Roast Do Crows have a toxic exclusive clique culture?

[CrowsB4hoes]

Whereas the Suns are...

Better than Malthouse era Carlton by a long long way

 

[Redleg Crow]

Better than Malthouse era Carlton by a long long way

Hard to say given next year they will have a new coach and no Ablett

 

[MRB37]

I
On a broader note, what I've had a number of people that are well versed in business/corporate/regulatory issues tell me time and time again is:

"If it's not written down....it didn't happen.

We used to always quote Denzel Washington in Training Day at a place I used to work at. "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

I am particularly glad this thread has been created, where I've highlighted what I think are some very good comments above (probably some additional good comments that I've neglected to highlight). But it's this comment below from Rory Walkerfield that really hits the nail on the head....



....I can tell you from personal experience (and on multiple occasions) that not only does this sorta Ars3 Hattery occur in countless numbers of workplaces, but is thriving healthy and kicking. People in positions of power can (and regularly do) have "favourites" within the business/club/organisation in which they work, and make decisions based on these favourites. I believe the Crows are no different.

On a broader note, what I've had a number of people that are well versed in business/corporate/regulatory issues tell me time and time again is:

"If it's not written down....it didn't happen."

Where you have to be absolutely steadfast and relentless in the use of email, not word of mouth. And keep copies of everything you send an receive. By no means does this guarantee that all bad policies and decisions will be stamped out in all club/businesses/organisations? Not at all. But it sure-as-sh*t goes a long way towards minimising them. Bigtime. People need to learn this sh*t, and never forget it. Ever.
What people fail to understand is that in more than 99% of situations, your bosses and managers are not your friends. This does not mean they're your "enemies", not at all. Or that you can't have the occasional after-work beer (or wine) and shoot the sh*t. But people need to maintain clear boundaries, in regards to friendships in the workplace, and act accordingly. I could write a book on the sh*t I've both experienced personally, and witnessed from a'far (or been told about by colleagues). Unfortunately, most people in subordinate positions just don't get it, and continue to get burned because of either apathy, laziness, or a blasé "she'll be right"/"whatever" attitude. And we Aussies are more guilty of these sorta attitudes than pretty much anyone else.

Perhaps we should write that book together. My comment wasn't based on guess work but a live working knowledge of large corporates.

 

[Heafy83]

Saying we will what?

We have had Wigg on our list for 3 years, that's 3 years without ONE game. Meanwhile he's been performing well in the SANFL over this period. Meanwhile we have had senior players in ordinary form.

So what happens if we cop injuries to our inside mids or our established players hit a form slump, who are you bringing in?

Saying we will extend his current contract?

Also the last 2 years we have had a relatively fit list, especially when it comes to our mids. The best players were playing..... full stop!

If we have sufficient injuries, in the right areas, I dare say Wigg is 1st or 2nd one to be called up.

 

[Heafy83]

Yeah it was all a coincidence

Well since then we have had a relatively injury free midfield. How many games has he played?

 

[Crow Envy]

Saying we will extend his current contract?

Also the last 2 years we have had a relatively fit list, especially when it comes to our mids. The best players were playing..... full stop!

If we have sufficient injuries, in the right areas, I dare say Wigg is 1st or 2nd one to be called up.

We extended his contract already, last year and we still haven't given him a game.

So you are ok with Wiggs first game being a final?

 

[Crow Envy]

Well since then we have had a relatively injury free midfield. How many games has he played?

Since Campo took over and then Pyke only a couple, but under Walsh?

 

[Vhaluus]

Well since then we have had a relatively injury free midfield. How many games has he played?

Injury free midfield?

Not sure I agree with this assessment.

 

[Crowked]

If Thommo gets another game, I'd be looking for a trade if I were Menzel or Wigg.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Look, I find some of this pretty outlandish to be honest.

I mean, the suggestion is that players are deliberately damaging their on field prospects so as to ignore players that they don't like? Players that were often wide open on their own in the 50?

I don't recall seeing examples of that occurring, and I feel sure that wide open players who were missed as options would have been highlighted on telecasts. Could someone provide me a link to examples perhaps?

 

[DD#23]

I mean absolutely no personal offence, but I have to call bullsh*t here.

When supporters and people in the media put questions to the club....particularly regarding list management/team selection....the response is usually one of two things:

1. Silence
2. "We don't discuss those sort of things publicly."

Now if some idiot were to start asking things like "What are the exact details of the contract negotiations with Player-X?", or "How much is Player-Y being paid?", then the person asking those sorts of questions needs to put their head in the toilet and flush. But questions regarding list management and team selection are entirely fair and legitimate. So when the club hierarchy continually refuses to reply openly to those sorts of queries, then the supporter base has every right to speculate. Some people don't like it? Then the club needs to answer the questions put to them, or people are going to continue to raise questions and speculate....repeatedly.

this is just an internet forum, not a press conference. Who here is a club representative we can put the question to? Some posters (very few) have connections to the club, but even then most of them just seem to receive leaks, they're not in the inner sanctum.

the average punter on this board can offer nothing of any legitimacy to this discussion - apart from maybe "did anyone notice that only 2 players hi-fived player X after he kicked a goal on the weekend?" - which is not particularly useful.

there's not a lot of point in passing the conspiracy theory around in circles, unless you think Rucci might pick it up and put it to Pyke sometime.

 

[Heafy83]

Have a gander....


https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...e-clique-culture.1170514/page-3#post-51270674

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...e-clique-culture.1170514/page-4#post-51287006

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...e-clique-culture.1170514/page-4#post-51294546

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...e-clique-culture.1170514/page-4#post-51295071

Don't want to be a pain, but its a bit hard to follow posting like that. What are you trying to say?

 

[jirkago]

In principal, I agree with your comments, and quite strongly. But in reality (at the Crows), it's the exact opposite. I've done my best to briefly explain why here -





This sort of attitude is widely pervasive in countless clubs/businesses/organisations....not just in SA or in Australia, but around the world. People can argue endlessly as to the causes of these problems at the Crows - favoritism, or any other list of reasons, but something is definitely amiss. In my opinion, there are two major issues at the Crows -

1. The coaching panel (*and/or members of senior management*) have "favourites", and make their decisions accordingly. I've seen this sorta sh*t in the workplace entirely too many times to be convinced otherwise. At the Crows? The problem is off-field, more so than out on the paddock.
   
2. The coaching panel and list management department are loathe to admit that, on occasion, they have slightly erred (read: monumentally f*cked up) in regards to the talent spotting, recruitment (and then weekly selection) of certain players. In regards to talent spotting and recruitment, all clubs make errors of judgement from time to time - this is not unique to the Crows, or any club/business/organisation for that matter. But what makes the Crows "semi unique" is that the management would rather drink warm stale beer mixed with cigarette butts than admit they made a mistake, and need to move a player on. Just look at the Kris-Massie-on-Buddy-Franklin debacle, and the previous retention of VB as Captain as two prime examples.

I think there may be a mixture of both the above factors, but (I believe) issue 2 was far, far, far the bigger problem in years past, more so than now. But however you look at it, the Crows have some serious issues in regards to the title of this thread, in one form or another.

I think there r players like Wigg at every club that for one reason or another dont get a fair go. Its unfortunate but there must be something holding them back.

On SM-G930F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[beartoo]

Look, I find some of this pretty outlandish to be honest.

I mean, the suggestion is that players are deliberately damaging their on field prospects so as to ignore players that they don't like? Players that were often wide open on their own in the 50?

I don't recall seeing examples of that occurring, and I feel sure that wide open players who were missed as options would have been highlighted on telecasts. Could someone provide me a link to examples perhaps?

I find it difficult to believe this exists at the club, but have to say that I've seen Menzel open and screaming for the ball at both levels a number of times and being ignored. Sorry, I have no footage.
Haven't noticed that with Wigg in the twos or with any other player.

 

[King Elvis]

He was getting a game due to injuries. Sloane, Douglas, B Crouch etc all had injuries during that time.

It just happened to line up that after Walsh passed these injured players were made available again.

He was getting games because he deserved them - Walsh raved about him, and he was being talked about across the league...

Then we rested him for six months.

 

[Geoffa32]

I find it difficult to believe this exists at the club, but have to say that I've seen Menzel open and screaming for the ball at both levels a number of times and being ignored. Sorry, I have no footage.
Haven't noticed that with Wigg in the twos or with any other player.

I tend to think Menzel is a bit of a "coaster" all the talent in the world but happy to coast through.

This may rub a few guys who have a strong work ethic the wrong way.


In ten years time Menz will be the guy who "could have made it had things gone the right way" after dominating Amateur footy.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[ftmch]

In particular, List Management and Team Selection. At the Crows, these two issues stand out like sunburnt dogs' balls at a Royal cat show.

That's friggin awesome

 

[azza77]

Damning. Go back further to the treatment of Grigg, CEY, Lyons.

Which coach is mates with all the senior players?

I'm telling you Campo is a cancer at this club.

Of course it seems like this culture will never end. How the hell did VB play so many games for us? Now he is becoming a coach. Thommo is a notorious boys clubber and will become a coach also. Our culture is rooted.

It would suck to be a young player here if you're not in the cool group.

This is the thing that stood out as well. We've had issues with this in the past in terms of Lyons, CEY and Grigg.

Never really given a proper shot at AFL to prove if their capable, and even if we did we then traded them!

Understandable if it's more so someone like ROB who is behind Sauce, and can't surprass Jenkins in a resting ruck role. That's all good and well, but someone like Wigg who can't even get a gig? And then we go ahead and play Thommo instead of Poholke is a pretty crummy decision on the club's behalf. Not even just 1 single game to give him a taste like we did with Gooch. Getting closer to finals now there is no way I can see Poholke getting a game as we look to keep the same group of players firing as we approach September. And then we have Doedeee...

I'm also stoked to see other's picked up on the Menzel workrate on game day. The amount of times that poor kid had worked his own arse off and created practically a paddock of space to lead into, only for us to bomb high and long to an Eddie Betts 3v1 was ridiculous. Couldn't care less if that person was Menzel, Wayne Carey or Jarrhan ****ing Jacky...... if a player is in that much go damn space, you give them the god damn ball.

 

[azza77]

If there is, I bet Dangerfield started it...

That wouldnt surprise me in the slightest given his nature, but I feel (if true) it's started higher up with certain coaches playing favourites.

99.9% of the board are in no position to speculate, don't think this needs a thread.

there are signs here and there that make me feel like I couldn't rule it out entirely, but at the same time I feel like there's no reason for a disgruntled Lyons or Grigg for example to not have spoken out about it - but like I suggested "that's pretty ****in' thin Riggs"

A bit of discussion doesn't hurt in all honesty. Interesting to see who has heard what little tid bits along the way and if anyone has heard the same story from different sources.

 

[azza77]

Other posters are correct that this happens at all clubs, from kids teams up to multi-million dollar world famous teams. Clubs with good culture will find better ways to manage it however.

I must also agree with someone else who mentioned the boogeyman - Campo. I hear his name come up to often in conversations with players and this stretches back probably 3 or 4 years. Mostly his name comes up in a negative way.

This was more so the train of thought I was going along when I (unintentionally) started this discussion topic.

I can understand there would be differences between certain playing groups, some that are more liked than others, and people are always going to look after their mates aren't they? While it's an issue, yes it does happen everywhere and there's only so much that can be done.

But the fact it could possibly be stemming from our coaching department?? That's unacceptable imo. Coaches are there to teach and to guide the players, and make the tough calls when it comes to the ultimate goal, winning games of football. They're not there to play favourite and pick and choose as if they're selecting a side to play Golden Child in year 3 PE class....

 

[azza77]

I suspect there's been a bit of mayo thrown on the OP (whether by OP or by Wigg's family).

Footy at that level is just too bloody hard/quick to make decisions as to disposal based on who your mates are. You're trained to the enth degree to take the best option according to the gameplan and do so as a reflex. Any subconscious idea that player x is more of your mate than player y would play such a minute role in actions it's not worth substantially considering.

However I find it entirely conceivable though in an organisation such as the AFC that there would get a bit of an insiders/outsiders feel about it. Particularly where the nature of the organisation is set up with tiers of "first 22 players", "second 22 players" etc.

Just told it as I heard it mate. I'm not one, or here to create drama and lies for the sake of it. My reaction to their comments may have been over the top? But I was a little bit pissed by it all at the start. Like I did say, he mentioned "Wigg and a few of the other younger fellas were finding it difficult with all this happening" and by that he meant how Thommo and "other senior players" didnt like passing to Wigg and would rather "look for their mates"

Make of it what you will really, it doesn't phase me at all. That's all he really said throughout the game. Wasn't sitting there whinging and complaining about the club/players the whole time. Spent the rest of the half talking about other up coming prospects and the even-ness of the competition this year.

 

[azza77]

Yeah i feel like this is true but has been overblown a lot, look back to when mcleod and edwards played together. They passed the ball to each other no worries, pretty sure in mcleods episode of open mic he said its all instinct and it doesnt matter if you like the bloke or not because you dont have time to think about it during a game.

ALSO PLEASE NOTE: What I said about Wigg and what I said about Menzel were 2 completely different issues.

The issue with Wigg was more so senior players playing favourites in training and at SANFL level. Then there's also the coaches and what input they have...

The Menzel discussion was more so what I just picked up on myself on game day, and it's there for all to see. No one seemed to want to pass to him, despite his good work off the ball and him being in plenty of space. Why that was/is the case I'm not so sure, I'm not sitting here accusing players of anything. My issue, as it has been for a long time now, is more so with Campo. Someone then also chipped in saying Menzel had also mentioned the topic of "favouritism" amongst senior players.

 

[DD#23]

A bit of discussion doesn't hurt in all honesty. Interesting to see who has heard what little tid bits along the way and if anyone has heard the same story from different sources.

by all means, I'd love to hear more, I'm just not sure there are enough people with their fingers on the pulse to justify a whole thread.

I prefer the dribs and drabs to come through more organically in other threads like your original comment, a thread like this just fuels speculation and conspiracy theories because most have nothing genuine to add.

 

[azza77]

by all means, I'd love to hear more, I'm just not sure there are enough people with their fingers on the pulse to justify a whole thread.

I prefer the dribs and drabs to come through more organically in other threads like your original comment, a thread like this just fuels speculation and conspiracy theories because most have nothing genuine to add.

Ahh I see what you were getting at, and very fair point too.