Disgraceful

[Carey_is_King]

How many players do we have who can't play for 4 quarters ?

How many more times do I have to watch us run into a forward line and kick to nobody (or the opposition)?

How many crucial games will Clayton, Sinclair,McLaren,Cochrane cost us ?

When is Pagan going to go ? (He was outcoached tonight in a big way)

Tonight's performance was an absolute disgrace, and ranks as our worst performance for the year in my opinion. It also laid our season to rest.

Pre-season I predicted us to finish 7th, though I hoped for higher. Now that looks like the wishes of an optimist.

 

[Daphne]

 

[Damp Squarie]

Re: Where was Carey? With Richo...

Originally posted by Carey_is_King
How many players do we have who can't play for 4 quarters ?

How many more times do I have to watch us run into a forward line and kick to nobody (or the opposition)?

How many crucial games will Clayton, Sinclair,McLaren,Cochrane cost us ?

When is Pagan going to go ? (He was outcoached tonight in a big way)

Tonight's performance was an absolute disgrace, and ranks as our worst performance for the year in my opinion. It also laid our season to rest.

Pre-season I predicted us to finish 7th, though I hoped for higher. Now that looks like the wishes of an optimist.

Ya just cant cut the MUSTARD....and dont tell me...Carey and that pussy Richardson were DINING out comparing strains and pains

 

[Yianni]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!

Could I be any more frustrated!!! No.

I posted about this earlier in the year and was shouted down as not having any faith in the coaching staff. Hopefully tonight's performance will validate my views.

I am not pissed off that we lost tonight. I am pissed off at the way North played.

It seems that North have two "game plans". I call them the old one and the new one. The old one is the long bombs to noone, minimal posession game. We used it for the finals series last year and the first 3 rounds and ended up flogged twice, and with a percentage of 50. We used it for a half tonight and blew a 36 point lead. Put simply, it doesn't work anymore. It used to, but it won't now.

Then there is the "new" game plan. Run, look for options, take on defenders, break tackles, take risks and (most importantly) INVOLVE THE WHOLE TEAM. Under this new game plan, North are competitive, look good, are unpredictable and are always a good chance at winning.

Now I accept that you can't just change 8 years of programming overnight, but surely there can be NO circumstances under which we should ever use the old gameplan again, unless we are playing for priority draft picks. NEVER EVER AGAIN.

How good did North look 1st half tonight. And how bad in the second. Under pressure, they revert back to the old plan. This must stop. There was a point at which Blakey marked the ball, then bombed from half forward straight to 2 Carlton defenders in the fwd line, when he had 2 free North players on the flanks. This just means he isn't looking where he is kicking it.

Anyway, my night has been ruined and if I keep ranting, I will just make myself feel worse. Is there anyone here actually involved at the club who can explain to me just what the coaching staff are thinking by ever using the old game plan?

 

[Rooboy 96]

Yianni...

I understand your frustration... but I think you answered your own questions... when you said "I accept that you can't just change 8 years of programming overnight" and "Under pressure, they revert back to the old plan. This must stop"... so all I can say is don't expect it to happen overnight... Pagan is trying to change a gameplan that was programmed (using your words) into players minds... and that is why we won 2 Premierships... now it will take time...

So all I can say is look at the first half that is what we have to look forward to... the second half was a step backwards... but with patience we will overcome this...

 

[Darky]

Attending training Wednesday evening, I paid attention to a few of the drills and the scratch matches, and it sort of surprised me a bit, how complicated a few of them are.
I suppose it goes to show that a fair bit of thinking and memory is involved, and when it HAS been drummed into players for several years, it would be very hard to change over to new theories and tactics.
It's a little disappointing though that every player's memory lapsed at the same time on Friday night!

 

[Vansrooboys]

I would like just one forward in position for the whole game, just one. Why they ALL have to push up the ground is beyond me..........please someone stay in the forward line please!

 

[Hmmmmm]

The boys did what every human does in times of stress and pressure. They revert back to what comes naturally, which unfortunatly is a kick it to Carey one out in the foward 50 game which funnily enough doesnt work when Carey isnt playing. Extemely frustrating considering how good the footy looked in the first half.

 

[Shinboners]

How many players do we have who can't play for 4 quarters ?

Quite a few of the kids by the look of it, but then again, the up and coming clubs like Hawthorn. Port Adelaide, and Collingwood also had plenty of players who once couldn't see out four quarters of football. We are past the time where the likes of Archer, Stevens, Blakey et al lift a gear to win games for us. It's up to the players like Colbert, Watt, Cochrane, Lange, McLaren etc. to do the business. But they will all need (apart from Colbert who I still think should play either on the wing or up forward) to get at least 60 games experience before they learn to handle situations like Friday night.

How many more times do I have to watch us run into a forward line and kick to nobody (or the opposition)?

I was very disappointed by this as well, and as it has been pointed out by many above, the team reverted to the old game plan when under pressure. But as Darky and Rooboy96 have pointed out, it will take time to de-program the players.

How many crucial games will Clayton, Sinclair,McLaren,Cochrane cost us ?

When is Pagan going to go ? (He was outcoached tonight in a big way)

So, what cost us the game? The players or the tactics? The thing is that the first half (and for that matter, 11 out of our last 12 quarters prior to Friday night's game) showed that the team can play football and that Pagan is not so dogmatic that he won't change his tactics. It seemed to me that he took the gamble to try and stop Carlton scoring by flooding and then try to sneak a goal on the break. It almost worked as we got to within 1 point in the last quarter and the team reverted to a forward set up with a marking option. But as Malcolm Blight once noted, you try something tactically and if it comes off, you're a genius, and if it doesn't, you're a dill.

If we're going to point the finger at players, then may I ask where Harvey was for most of the night? He hardly had a sniff and I don't remember him coming anywhere close to crumbing a goal. But in the same way I refuse to blame four young players for a meltdown in team confidence in the second half, I can't blame Harvey for the loss. The point is that wins and losses are due to the efforts of the 22 players.

About this time last year, people were calling for Mark William's head over at Port Adelaide, but look at where they are now. And right now, in terms of what's happening on the field, we are nowhere near as much in dire straits as Port were at the same time last year.

If I were to criticise Pagan for anything, it would be that he's not giving the kids enough responsibility and time on the field (and how exciting was it when we had about half a dozen or so rookies playing against Richmond). But he's coached juniors and knows their psychology better than I would, so I'm pretty sure that he knows what he's doing. If you take a look down to Geelong, Mark Thompson was looking like a genius the way he was bringing along Geelong's youngsters last season.....now they've been nothing less than woeful this year. The thing is that most coaches can look pretty good on the efforts of just one year. But truly great coaches do it year in and year out, and that is what Pagan has been doing for the past 20 years.

Tonight's performance was an absolute disgrace, and ranks as our worst performance for the year in my opinion. It also laid our season to rest.

So, performances against Essendon, Brisbane, and Sydney don't ring any bells?

Pre-season I predicted us to finish 7th, though I hoped for higher. Now that looks like the wishes of an optimist.

At the moment, I think we'd do well to make finals. But I'm rather keen on watching how the team develops over the year in terms of players and tactics. Okay, we lost and losses like Friday night, as much as they sting, will happen. But I don't feel anywhere near as pessimistic as I did after round 3 of this year. Down by 7 points, late in the last quarter, and a month ago, I would not believe that we could win. But on Friday, I still thought we could pull off a win. We didn't do it, but the thing is that I reckon the team is playing far better than a month ago and nowhere near as bad as some would say.

 

[DOC]

Top post Shinboners !!

Just to let everybody know Carey_is_King is going thru a change at the moment he is not happy with life in general and is taking a shining to the Gold and Brown. They are at the top of the ladder and their players make no mistakes and have the best past players line up that anybody has ever had.

So the demise of Carey_Is_King and the Birth of Holland_Is_King is only a few weeks away.

Stay tuned for the latest.

HaHa.

Go the Skull !!!
J.I.T.C
THE DOC..

 

[Back Seat Of A Taxi]

How many times do we have to watch Simpson get the ball and kick it anywhere. Yainni, me thinks it was Simpson and not Blakey who kicked it blindly. Harvey does go missing in the big games

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Agree with Shinboners. First 3 rounds it was hard to see anything good happening. It's very disappointing from where the Roos have been over the past few years to be in a winning position and throw a game away in one half of football, but it's a hell of a big step up from where we started the season - couldn't do a thing right over about 12 quarters in a row, wasn't it? Loved the running and passing game in the first half and with more practice and more experience for the younger players they'll just get better at it. Lots to take out of the game and lots to look forward to.

 

[Malibu]

Why, why, why do people keep on suggesting we get rid of Pagan because he is predictable and cannot win us games?

Who do you suggest we replace him with? C'mon if you're so intelligent to make such a bold statement, surely you have an answer as to who we can use instead for a coach........

 

[CURVE]

I agree with Shinboner and (god help me) Rooboy. There is a very bright light at the end of tunnel, only the tunnel maybe a little longer than we hoped. Denis and co have devised a new game plan that on the first half display looks very exciting, but until the players get used to it, they will continue to fall into the old game plan. While I doubt we'll be a top 8 team this year, although a couple of wins in the next two weeks may see us back in the hunt, the next few years are looking very exciting.

Be Patient everybody, because the Roos will be back.

 

[Groucho]

A lot of people are forgetting the obvious, Carlton did have the better "cattle" on the field. I am a pessimist but I thought we'd be doing well to get within 5 goals of them, but having a 6 goal lead at half time gave rise to some optimism( Mind you ,I thought Carlton were so woeful in that first half that a 10 goal lead should have been a minimum !). I thought at half time that if Carlton got the first couple in the third quarter and started to play with their usual cohesion that we would get over run. We were able to hang in there for a while but the pressure applied by a better team (at the moment!) got the better of us. Pagan wasn't out-coached the players were out-pressured and that will happen until we gain the over the ground experience to counter it. This was also close to the best Carlton side they could put on the field (Allan would be their only inclusion) whereas we were missing several players who may have made the difference in class and experience. I also want to have a whinge about two umpiring decisions that may have made the difference: The throw by Kouta to Camporeale for the goal that got them going and the failure to pay a clear mark to McKernan. Carlton supporters think I'm churlish complaining about them as we got the "rub of the green" from the umpires in the first half but to interepret free kicks is one thing to miss the obvious is unforgiveable.

 

[Shermanator]

Originally posted by Groucho
The throw by Kouta to Camporeale for the goal that got them going and the failure to pay a clear mark to McKernan. Carlton supporters think I'm churlish complaining about them as we got the "rub of the green" from the umpires in the first half but to interepret free kicks is one thing to miss the obvious is unforgiveable.

Well said Groucho, McKernan's mark was a certain goal and Kouta had to throw it because he was simply outclassed all night by Colby. If both of these calls were in our favour it may have been all we needed to get over the line.

 

[Blues2001]

Originally posted by Groucho
A lot of people are forgetting the obvious, Carlton did have the better "cattle" on the field. I am a pessimist but I thought we'd be doing well to get within 5 goals of them, but having a 6 goal lead at half time gave rise to some optimism( Mind you ,I thought Carlton were so woeful in that first half that a 10 goal lead should have been a minimum !). I thought at half time that if Carlton got the first couple in the third quarter and started to play with their usual cohesion that we would get over run. We were able to hang in there for a while but the pressure applied by a better team (at the moment!) got the better of us. Pagan wasn't out-coached the players were out-pressured and that will happen until we gain the over the ground experience to counter it. This was also close to the best Carlton side they could put on the field (Allan would be their only inclusion) whereas we were missing several players who may have made the difference in class and experience. I also want to have a whinge about two umpiring decisions that may have made the difference: The throw by Kouta to Camporeale for the goal that got them going and the failure to pay a clear mark to McKernan. Carlton supporters think I'm churlish complaining about them as we got the "rub of the green" from the umpires in the first half but to interepret free kicks is one thing to miss the obvious is unforgiveable.

Yep you are churlish (?). The ones you brought up were wrong decisions so you are right about them, but overall the umpires definitely favoured you guys - you can't blame the loss on them that's for sure. McKernahan's mark was made up for by the free kick he got in the first quarter that resulted in a goal. They showed the replay a couple of times on the scoreboard and everyone around us, even the roo fans couldn't work out what it was for. As for the throw, well it was a throw, but there were unfortunatley about 30 of them on friday night and in every other game you'll see. The umps always miss those little 'flick passes' and it is very annoying. Besides, Kouta was entitled to a good decision going his way since that Colbert wouldn't let go of his jumper the whole bloody night. Holding the ball was what pissed me off the most. In the first quarter, Archer dragged the ball in and sat on top of it but there was no free kick. But every time a Carlton player did something similar they were always pinged. There was one against Hulme that was an absolute disgrace. I'm sorry, but i can't believe that north supporters are complaining about the umps on Friday.

BTW, there were more 'obvious' ones not paid to Carlton. It was even mentioned in the match report on the AFL website, and umpiring criticism in those match reports are as rare as hen's teeth. For some unknown reason the last two posts indicate that North may have won if those had gone their way - the answer is no way! For starters, at best, 13 -12 is a one point win to Carlton, and secondly, if the umps were fair to both sides on Friday night I reckon we may have won by 5 goals. Admit it, you lost because we are better and because you can't play a game out.

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Blues2001
Besides, Kouta was entitled to a good decision going his way since that Colbert wouldn't let go of his jumper the whole bloody night.

Never mind that Steve Silvagni's entire career is based on holding onto his opponent's jumper......

 

[Blues2001]

Originally posted by Shinboners


Never mind that Steve Silvagni's entire career is based on holding onto his opponent's jumper......

Talk about disrespectful of a champion. Besides, he didn't do it on Friday night (was playing forward mostly) so it didn't impact on the game we are talking about.

 

[Malibu]

SILVAGNI - CHAMPION????? HA HA HA HA, HOW FUNNY!!!!

What a joke that that fool got fullback of the Century......Old Jack must've thrown a few dollars in for that to of happened!

God help you if you look as ugly as your avatar!

 

[Blues2001]

Originally posted by Malibu
SILVAGNI - CHAMPION????? HA HA HA HA, HOW FUNNY!!!!

What a joke that that fool got fullback of the Century......Old Jack must've thrown a few dollars in for that to of happened!

God help you if you look as ugly as your avatar!

You fool. I can't believe that you can't admit SOS is a champion - full back of the century - voted by a panel of experts from different clubs don't forget, not by the Carlton match committee. I can admit that Carey is a champion, even if SOS thrashed him almost every time they met. Carey is/was better than SOS despite so often losing this matchup. Why can't you admit SOS is a champ too?

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Blues2001


Talk about disrespectful of a champion. Besides, he didn't do it on Friday night (was playing forward mostly) so it didn't impact on the game we are talking about.

Now, now....you're on our board and we will slag off anyone we like.

Now behave yourself, you're on our boards as our guest.

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Blues2001


You fool. I can't believe that you can't admit SOS is a champion - full back of the century - voted by a panel of experts from different clubs don't forget, not by the Carlton match committee. I can admit that Carey is a champion, even if SOS thrashed him almost every time they met. Carey is/was better than SOS despite so often losing this matchup. Why can't you admit SOS is a champ too?

Full back of the century my arse......it should have been David Dench. And Geoff Southby was better than SOS. So was Chris Langford for that matter.

We also note that SOS begged Carey for Carey's jumper after the 1999 Grand Final.....we note that no opposition player has ever bothered to ask for that so-called "champion" SOS's jumper.....

 

[Blues2001]

Originally posted by Shinboners


Full back of the century my arse......it should have been David Dench. And Geoff Southby was better than SOS. So was Chris Langford for that matter.

We also note that SOS begged Carey for Carey's jumper after the 1999 Grand Final.....we note that no opposition player has ever bothered to ask for that so-called "champion" SOS's jumper.....

Maybe Dench, maybe Southby, they were great but SOS had to play against the best generation of full forwards ever. No way Chris Langford - Lockett said that SOS was clearly the best he ever played on. No mention of Langford there.

And about the 99 GF, Carey is a champion through and through. So is SOS - not as good as Carey though. Don't forget that SOS beat Carey convincingly that day - pity the scoreboard result wasn't as good. But you're only as good as your last game, and that was a win over the Kangaroos!!

Shiners, I was just reading this post to see what Kanga fans thought of the game. I just couldn't resist the temptation to post when I saw that a few of you were whingeing about the umps. I don't mean any disrespect to your board though, or your supporters - but I can post here if i like. And if one of my players is getting bagged out then I don't see why I can't stick up for him. But please don't think I just came in here to ******** stir because I haven't.

 

[Rooboy 96]

Blues2001...

Silvagni is the greatest jumper tugger to ever play the game...

and when Carlscum beat the almighty Kangaroos in a Grand Final... come back and brag as much as you like... but until then... just remember 1965 and 1999... because that is all that us Rooboys think of when the word Carlscum is heard...