Do we have the worst under 25 in the Comp?

[Ugene41]

You call it a potshot, I call it reality. The thread is valid. I look at Hawthorn and I see youth with talent. I look at Collingwood and I do not, other than Naicos and Hill.

It's about quality not quantity. I'd take our under 25 list any day with Naicos over Hawthorns under 25 list without Naicos.

 

[DopeMaster]

Daicos and Hill - future GOAT and Norm Smith winners.

McReery, Harrison, McInnes, Richard’s, Allan, Parker, Kreuger et al all have a good chance of making it, Id say McReery already has.

It’s not the best under 25 list given our propensity to finish high, but the top two with a decent
Swathe below make it far from the worst IMO. Razor sharp pointy end.

 

[DopeMaster]

To add to the above, I think most clubs would trade 3-4 of their promising under 25 players for one Daicos, and we wouldn't accept the trade, so he counts for at least 5 promising up and comers.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I think it's way too easy to be down on our youth when the seniors look like shit, play like shit and somehow the kids can't get a game ahead of them.

The reality is that our kids haven't really been given a proper opportunity to really show what they're made of because we weren't giving them much game time while we were good enough to carry one or two of them during our stronger period.

Personally, I still reckon:

• Beau (I put Beau here because I think he still has scope to get better)
• Richards
• Parker
• TJ
• Smit
• Steene
• Dean
• Kreuger
• Reef

Will all be solid to really good players if given the appropriate development and opportunity to go alongside the known quantities of Nick, Bobby and Q

Then you have McGuane coming along who will be more of a Nick known quantity as well and there's plenty there to be optimistic about.

All of the above ignores the fact that we're not going to have an entire team comprised of sub 25 year old players lol. Today's 25-28 players become tomorrow's 30 plus vets and you throw in some free agents/trades etc and there's shouldn't be an issue long term

Is it the best crop of Under 25s going around? Probably not. But then I don't really know enough about other clubs sub 25 players.

My guess is that younger sides like Hawthorn we're already seeing their best Under 25 players because they don't have any old ones.

So there's some layers of complexity to this discussion that goes beyond the rather simplistic:

"We suck right now and our kids can't get a game so they must suck too"

Sometimes coaches just don't get it right and misjudge kids too. Look no further than Bucks with Josh/Callum Brown or Bolton who strangely refused to play Harry McKay

10

Harry Mckay

Age

28

Ht

200cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

2.4

2star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.4

5star

D

6.6

1star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

2star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.0

5star

.

 

[Gilbert_Grape]

It’s not the best under 25 list given our propensity to finish high, but the top two with a decent
Swathe below make it far from the worst IMO. Razor sharp pointy end.

Exactly.
Complaining about lack of youth while winning a flag & playing prelims seems like complaining about high taxes because you earn a lot - the system is designed to equalise,

Below is 2024 player ratings for players under 25 (minimum 5 games).

GC, Adel and Freo have high quantity (sum of player ratings ) and quality (average rating).

We're near the bottom for total (no surprise). But arguably player average (quality) is a better measure than the sum, otherwise you're ranking 4 below average players higher than 1 Daicos. You can replace average players easily so the top end is more important.
Daicos + Hill, Mcreery, IQ is ok just due to Daicos (Hill and IQ hopefully have more upside than their 2024 ratings).

The good news is Bris and Carl rank worse . (After Walsh it is Hollands, Kemp Cottrell, Cowan...).

Bris highest are Wilmot, Lohmann, Morris (but they'll get much more upside from Aschroft 2x)

Looks pretty grim for Ess and StK - low on total and average (quality). Ess highest ratings are their midyear picks & trade - Durham, Martin, Caldwell (top end not looking great with Tsatsas, Cox, Hobbs, Z.Reid...)

WC and Rich still have to find quality...(even allowing for Reid)

Freo & GC rank high on average ratings (as does Sydney - great top end due to academy & F/S)

I'm just thankful we banked a flag.

 

[DopeMaster]

Exactly.
Complaining about lack of youth while winning a flag & playing prelims seems like complaining about high taxes because you earn a lot - the system is designed to equalise,

Below is 2024 player ratings for players under 25 (minimum 5 games).

GC, Adel and Freo have high quantity (sum of player ratings ) and quality (average rating).

We're near the bottom for total (no surprise). But arguably player average (quality) is a better measure than the sum, otherwise you're ranking 4 below average players higher than 1 Daicos. You can replace average players easily so the top end is more important.
Daicos + Hill, Mcreery, IQ is ok just due to Daicos (Hill and IQ hopefully have more upside than their 2024 ratings).

The good news is Bris and Carl rank worse . (After Walsh it is Hollands, Kemp Cottrell, Cowan...).

Bris highest are Wilmot, Lohmann, Morris (but they'll get much more upside from Aschroft 2x)

Looks pretty grim for Ess and StK - low on total and average (quality). Ess highest ratings are their midyear picks & trade - Durham, Martin, Caldwell (top end not looking great with Tsatsas, Cox, Hobbs, Z.Reid...)

WC and Rich still have to find quality...(even allowing for Reid)

Freo & GC rank high on average ratings (as does Sydney - great top end due to academy & F/S)

Haw youth perhaps not as great as many seem to be thinking (maybe some recency bias).

I'm just thankful we banked a flag.

View attachment 2063519

Excellent analysis. Kudos for bringing this to the table.

Agree with the methodology, clearly things are not as grim as some would make out.

Hopefully McGuane continues to impress and further adds to our pointy end. Middling / role players much easier to add.

 

[No SPIN]

The VFL won their first game in 3 months. They suck. Those players you just mentioned aren’t playing seniors. If and when they are, and doing that consistently with form, then you can laud the players and criticise the fans justifiably.

Sorry - but if the fans can unjustifiably write off players after a poor game - then equally others can be excited after a great performance.

 

[No SPIN]

You call it a potshot, I call it reality. The thread is valid. I look at Hawthorn and I see youth with talent. I look at Collingwood and I do not, other than Naicos and Hill.

When you’ve spent 4 years at the bottom of course you have better youth.

 

[lenny20]

Reckon we might have Carlton's U25s covered

 

[Carringbush2010]

Interesting conversation.

What's stood out is our poor trading and drafting, pretty hard to deny.

Yet.

We've just won a flag on the back of bringing in certain pieces (TM for example), coupled with our experienced stars like Pendles and Sides for example.

And the development of players like IQ and Rambeau for example.

The reason we've been contending when we've been contending is down to development of game and players.

This is an excellent example of why the competition is so close, as bad as we've been in trading and drafting, we've still managed to snag a flag in that, amid many finals and prelims in that. Due to the development of our stock.

Now imagine IF this club could've got it's act together in drafting and trading? We'd have at least another flag, and that's not even mentioning that phuqd up succession debacle which is arguably at least another flag in itself.

The frustrations and love of this club at the same time knows no bounds.

 

[OniAu]

All ive ever wished we do better is have development back ups in youth for FF/CHF , FB/CHB feel we havent done that as well. Espeically with Checkers over the years players taller than required and Howe down back the same thing

I look at Lions with that young Forward, where is our version of that coming through ?

 

[Carlthetruth]

No but best list of over 30's so it balances out.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Carlton easily has the worst list under 25. Not one player names in the top 40 24 and under list.

 

[Mollythedolly]

Carlton easily has the worst list under 25. Not one player names in the top 40 24 and under list.

They do have a few handy U25’s in their squad. Walsh for example. Could add Cerra, Holland x2, even Kemp and Cottrell at a stretch. They all just had interrupted years.

 

[Kappa]

Carlton easily has the worst list under 25. Not one player names in the top 40 24 and under list.

Sam Walsh?

 

[Mollythedolly]

Sam Walsh?

Nick Daicos. It’s a silly game.

 

[Kappa]

Nick Daicos. It’s a silly game.

It’s… not a game. I was replying to his post…

 

[SchuPie]

No - but I would like us to identifying and bringing in top young talent

• KPP
• mids
• hbf

I also think we need to value 1st w a little more regard

 

[South of the Yarra]

Sam Walsh?

Apologies it was an Under 24 list. He was too old.

 

[Markfs]

There seems to be a theory that if you can name another club with worse youngsters then the Pies are in a good place.....

It seems that we arent the worst. Maybe we should start a thread arguing that we have the best list under 25....

 

[Mollythedolly]

There seems to be a theory that if you can name another club with worse youngsters then the Pies are in a good place.....

It seems that we arent the worst. Maybe we should start a thread arguing that we have the best list under 25....

It's a pretty pointless discussion given how quickly these things can turn. You only need to look at Hawthorn's transition over the last few years as evidence of that. Even with arguably among the best groups of U25 players in the league, North and the Suns still aren't playing finals, only Hawthorn and GWS seem to be ahead of the ball on that front.

 

[VinnieB]

Daicos and Hill - future GOAT and Norm Smith winners.

McReery, Harrison, McInnes, Richard’s, Allan, Parker, Kreuger et al all have a good chance of making it, Id say McReery already has.

It’s not the best under 25 list given our propensity to finish high, but the top two with a decent
Swathe below make it far from the worst IMO. Razor sharp pointy end.

Everyone seems to forget Quaynor and Josh Daicos.

 

[Jen2310]

Everyone seems to forget Quaynor and Josh Daicos.

JD is already 25

 

[Granit1962]

It doesn’t matter if we are technically under 25 or around that mark. They still have potentially 5 to 8 years left. In the modern game that is a long time.

The problem I think is lack of balance. Also having some stars to surround around the daicous boys.

Beau, Hill, Naicous, Jaicous, Allan, IQ, Parker: 5 locks in out best 22 and 2 looking likely to move there next year. Then there is Shultz and Lipinski just above that age group. All looking they have at least 5+ years of good service. That is possibly 9 best 22 players locked in for the next 5 plus years, 10 if you include Richards. It is lacking star back line power. A power forward would also be nice.

The Maybes:
Key Backs: Eyer, Dean
HBF: TJ,
Med mids: HH, DM, Macrae, Long, Bytel, Sullivan (not in age group but a newbie)
Power Mid/Utility: Reef
Small fwd: Richards
Rucks: Steene/Smitt/Hopefully Condom (and he exceeds expectations)

We need to clear out a lot of mids. Eyer is to much of a long shot, I would try to upgrade. Hopefully we can hang on to Richards. What a crappy list of “Maybes”, both on potential and position.

Overall however, not to bad - what you would expect for a team in contention. However, in terms of the premership clock, we are close to 11.55. Big need for another star power in the middle (praying for Allan and Beau) and quality flanks. Also pray for Dean to come on. Dean’s trajectory was reasonable. I expect he will make his way into the best 22 and exceed Frampton’s output.

Do we have time to reload while we have DG, Moore, McStay, Maynard, along with Daicos and our younger crew, and bring our premership clock back to 9.00? Does Houston now extend our premership clock?

If we have a chance to nab 3 or 4 in this draft, McGuane and one more next year and bring in some free agents.

As this is a deep draft, if we have upped our scouting game, if we can get back into the draft, then this is year to load up, with 3 or 4 draftees. What we need is 5 or 6 A graders to grow with Daicous, who we can build a team around.

 

[35Daicos]

It doesn’t matter if we are technically under 25 or around that mark. They still have potentially 5 to 8 years left. In the modern game that is a long time.

The problem I think is lack of balance. Also having some stars to surround around the daicous boys.

Beau, Hill, Naicous, Jaicous, Allan, IQ, Parker: 5 locks in out best 22 and 2 looking likely to move there next year. Then there is Shultz and Lipinski just above that age group. All looking they have at least 5+ years of good service. That is possibly 9 best 22 players locked in for the next 5 plus years, 10 if you include Richards. It is lacking star back line power. A power forward would also be nice.

The Maybes:
Key Backs: Eyer, Dean
HBF: TJ,
Med mids: HH, DM, Macrae, Long, Bytel, Sullivan (not in age group but a newbie)
Power Mid/Utility: Reef
Small fwd: Richards
Rucks: Steene/Smitt/Hopefully Condom (and he exceeds expectations)

We need to clear out a lot of mids. Eyer is to much of a long shot, I would try to upgrade. Hopefully we can hang on to Richards. What a crappy list of “Maybes”, both on potential and position.

Overall however, not to bad - what you would expect for a team in contention. However, in terms of the premership clock, we are close to 11.55. Big need for another star power in the middle (praying for Allan and Beau) and quality flanks. Also pray for Dean to come on. Dean’s trajectory was reasonable. I expect he will make his way into the best 22 and exceed Frampton’s output.

Do we have time to reload while we have DG, Moore, McStay, Maynard, along with Daicos and our younger crew, and bring our premership clock back to 9.00? Does Houston now extend our premership clock?

If we have a chance to nab 3 or 4 in this draft, McGuane and one more next year and bring in some free agents.

As this is a deep draft, if we have upped our scouting game, if we can get back into the draft, then this is year to load up, with 3 or 4 draftees. What we need is 5 or 6 A graders to grow with Daicous, who we can build a team around.

Condon, that should be!