbetting. Interactive (online) gambling services account for around
6 per cent of Tasmania’s gambling tax revenue, which is more than in any other
state or territory — largely reflecting the activities of the Betfair betting exchange
which established operations in that state in 2006 (figure 2.4). Interactive gambling
had also been a feature of the Northern Territory’s tax revenue up until the closure
of Lasseters online casino in 2007, although at less than 1 per cent of their gambling
tax revenue.

Total Tax Revenue collected by state and territory governments in 2008-09 $5,014 million

(a) Total state tax revenue does not include local government tax revenue or goods and services tax (GST) revenue.
 

bomberclifford

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#95
Except that people who gamble using the stock market lose other people's money, not their own.
Lol, this is poppycock.

I invest in the share market, without a broker, with my own money, as do countless thousands of others.

Where on earth do you get your ideas from?
 

Power Raid

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#96
This is on the Vic AFL clubs only, showing how they prey on people's misery, guess Port would be no different?
Pretty sad that revenue can't be earned from more "legitimate" sources rather than from broken families and relationships.

Source

More

Another angle from the spin on pokies, AFL clubs claiming they are a community benefit and not a licence to print money.

Source

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/afl-clubs-claim-rent-for-pokies-venues-new-signage-as-community-benefits/story-fnelctok-1226788385217
More
Sad to see organisations prey on weakness but the old saying still stands try "a fool and their money are soon parted".

It is a shame that families are effected though
 

Power Raid

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#97
Investing in the sharemarket is similar to pokies. You take a gamble .Sometimes you win and others you do your arse.But no one is condemning stockbrokers.
Completely different, the differences

1) there market risk already exists in the economy and business. Gambling simply adds more risk

2) the secondary capital markets provide liquidity for the primary markets. The primary markets are driven by value and provide capital for business to start. What does gambling provide?

3) the stock market is risk neutral. Gambling is weighted to the house.

4) the stock market delivers an average return of 14% pa vs a loss of circa 1% per transaction in gambling.
 

Dobie G

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#98
Lol, this is poppycock.

I invest in the share market, without a broker, with my own money, as do countless thousands of others.

Where on earth do you get your ideas from?
Lurk3r is not referring to the DIY investor using a brokering service but where you put your hard earned with another party who you trust to decide where your money goes. Most of the investment advisors are on commissions and hidden fees which are not in the investors best interest. They don't worry about the investment performance as long as they keep getting their kick back which is often from the capital of the client's investment.
 

raman

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#99
I'm yet to see any of the pro-pokie crowd here put up a single fact to back up any of their arguments.
What would you like to hear?

I for one agree that they can be a destructive force. Like alcohol, coffee, fast food and cigarettes are. I'm yet to see any of the anti pokie crowd make the leap from that to giving the government a moral mandate to ban their use by adults.
 

Dobie G

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The government should protect the vulnerable in the same way it has wage and consumer protection laws.

Source (besides common-sense)
Put simply, poker machines are a form of entertainment that you pay to use.

Pokies are designed to entice. With the lure of flashing lights, thrilling sound effects and the promise of ‘striking it lucky’, it’s easy to forget the facts about pokies. Beneath their colourful visual displays, pokies are simply computer programs that are specifically designed to take more money than they pay back. The fact is, the longer you play a poker machine, the more likely it is that you will lose all of the money that you’ve put into it.

Here are some interesting myths about pokies and the facts about your actual chances of winning.

FICTION: Poker machines are more likely to pay out at particular times of the day.
FACT: The result of each game is entirely random and is not affected by anything going on around you. The game has no way of knowing the amount of money the machine contains.

FICTION: You can confuse poker machines into paying out by altering play patterns.
FACT: No matter what you do, the computer program determining the result does not change. The machine responds only to you pushing the button.

FICTION: You can influence the outcome of a game by touching the machine or pushing buttons in a particular way.
FACT: The machine’s buttons have only two states, on or off. No difference in approach to the pushing of the buttons will yield different results.

FICTION: You can influence the outcome of a game through concentration or positive thought.
FACT: The machine will always remain random, it cannot be convinced otherwise. The machine responds only to you pushing the button and nothing else.

FICTION: You can make up for past losses by continuing to gamble.
FACT: The result of your last game has no bearing on the result of your next game. It is illegal for poker machines in Victoria to base outcomes of games on previous outcomes. Poker machines cannot react to the frequency of wins or losses. The games operate randomly at all times no matter how many wins or losses have occurred in the past.

FICTION: Certain machines are “hotter” or “luckier” than others.
FACT: Poker machines are simply computers programmed to randomly select outcomes. While the odds may change depending on the game being played, individual machines are never “hot” or “lucky”.

FICTION: A “close miss” is an indication of an upcoming win.
FACT: Every event or “spin” is random and a separate event. A near miss means as much as any other loss.

FICTION: If I’m a skilled enough gambler, I can beat the odds.
FACT: Skill has no bearing on the outcome of playing the pokies. Your chance of winning when you sit down are the same as the person next to you.
What are your chances of winning?

Below is a table of your chances of winning various prizes when playing a single line on a poker machine.
At these odds, you’d have to play seven games in a row to have a 50/50 chance of winning four credits. However, you’d have to play more than 7,000 games in a row to have the same chance of winning 500 credits.

In the end, the simple fact is, the machines will win.
Prize value in credits Chance of a prize on a single play line (including scatters)
One chance in
More than 500 credits 10,198
200 to 499 credits 2,669
100 to 199 credits 1,458
50 to 99 credits 450
20 to 49 credits 246
10 to 19 credits 106
5 to 9 credits 53
1 to 4 credits 10
Prize type in symbol combination Chance of combination occurring in a single play line
One chance in
5 of a kind 4,784
4 of a kind 490
3 of a kind 45
2 of a kind 9
http://www.gambleaware.vic.gov.au/know-odds/know-facts-about-pokies
more
 
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