Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[Fadge]

"Rebuilds don't work"?
Huh?
Are you going to pretend all the work Hawthorn has been doing over the past 7 years "didn't work"?
Most of their best players right now were acquired through the draft, and they absolutely smashed your club in round 22 last year.

And finished lower than us in 2025, and were eliminated by a lesser team, and have won a flag less recently than us..

But apart from that, you're spot on!

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

In the last 15 years the draft was nuked by GWS and Suns getting extraordinary assistance, along with the academy stuff and IIRC salary cap and soft recruiting assistance (eg GAj).

In that period we have had a couple of flag windows, as demonstrated by us playing in grand finals.

The two clubs with all the draft picks have reached the Grand Final once between them and got smashed.

Most of the clubs who stripped the club back to the metal like Essendon and North have not made the finals. Hawthorn might be the only ground up rebuild to make finals.

Geelong, Collingwood, Richmond and Brisbane had a mix of FAs, F/S, some smart drafting (but not phenomenal) and dominated the era.

The corrupted draft and too many clubs lowered the general standard of footy, so worse clubs can dart in, but by and large well funded operations with of field clout to protect little rule advantages have been the winners. Top notch coaching panels seem to be at least as important as first round draft picks, and fitness teams also count for a lot.

The draft as such has not determined flag success, otherwise Giants and Suns would have five each.

Not to mention how many of those priority picks for GWS and GC went to Geelong, Richmond, Melbourne etc and won mulitple flags or played in multiple grand finals.

It really took Dimma going to GC for them to be a serious football program.

 

[Scotland]

"Rebuilds don't work"?
Huh?
Are you going to pretend all the work Hawthorn has been doing over the past 7 years "didn't work"?
Most of their best players right now were acquired through the draft, and they absolutely smashed your club in round 22 last year.

Rebuilds work. And they don't.

Not rebuilding works. And it doesn't.

If you look at the list profile of Collingwood in 2022-24 compared to West Coast it's hard to make the case in 2021 that one team should rebuild and the other should not. But that's footy, results are what they are and everything is judged in hindsight. WC did not choose to be in the position we're in now. It's an outcome of a strategy from 2019-2022 that didn't work. Again that's footy.

Hawthorn for example chose not to rebuild. They chose to top up because they thought that was a good strategy. It wasn't and everyone knew it wasn't, and they faded into irrelevance. Then they decided to change tack and got rid of Mitchell, O'Meara etc. and some people said they cut too deep. And now they are topping up again to a degree. There is no right or wrong way to any of this, you just need acknowledge where you are and what you can do about it. Richmond fell in a hole and through a combination of already having early picks and some players having currency and wanting to leave they went down the conventional rebuild path. They could have stubbornly kept all their contracted players and been an 8-10 win ream for a few years.

 

[Fadge]

It's not my problem you're a little too dense to register a simple point here.
Regardless of the exact method those players were acquired, they are still quality young players. You need quality young players coming through to sustain a Premiership challenge. This is typically done through the draft.

Tell us all about these quality young players Collingwood, Geelong and Sydney have picked up at the top end of the draft over the last two quarter of a century to have enabled them to play in circa 20 Grand Finals between them?

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

Rebuilds work. And they don't.

Not rebuilding works. And it doesn't.

If you look at the list profile of Collingwood in 2022-24 compared to West Coast it's hard to make the case in 2021 that one team should rebuild and the other should not. But that's footy, results are what they are and everything is judged in hindsight. WC did not choose to be in the position we're in now. It's an outcome of a strategy from 2019-2022 that didn't work. Again that's footy.

Hawthorn for example chose not to rebuild. They chose to top up because they thought that was a good strategy. It wasn't and everyone knew it wasn't, and they faded into irrelevance. Then they decided to change tack and got rid of Mitchell, O'Meara etc. and some people said they cut too deep. And now they are topping up again to a degree. There is no right or wrong way to any of this, you just need acknowledge where you are and what you can do about it. Richmond fell in a hole and through a combination of already having early picks and some players having currency and wanting to leave they went down the conventional rebuild path. They could have stubbornly kept all their contracted players and been an 8-10 win ream for a few years.

Sidenote:

What do you think of Don Pyke as CEO and Elizabeth Gaines as President? I am utterly gobsmacked Don Pyke got another job after his horrendous performance in Adelaide.

 

[txbyhull]

This is a joke right? You have quoted exactly 6 words from JDG and each of those articles goes on to state JDG never asked to be traded and was told explicitly by the club we weren't trying to trade him.

His actual quotes are

“I was actually in Bali with my partner. To be honest, I didn’t really hear a lot of it, a few little whispers here and there,” De Goey began on SEN radio."

“But for us (he and his camp), we maintained the same answer the whole time. We’re happy at Collingwood and nothing seems to be changing from our end. And the club was exactly the same."

“My manager started getting calls. ‘Leppa’ (Lepistch) was like: ‘Is this happening? Is this happening? Are you going to other clubs?’ And we’re like: ‘Nah, none of this is happening, this is just the rumour mill’."

"
“To be honest, I’m 29 now, I’m not stupid. Any player on a list is available for the right price or the club is going to get something good out of it,“ De Goey continued.

“I just know that’s the way the industry is going, you’ve got to be open to stuff like that. It’s happening so much these days, just look at the recent trade period and some of the players that got tossed around."

Nice try I guess?

You're so right, the trade talks appeared out of absolutely nowhere and had zero bearing in reality inside the club. He would totally come out and say "yeah we talked about it" when he is returning to the club.

 

[grayfox9]

Mate. JDG's contract is favourable to THE CLUB. So they won't move off it. Grundy and Treloar had favourable contracts FOR THEM. Far out I am doing a lot of the leg-work for you here it is quite embarassing.

By all means keep believing that. I'm sure the club is thrilled about him being on big money long-term while missing half the season twice in a row

 

[grayfox9]

You hope.

They also have a similar demographic to Collingwood in 2005 and 2021, Geelong whenever and Sydney whenever.

Those 3 teams do it very differently.

Nah, you're in fantasy land.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

Why are you using the plural for flag?

Honestly, you can dig your heels all you like, but it doesn't make it any less stupid to suggest the draft is meaningless when literally every single flag from the last 20 years proves you overwhelmingly wrong

Because we have won multiple flags without a true 'rebuild' see below for the trackrecord since 2000.

2025	Made Finals	Preliminary Finalist (4th)
2024	Missed Finals	9th
2023	Made Finals	Premiers (1st)
2022	Made Finals	Preliminary Finalist (4th)
2021	Missed Finals	17th
2020	Made Finals	Semi Finalist (8th)
2019	Made Finals	Preliminary Finalist (4th)
2018	Made Finals	Grand Finalist (Runner-up) (3rd)
2017	Missed Finals	13th
2016	Missed Finals	12th
2015	Missed Finals	12th
2014	Missed Finals	11th
2013	Made Finals	Elimination Finalist (6th)
2012	Made Finals	Preliminary Finalist (4th)
2011	Made Finals	Grand Finalist (Runner-up) (1st)
2010	Made Finals	Premiers (1st)
2009	Made Finals	Preliminary Finalist (4th)
2008	Made Finals	Semi Finalist (6th)
2007	Made Finals	Preliminary Finalist (4th)
2006	Made Finals	Elimination Finalist (5th)
2005	Missed Finals	15th
2004	Missed Finals	13th
2003	Made Finals	Grand Finalist (Runner-up) (2nd)
2002	Made Finals	Grand Finalist (Runner-up) (4th)
2001	Missed Finals	9th
2000	Missed Finals	15th

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

By all means keep believing that. I'm sure the club is thrilled about him being on big money long-term while missing half the season twice in a row

... De Goey is on less than a mill a year and has been one of the best finals players this century. and his contract expires next year, do you have a brain injury or something?

 

[Cdog71]

Rebuilds don't work anymore because no free agent wants to go to a shit team, shit teams don't get to draft the best players consistently and there is a new team coming in. It really doesn't matter if other clubs did something in 2016 etc because the draft game has changed a lot since then.

I don’t agree about the Bris rebuild being setup solely through the draft I agree with some of what your saying there.
Alotve good people where parachuted into that club and I think they got alotve attention from the AFL and received some unusually good deals.
But I do think Hawthorn have built from the draft and I don’t think we’ve seen the best of them yet.
They managed to draw quality across and if it wasn’t for Essendon being too difficult to deal with would’ve added more in the last trade period.

 

[txbyhull]

... De Goey is on less than a mill a year and has been one of the best finals players this century. and his contract expires next year, do you have a brain injury or something?

Doesn't at all change his comment though?

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

I don’t agree about the Bris rebuild being setup solely through the draft I agree with some of what your saying there.
Alotve good people where parachuted into that club and I think they got alotve attention from the AFL and received some unusually good deals.
But I do think Hawthorn have built from the draft and I don’t think we’ve see. The best of them yet.
They managed to draw quality across and if it wasn’t for Essendon being too difficult to deal with would’ve added more in the last trade period.

Hawks have finished 16th at worst in 2023 and had a 3-peat 10 within the past 10 years. I reckon thats in outlier territory. Also they haven't really achieved the end goal yet, one to watch for sure. They have also been cut-throat in free agent aquisiton because they know you can't sustainably build through the draft.

 

[grayfox9]

Rebuilds work. And they don't.

Not rebuilding works. And it doesn't.

If you look at the list profile of Collingwood in 2022-24 compared to West Coast it's hard to make the case in 2021 that one team should rebuild and the other should not. But that's footy, results are what they are and everything is judged in hindsight. WC did not choose to be in the position we're in now. It's an outcome of a strategy from 2019-2022 that didn't work. Again that's footy.

Hawthorn for example chose not to rebuild. They chose to top up because they thought that was a good strategy. It wasn't and everyone knew it wasn't, and they faded into irrelevance. Then they decided to change tack and got rid of Mitchell, O'Meara etc. and some people said they cut too deep. And now they are topping up again to a degree. There is no right or wrong way to any of this, you just need acknowledge where you are and what you can do about it. Richmond fell in a hole and through a combination of already having early picks and some players having currency and wanting to leave they went down the conventional rebuild path. They could have stubbornly kept all their contracted players and been an 8-10 win ream for a few years.

I do not care for the word "rebuild", or looking at it as making a decision to "bottom out".

My only point is that you need quality young players coming through to sustain success. Whether that's through the draft, getting lucky with father/son, it doesn't matter. Without quality youth, challenging for success cannot be sustained. West Coast had poor youth in 2022, Richmond had poor youth in 2022, Hawthorn had poor youth in 2016. There's a pattern there.

Collingwood's list profile right now has a dearth of quality youth, and they are still dependent on a 38 year old Pendlebury and 35 year old Sidebottom to play important roles. Because of this, I do not think they can challenge for the Premiership for a while, and it's only going to get harder as those older players are phased out.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

Doesn't at all change his comment though?

"Big Money" - False
"Long Term" - False
Missed half the season in the past two years - True

2/3rd of your statement being totally bullshit probably does change the nature of the comments tbh.

 

[txbyhull]

I do not care for the word "rebuild", or looking at it as making a decision to "bottom out".

My only point is that you need quality young players coming through to sustain success. Whether that's through the draft, getting lucky with father/son, it doesn't matter. Without quality youth, challenging for success cannot be sustained. West Coast had poor youth in 2022, Richmond had poor youth in 2022, Hawthorn had poor youth in 2016. There's a pattern there.

Collingwood's list profile right now has a dearth of quality youth, and they are still dependent on a 38 year old Pendlebury and 35 year old Sidebottom to play important roles. Because of this, I do not think they can challenge for the Premiership for a while, and it's only going to get harder as those older players are phased out.

Don't worry the rest of their list is u31 (30) and u30 (29)

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

I do not care for the word "rebuild", or looking at it as making a decision to "bottom out".

My only point is that you need quality young players coming through to sustain success. Whether that's through the draft, getting lucky with father/son, it doesn't matter. Without quality youth, challenging for success cannot be sustained. West Coast had poor youth in 2022, Richmond had poor youth in 2022, Hawthorn had poor youth in 2016. There's a pattern there.

Collingwood's list profile right now has a dearth of quality youth, and they are still dependent on a 38 year old Pendlebury and 35 year old Sidebottom to play important roles. Because of this, I do not think they can challenge for the Premiership for a while, and it's only going to get harder as those older players are phased out.

Collingwood have the greatest young player of all time and like 6 AA's under 30, what the fk are you on about LOL.

 

[txbyhull]

"Big Money" - False
"Long Term" - False
Missed half the season in the past two years - True

2/3rd of your statement being totally bullshit probably does change the nature of the comments tbh.

When you are playing less than half the season no club is going to want you for 2 more seasons at 800k+, especially when the whole plan is to stupidly rely on continually bringing in a few new FA every season

 

[grayfox9]

Because we have won multiple flags without a true 'rebuild' see below for the trackrecord since 2000.

I find it perplexing that you say Pendlebury and Sidebottom's role in Collingwood's success doesn't count because "times have changed", and yet you're digging up 2002/2003 as an example of your club's track record.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

When you are playing less than half the season no club is going to want you for 2 more seasons at 800k+, especially when the whole plan is to stupidly rely on continually bringing in a few new FA every season

So you are just going to ignore the fact they were just wrong about their propositions LOL. 800k is insanely cheap for JDG's output. 'stupidly rely on a few new FA every season' has been the winning model since free agency came in. Hope that helps.

 

[DaicosDisciple35]

I find it perplexing that you say Pendlebury and Sidebottom's role in Collingwood's success doesn't count because "times have changed", and yet you're digging up 2002/2003 as an example of your club's track record.

Doesn't count? what? Of course it counts but if you are expecting a club to just keep using the same plan it did in 2005, in 2026 then you are a clown.

 

[txbyhull]

So you are just going to ignore the fact they were just wrong about their propositions LOL. 800k is insanely cheap for JDG's output.

Wouldn't be paying 800k for 2 more years if I get 2 good games out of 11 personally but slay.

'stupidly rely on a few new FA every season' has been the winning model since free agency came in. Hope that helps.

The best teams get great FA regularly while also bringing through youth. Pies have 1 good player u25 and while he is a top 3 player in the comp the last 2 years, he was a freebie. Not bringing through any actual youth.

 

[grayfox9]

Doesn't count? what? Of course it counts but if you are expecting a club to just keep using the same plan it did in 2005, in 2026 then you are a clown.

Just highlighting your embarrassing contradictions

You tried to cry that the draft is meaningless, then upon being informed that Sidebottom and Pendlebury were acquired through the draft (and are still playing big roles today), you proceed to insist that times have changed, and therefore they are not valid examples. Then upon being confronted with an example of Brisbane using the draft to help build a Premiership-winning squad, you cry that it's because of academies, simultaneously ignoring all the draftees that weren't academy picks. Then you start rambling about how Ned Long, Ed Allan and Zac McCarthy are extremely exciting young talent, and that 29 year olds Dan Houston and Maynard make up the core of your youth.

 

[Worm4]

... De Goey is on less than a mill a year and has been one of the best finals players this century. and his contract expires next year, do you have a brain injury or something?

One of the best finals players this century ? Wtf are you smoking ?
He went the wimp way out in the 3rd quarter against the Lions, and then they proceeded to steamroll you in your most important game for 2025.
Get off the grass , seriously

 

[txbyhull]

One of the best finals players this century ? Wtf are you smoking ?
He went the wimp way out in the 3rd quarter against the Lions, and then they proceeded to steamroll you in your most important game for 2025.
Get off the grass , seriously

Hope you didn't miss this gem

JDG - one of the best finals players
Crisp - one of the best finals players
Sidebottom - one of the best finals players
Pendlebury - one of the best finals players
Nick Daicos - one of the greatest players ever entering his prime
Darcy Cameron - one of the best finals players
Josh Daicos - AA level midfielder
Ned Long - Promising young player with huge frame and tank that had some insane breakout performances last year

What am I missing? This pies midfield group is incredibly potent.