Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[grayfox9]

And Freeman and Scharenberg.

What's your point? Brisbane also picked up Schache, Aish and Sam Mayes during their rebuilding days. Draft busts do not invalidate the importance of the draft, and certainly don't invalidate the importance of players like McCluggage, Bailey, Rayner in their triumphs.

 

[grayfox9]

how many of those are father sons or academy picks? Also Brisbane totally bottomed out and were terrible for years before this run. Collingwood have been competitive every year bar 2021 for at least a few decades now.

Who cares whether or not they were academy picks? In Brisbane's case they got good luck, but it still amounts to high quality youth through the draft, something Collingwood clearly lacks.

Brisbane "bottomed out" from 2010-2018. One of the reasons they started challenging again was... the draft. Finishing low on the ladder afforded them the opportunity to recruit players like McCluggage, Berry, Bailey, Rayner, all of whom have played important roles in their recent success.

Once again, suggesting the draft means nothing is incredibly stupid

 

[Fadge]

What's your point? Brisbane also picked up Schache, Aish and Sam Mayes during their rebuilding days. Draft busts do not invalidate the importance of the draft, and certainly don't invalidate the importance of players like McCluggage, Bailey, Rayner in their triumphs.

And in the meantime, they had 15 years with barely a finals win.

That's not how Collingwood operate.

 

[Fadge]

Brisbane "bottomed out" from 2010-2018.

Yep. Just a decade on the bottom...

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

Collingwood made a GF in 2018 and have really only had one really poor season since, in 2021 winning 6 games. So we'll call that 'not rebuilding'. With the exception of Geelong, which other team in the top 8 hasn't rebuilt?

Adelaide, Brisbane, Fremantle, Gold Coast, Hawthorn were all pretty ordinary in the 2010s and/or 2020s. GWS are a bit of a different case as they have a bit of a revolving door or entry concession players into picks into new players into picks.

First you just have to seperate the Northern teams from the rest. The academies break the system. Brisbane after a good run in finals have been able to top up with insane generational talent at a discount. Fremantle, Gold Coast and Hawthorn haven't won a flag or made Grand Finals so I am not sure it really matters. Gold Coast have been given an insane amount of concessions and get to top up in the draft for free with freak academy players and just traded for Petracca so they don't play by the same rules as Collingwood or any other clubs.

Rebuilds don't work anymore because no free agent wants to go to a shit team, shit teams don't get to draft the best players consistently and there is a new team coming in. It really doesn't matter if other clubs did something in 2016 etc because the draft game has changed a lot since then.

 

[grayfox9]

And in the meantime, they had 15 years with barely a finals win.

That's not how Collingwood operate.

You're free to live in fantasy land at your leisure, but squad demographics do not lie, and Collingwood right now have a very similar squad demographic to Hawthorn in 2016, Fremantle in 2015, Richmond in 2022, etc. It's perfectly logical to suggest sustaining a Premiership challenge is non-trivial.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

Who cares whether or not they were academy picks? In Brisbane's case they got good luck, but it still amounts to high quality youth through the draft, something Collingwood clearly lacks.

Brisbane "bottomed out" from 2010-2018. One of the reasons they started challenging again was... the draft. Finishing low on the ladder afforded them the opportunity to recruit players like McCluggage, Berry, Bailey, Rayner, all of whom have played important roles in their recent success.

Once again, suggesting the draft means nothing is incredibly stupid

Because Collingwood can't get access to Brisbanes academy players, so rebuilding through the draft is way harder for a Vic based club.

Brisbane ate shit for a decade, in that time Collingwood played finals and were a kick away from a premiership. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[grayfox9]

Rebuilds don't work anymore because no free agent wants to go to a shit team, shit teams don't get to draft the best players consistently and there is a new team coming in. It really doesn't matter if other clubs did something in 2016 etc because the draft game has changed a lot since then.

"Rebuilds don't work"?
Huh?
Are you going to pretend all the work Hawthorn has been doing over the past 7 years "didn't work"?
Most of their best players right now were acquired through the draft, and they absolutely smashed your club in round 22 last year.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

You're free to live in fantasy land at your leisure, but squad demographics do not lie, and Collingwood right now have a very similar squad demographic to Hawthorn in 2016, Fremantle in 2015, Richmond in 2022, etc. It's perfectly logical to suggest sustaining a Premiership challenge is non-trivial.

Collingwood players under 31 years old.

Daniel Mcstay, Darcy Cameron, Darcy Moore, Jordan De Goey

Collingwoods good players under 30 as of this post.

Dan Houston, Maynard, Schulz, Lipinski, Josh Daicos, Harry Perryman, Isaac Quaynor, Bobby Hill, Beau McCreery, Nick Daicos, Ned Long, Billy Frampton

Collingwood exciting young players

Ed Allan, Harvey Harrison, Charlie West, Zac McCarthy, Tew Jiath, Jack Buller.

This is a really good list profile.

 

[grayfox9]

Because Collingwood can't get access to Brisbanes academy players, so rebuilding through the draft is way harder for a Vic based club.

Brisbane ate shit for a decade, in that time Collingwood played finals and were a kick away from a premiership. Different strokes for different folks.

Why are you pretending the players I mentioned don't exist? Are you also pretending players like McCluggage, Rayner and Bailey aren't playing big roles for them right now?

Ashcroft, Ashcroft and Fletcher weren't even academy picks, they were father/son. Andrews was selected late in the draft after every club (including yours) passed on him.

Are you also going to pretend Melbourne's flag in 2021 counts for nothing? Do you need to be reminded of how much they benefited from quality from the draft? You can't blame "northern concessions" for that Premiership.
And how about Richmond's 3 flags in 4 years? Will you pretend that the draft didn't play a big role for them? Or will you try to classify that their success occurred too long ago?

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

"Rebuilds don't work"?
Huh?
Are you going to pretend all the work Hawthorn has been doing over the past 7 years "didn't work"?
Most of their best players right now were acquired through the draft, and they absolutely smashed your club in round 22 last year.

Took 7 years, hasn't delivered a flag, relied heavily on recruiting, free agency and internal development. They look exciting, but in their off years collingwood has won flags and played deep in finals.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

Why are you pretending the players I mentioned don't exist? Are you also pretending players like McCluggage, Rayner and Bailey aren't playing big roles for them right now?

Ashcroft, Ashcroft and Fletcher weren't even academy picks, they were father/son. Andrews was selected late in the draft after every club (including yours) passed on him.

Are you also going to pretend Melbourne's flag in 2021 counts for nothing? Do you need to be reminded of how much they benefited from quality from the draft? You can't blame "northern concessions" for that Premiership.
And how about Richmond's 3 flags in 4 years? Will you pretend that the draft didn't play a big role for them? Or will you try to classify that their success occurred too long ago?

They spent a decade being terrible. The next decade will be totally different and much harder to rebuild in. I hope that is clear.

Also their best player in that time L.Neale was a high profile recruit.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

Why are you pretending the players I mentioned don't exist? Are you also pretending players like McCluggage, Rayner and Bailey aren't playing big roles for them right now?

Ashcroft, Ashcroft and Fletcher weren't even academy picks, they were father/son. Andrews was selected late in the draft after every club (including yours) passed on him.

Are you also going to pretend Melbourne's flag in 2021 counts for nothing? Do you need to be reminded of how much they benefited from quality from the draft? You can't blame "northern concessions" for that Premiership.
And how about Richmond's 3 flags in 4 years? Will you pretend that the draft didn't play a big role for them? Or will you try to classify that their success occurred too long ago?

Collingwood doesn't have access to Brisbanes Father/Son picks. I hope that makes sense.

 

[grayfox9]

Collingwood players under 31 years old.

Daniel Mcstay, Darcy Cameron, Darcy Moore, Jordan De Goey

Collingwoods good players under 30 as of this post.

Dan Houston, Maynard, Schulz, Lipinski, Josh Daicos, Harry Perryman, Isaac Quaynor, Bobby Hill, Beau McCreery, Nick Daicos, Ned Long, Billy Frampton

Collingwood exciting young players

Ed Allan, Harvey Harrison, Charlie West, Zac McCarthy, Tew Jiath, Jack Buller.

This is a really good list profile.

This is just your standard glass half-full selective bias.
I can just as easily do the same thing the other way: All of McStay, Cameron, Moore, de Goey, Frampton, Maynard will be 30 in 2026. Cameron and McStay 31. Houston and Schultz are both 29 this year.
Your club tried to shop de Goey around last trade period; I'd say that says a lot more than your rose-tinted outlook.

Ed Allan? Harvey Harrison? Tew Jiath? Ned Long?
Ok, just keep believing you have some of the best youth in the competition. Totally not the same as Hawthorn fans 10 years ago carrying on about Hartung, Burton and Litherland being elite young talent.

 

[grayfox9]

Collingwood doesn't have access to Brisbanes Father/Son picks. I hope that makes sense.

It's not my problem you're a little too dense to register a simple point here.
Regardless of the exact method those players were acquired, they are still quality young players. You need quality young players coming through to sustain a Premiership challenge. This is typically done through the draft.

 

[grayfox9]

Took 7 years, hasn't delivered a flag, relied heavily on recruiting, free agency and internal development. They look exciting, but in their off years collingwood has won flags and played deep in finals.

Why are you using the plural for flag?

Honestly, you can dig your heels all you like, but it doesn't make it any less stupid to suggest the draft is meaningless when literally every single flag from the last 20 years proves you overwhelmingly wrong

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

It's not my problem you're a little too dense to register a simple point here.
Regardless of the exact method those players were acquired, they are still quality young players. You need quality young players coming through to sustain a Premiership challenge. This is typically done through the draft.

'regardless of the exact method' is crazy considering that is literally what is being discussed here. If you can't get access to the best players in the draft why would you deliberately tank to get a better draft pick when you can trade those picks for established players to bolster your competitive advantage to attract even more top talent?

 

[grayfox9]

'regardless of the exact method' is crazy considering that is literally what is being discussed here. If you can't get access to the best players in the draft why would you deliberately tank to get a better draft pick when you can trade those picks for established players to bolster your competitive advantage to attract even more top talent?

It's difficult to explain this to someone who pretends that McCluggage, Rayner, Bailey, Berry, Starcevich etc don't exist.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

This is just your standard glass half-full selective bias.
I can just as easily do the same thing the other way: All of McStay, Cameron, Moore, de Goey, Frampton, Maynard will be 30 in 2026. Cameron and McStay 31. Houston and Schultz are both 29 this year.
Your club tried to shop de Goey around last trade period; I'd say that says a lot more than your rose-tinted outlook.

Ed Allan? Harvey Harrison? Tew Jiath? Ned Long?
Ok, just keep believing you have some of the best youth in the competition. Totally not the same as Hawthorn fans 10 years ago carrying on about Hartung, Burton and Litherland being elite young talent.

Where the ever living **** are you getting that we tried to trade JDG LOL. We have him on an insanely favourable contract and he is a total beast for us.

Never said we have some of the best youth in the competition. (Though we do have the best young player ever for what its worth) but that we have a really strong list with exciting young prospects who have shown well. Especially Ned Long and Ed Allan.

 

[txbyhull]

Where the ever living **** are you getting that we tried to trade JDG LOL. We have him on an insanely favourable contract and he is a total beast for us.

Never said we have some of the best youth in the competition. (Though we do have the best young player ever for what its worth) but that we have a really strong list with exciting young prospects who have shown well. Especially Ned Long and Ed Allan.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

View attachment 2535645

This is a joke right? You have quoted exactly 6 words from JDG and each of those articles goes on to state JDG never asked to be traded and was told explicitly by the club we weren't trying to trade him.

His actual quotes are

“I was actually in Bali with my partner. To be honest, I didn’t really hear a lot of it, a few little whispers here and there,” De Goey began on SEN radio."

“But for us (he and his camp), we maintained the same answer the whole time. We’re happy at Collingwood and nothing seems to be changing from our end. And the club was exactly the same."

“My manager started getting calls. ‘Leppa’ (Lepistch) was like: ‘Is this happening? Is this happening? Are you going to other clubs?’ And we’re like: ‘Nah, none of this is happening, this is just the rumour mill’."

"
“To be honest, I’m 29 now, I’m not stupid. Any player on a list is available for the right price or the club is going to get something good out of it,“ De Goey continued.

“I just know that’s the way the industry is going, you’ve got to be open to stuff like that. It’s happening so much these days, just look at the recent trade period and some of the players that got tossed around."

Nice try I guess?

 

[grayfox9]

Where the ever living **** are you getting that we tried to trade JDG LOL. We have him on an insanely favourable contract and he is a total beast for us.

When a large volume of trade talk emerges for a player who is on a big contract but is constantly injured and/or under-performing, it generally indicates the club is trying to shop that player around.

Evidently, you are the type of person who believes giving a player "an insanely favourable contract" means the club is relentlessly determined to keep them. With that in mind, I am interested to hear your coping mechanism for why your club traded Adam Treloar and Brodie Grundy. Both were on big, long-term contracts; surely that must mean Collingwood wanted to keep them?

 

[Cyclops]

It's not my problem you're a little too dense to register a simple point here.
Regardless of the exact method those players were acquired, they are still quality young players. You need quality young players coming through to sustain a Premiership challenge. This is typically done through the draft.

In the last 15 years the draft was nuked by GWS and Suns getting extraordinary assistance, along with the academy stuff and IIRC salary cap and soft recruiting assistance (eg GAj).

In that period we have had a couple of flag windows, as demonstrated by us playing in grand finals.

The two clubs with all the draft picks have reached the Grand Final once between them and got smashed.

Most of the clubs who stripped the club back to the metal like Essendon and North have not made the finals. Hawthorn might be the only ground up rebuild to make finals.

Geelong, Collingwood, Richmond and Brisbane had a mix of FAs, F/S, some smart drafting (but not phenomenal) and dominated the era.

The corrupted draft and too many clubs lowered the general standard of footy, so worse clubs can dart in, but by and large well funded operations with of field clout to protect little rule advantages have been the winners. Top notch coaching panels seem to be at least as important as first round draft picks, and fitness teams also count for a lot.

The draft as such has not determined flag success, otherwise Giants and Suns would have five each.

 

[Fadge]

You're free to live in fantasy land at your leisure, but squad demographics do not lie, and Collingwood right now have a very similar squad demographic to Hawthorn in 2016, Fremantle in 2015, Richmond in 2022, etc. It's perfectly logical to suggest sustaining a Premiership challenge is non-trivial.

You hope.

They also have a similar demographic to Collingwood in 2005 and 2021, Geelong whenever and Sydney whenever.

Those 3 teams do it very differently.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

When a large volume of trade talk emerges for a player who is on a big contract but is constantly injured and/or under-performing, it generally indicates the club is trying to shop that player around.

Evidently, you are the type of person who believes giving a player "an insanely favourable contract" means the club is relentlessly determined to keep them. With that in mind, I am interested to hear your coping mechanism for why your club traded Adam Treloar and Brodie Grundy. Both were on big, long-term contracts; surely that must mean Collingwood wanted to keep them?

Mate. JDG's contract is favourable to THE CLUB. So they won't move off it. Grundy and Treloar had favourable contracts FOR THEM. Far out I am doing a lot of the leg-work for you here it is quite embarassing.