Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[ShereKhan]

Where was Rowell in the AA team, out of interest?

Ahhhh....nice diversion. And completely irrelevant given the meeedddyyyaaa are about the last people I'd go to for best player assessments.

The meeedddyyyaaaa wouldn't have Naicos on the bench if they rated him in the best 1-2 x players in the competition as you state like it's some sort of indisputable fact.

Or would they? How do you explain that if he's undisputed 1-2 in the comp from the media?

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Would prefer we stop the Daicos is the best or not chat. There is another thread for that.

 

[RonnieRaven]

RonnieRaven - another one for you.

LOLOLOL.

With 666 rule centre clearance is crucial
Serong May not have been top 10 in centre bounce attendances


But he was number 1 for centre clearance in 2025

Maybe he should bleach his hair

 

[ShereKhan]

Dunno, ask the players and umpires.

And can we do coaches votes over the last 3 years, or are we only limited to 2025 to suit your narrative?

You can do what you like. I watched that cut-throat PF and didn't see Naicos get a kick as none of his teammates were wining the fierce contests to feed him the ball. He rarely wins fierce contests. He never wins contests forward of the ball. He never wins aerial battles. He can't outbody anyone and his tackles are often swatted away like flies.

He's an outstanding player, but he's small in stature. He has elite endurance, speed and his decision making is excellent. But I rate players who regularly win fierce contests higher than those who don't. This is crucial in finals when outside ball is a lot harder to come by.

Each to their own.

 

[Fadge]

You can do what you like. I watched that cut-throat PF and didn't see Naicos get a kick as none of his teammates were wining the fierce contests to feed him the ball. He rarely wins fierce contests. He never wins contests forward of the ball. He never wins aerial battles. He can't outbody anyone and his tackles are often swatted away like flies.

He's an outstanding player, but he's small in stature. He has elite endurance, speed and his decision making is excellent. But I rate players who regularly win fierce contests higher than those who don't. This is crucial in finals when outside ball is a lot harder to come by.

Each to their own.

Exactly, each to their own.

I'm content agreeing with the vast majority who interchange between Daicos and Bont as the #1 player in the comp.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yeah, I don't know how Daicos possibly did it.

Walked into a team who'd gone: Runners-Up, PF, Semi-final, 17th, PF, Flag...it's almost like 2021 was the outlier.

Pick the outlier from these years:

2nd
4th
6th

17th

1st
3rd


I'll give you a few minutes of think music.

The 2021 team he walked into had established stars galore...Pendles, Sidey, Grundy, Moore, Elliott, Crisp, DeGoey, Howe, Cameron, Maynard...the list goes on.....

Martin walked into a team that hadn't made finals in 9 x years and had finished 16th (last), 12th, 9th, 16th, 9th, 15th when he arrived with barely any established guns.

1st .

 

[ShereKhan]

I rate Daicos #1, Bont #2 and Serong #3, based on recent/medium term performance.

All media ratings across the board have interchanged between Bont and Daicos as #1 and #2, basically since the end of 2023, Daicos' second year in the system.

You seem to have him somewhere around your top 10.

And I'm the one who has it wrong and needs to open the other eye?

Great, everyone has a different opinion. I'd say at least 80% would rate Butters higher than Serong. You don't, and that's fine....but when you watch them play I don't believe Serong is really that close to the level of Butters. Butters will be offered $2m+ per year end of 2026 - no way Serong would command that sort of coin, and for good reason. But if you rate Serong higher that's fine, I just don't see it.

I think only Collingwood supporters would rank Daicos ahead of the Bont.

 

[Andyy]

I watch the games and believe all of those guys were superior to Daicos in 2025. It's funny how Pie supporters don't believe that's possible.

Bont, Butters, Anderson and Rowell ALL averaged more coaches votes than Daicos AND had a higher player rating.

In addition to those 2 things, Rowell and Bontempelli also averaged more Brownlow votes per game.

Rowell & Butters also won their team's B&F. Bont came second despite missing 5 x games. Anderson came second to Rowell - both of them can't win it.

Out of those 5 x mids Daicos was LAST of the 5 in all of these categories:

Contested Possessions
Groundball Gets
Post Clearance CP
Total Clearances
First Possession
Pressure Acts: Daicos was clearly behind others
Defensive Pressure Acts: Daicos was clearly behind others
1%'ers: Daicos was clearly behind others
Score Launches
Intercept Possessions

Daicos was obviously first in many categories, but majority of things relating to fierce contests and high pressure Daicos was last of the 5.

So I rate winning contests and stuff done in the heat of the battle over outside run and carry - this is where finals and flags are won.

I rate Daicos very highly...top half dozen players in the competition. I rate Bont, Butters, Rowell, Anderson, Cameron ahead of him and maybe a few others on a par.

Maybe open the other eye and realise some players from other teams are absolute superstars of our game.

Personally I'm supportive of you not dropping to your knees for Naicos like the Pies fans do. They just can't hack it.

Hell, I called the bloke an outright jet in another thread but said there were other players I'd take ahead of him (Maybe it was Sam Darcy? Can't remember) and I barely avoided the lynch mob that came for me.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I watched that cut-throat PF and didn't see Naicos get a kick as none of his teammates were wining the fierce contests to feed him the ball.

15 kicks, 12 hb, player rating off the charts

 

[Fadge]

Great, everyone has a different opinion. I'd say at least 80% would rate Butters higher than Serong. You don't, and that's fine....but when you watch them play I don't believe Serong is really that close to the level of Butters. Butters will be offered $2m+ per year end of 2026 - no way Serong would command that sort of coin, and for good reason. But if you rate Serong higher that's fine, I just don't see it.

I think only Collingwood supporters would rank Daicos ahead of the Bont.

Yeah, i base my opinions on actual performance, not want i want my narrative to be, nor how i hope players perform in the future...

 

[bungalow_bill]

Daicos was obviously first in many categories, but majority of things relating to fierce contests and high pressure Daicos was last of the 5.

So I rate winning contests and stuff done in the heat of the battle over outside run and carry - this is where finals and flags are won.

Yep Nick is an excellent h&a player but an average finals player. True champions of the game - Ashcroft,McCluggage,Rowell,Bont et al - excel at both.

 

[Fadge]

15 kicks, 12 hb, player rating off the charts

You're forgetting...

Even though they laud the PLaYeR RaTiNGZ, this was one of the exceptions where the algorithm was broken.

I wonder if they watched the last 5 minutes of the 2023 Grand Final?

 

[ShereKhan]

15 kicks, 12 hb, player rating off the charts

That's right...you as a Pie fan see past very basic assessment. I watched the game and with a Grand Final spot on the line he doesn't get a kick. That's OK...many great players have poor quarters or games, no big deal. But you can't tell me as a Pie fan you weren't thinking in that game "FFS....where on earth is Naicos?" I was thinking that....TBH thought he must've been injured on the bench.

If he was this undisputed best 1-2 player in the competition as Pie fans claim, he would not have finished behind Cameron in the B&F (didn't get a Brownlow vote) and he would've been on-field in the AA team. the fact he wasn't doesn't mean he's not a great player and one of the very best....he's just clearly not undisputed 1-2 as is claimed.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yeah, i base my opinions on actual performance, not want i want my narrative to be, nor how i hope players perform in the future...

In an olympic event for false claims, this post is the gold medallist. In world record time.

 

[Fadge]

Yep Nick is an excellent h&a player but an average finals player. True champions of the game - Ashcroft,McCluggage,Rowell,Bont et al - excel at both.

Hilarious.

Where to start?

 

[bungalow_bill]

You can do what you like. I watched that cut-throat PF and didn't see Naicos get a kick as none of his teammates were wining the fierce contests to feed him the ball. He rarely wins fierce contests. He never wins contests forward of the ball. He never wins aerial battles. He can't outbody anyone and his tackles are often swatted away like flies.

He's an outstanding player, but he's small in stature. He has elite endurance, speed and his decision making is excellent. But I rate players who regularly win fierce contests higher than those who don't. This is crucial in finals when outside ball is a lot harder to come by.

Each to their own.

To be honest the most I noticed Nick's influence in the PF was when he whined to the umps for a free kick and then started clapping lol.

 

[Fadge]

he's just clearly not undisputed 1-2 as is claimed.

Bont and Daicos have interchanged between #1 and #2 in every list compiled since the end of 2023.

Let's again review the lists as they are released this year, and see what we get....

'But the meeeddddyyyaaaaa'....

 

[ShereKhan]

Yeah, i base my opinions on actual performance, not want i want my narrative to be, nor how i hope players perform in the future...

Yeah...I ignore actual performance so how could I possible rate Butters higher than Serong..??

Butters has won the last 3 B&F's at Port, has made 2 x AA (missed in 2025 as he missed 3 x games), and gotten the same number of Brownlow votes as Serong despite playing 2 less games. He's also averaged more coaches votes in 2023 and 2025.

Let me say it again...I rated Daicos 5-6th best player of 2025. If we extend to 2023-25 then his 3 x years body of work and performance would be above Rowell, Jezza and Anderson, but below Bont and Butters.

 

[ShereKhan]

Bont and Daicos have interchanged between #1 and #2 in every list compiled since the end of 2023.

Let's again review the lists as they are released this year, and see what we get....

'But the meeeddddyyyaaaaa'....

And Dustin Martin after finals was rated undisputed #1 player in the game end of 2017, end of 2019 and end of 2020.

Did you agree with that or argue vehemently against that Fadge? I can't quite recall??

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Bont and Daicos have interchanged between #1 and #2 in every list compiled since the end of 2023.

Let's again review the lists as they are released this year, and see what we get....

'But the meeeddddyyyaaaaa'....

Errr...

2023 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #13.

2024 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #7.

2025 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #16.

 

[Fadge]

Butters has won the last 3 B&F's at Port, has made 2 x AA (missed in 2025 as he missed 3 x games),

I didn't realise you couldn't make AA if you missed 3 games? How long has this been a rule?

 

[RUNVS]

Errr...

2023 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #13.

2024 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #7.

2025 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #16.

Not relevant to anything but I would love it if we have 22 Prime Goodes, 22 Prime Pavlich's and 22 Prime Bonts and had some games between the three teams to see which team would win.

 

[Fadge]

And Dustin Martin after finals was rated undisputed #1 player in the game end of 2017, end of 2019 and end of 2020.

Did you agree with that or argue vehemently against that Fadge? I can't quite recall??

I have previously stated that whilst Martin only performed as the best player in the game in 2017, he was considered the best player in the game between 2017 and 2020.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

That's right...you as a Pie fan see past very basic assessment. I watched the game and with a Grand Final spot on the line he doesn't get a kick. That's OK...many great players have poor quarters or games, no big deal. But you can't tell me as a Pie fan you weren't thinking in that game "FFS....where on earth is Naicos?" I was thinking that....TBH thought he must've been injured on the bench.

If he was this undisputed best 1-2 player in the competition as Pie fans claim, he would not have finished behind Cameron in the B&F (didn't get a Brownlow vote) and he would've been on-field in the AA team. the fact he wasn't doesn't mean he's not a great player and one of the very best....he's just clearly not undisputed 1-2 as is claimed.

Nah in that game I was thinking "how good are Brisbane? Definitely loading up on them next week"

Have a squizz at the Brownlow odds to see who's the best

 

[Fadge]

Errr...

2023 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #13.

2024 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #7.

2025 Bont rated number 1 in the AFL, Daicos #16.

This is the same algorithm that had Daicos 25% better than the next best player on the ground in the 2025 Preliminary Final, right?

Can you please now share Supercoach and AFL Fantasy scores?

Because they're equally irrelevant.