Opinion Do we REALLY want Jack Steven from St. Kilda?

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Pure_Ownage

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No matter how we go.. if the bold is not favorable we will not have a choice.. cant see bringing big dollar players if 3 or 4 of our big dollar guys stay... Harry and GA would have to move on if we bring in guys like Steven. We must have a projected hole of some sort to make an offer to Kelly ..its just a matter of how much..
Scooter and Smith are going and maybe Hendo. We dont need to move on anyone to fit Steven in.
 

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Turbocat

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Scooter and Smith are going and maybe Hendo. We dont need to move on anyone to fit Steven in.
well thats three guys on good dollars ... what is Harry on ... an ablett type contract? I dont think they will be overly perturbed about the dollar being paid to best22 players..or in fact to player they see will be best 22 soon.. the question is if we get tight... do we have to have our spare tyre guys mainly as young players..


I wonder if Buzza ends up at Stk .. they will have a lack of bigger bodies if they trade out Carlise and Bruce.. Even having both Kings... of course he could find a chance at GC as well..

But If im a reading this right... our approach next year if we trade out Kelly is to have an onball briggade of Selwood , Danger , Higgins , Steven ... really is a grey midfield..
 
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Wojcinski

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I'll say it again, I'd only want Steven for free or very cheap. I really hope the lists managers see this too, we can't be spending valuable resources for more cooked players. Hamish McIntosh, Marcus Drum, Zac Smith are good examples of overpaying for cooked players that I really wish we'd stop doing. Jury is still out on some of the other blokes.
 

Mad_Catter

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I'll say it again, I'd only want Steven for free or very cheap. I really hope the lists managers see this too, we can't be spending valuable resources for more cooked players. Hamish McIntosh, Marcus Drum, Zac Smith are good examples of overpaying for cooked players that I really wish we'd stop doing. Jury is still out on some of the other blokes.
Those players you mentioned were / are failures and haven't worked out. But what's your definition of overpaying? McIntosh was traded for pick 38, Drum for pick 49 and Smith for picks 49 and 53. All players are key position and were recruited to fill a need. The club has actively tried to address the ruck issue in particular. Good rucks are hard to find and McIntosh and Smith had proven to be AFL standard rucks, albeit with injury concerns.

They might not have worked out but we hardly gave up anything substantial to get them. It's not like we traded first round picks. It was worth the risk at the time. You win some, you lose some and we have certainly had many wins over the years.

I'm not massively into Steven either, but if the trade only requires something similar to the picks traded for the players you mentioned, then it's certainly worth exploring.
 

Mad_Catter

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Who says hendo is going anywhere? With taylor not far from retirement he is the logical substitute.

And scooter? Maybe they offer him a reduced pay deal.
Yeah I agree, Hendo still has something to offer this team for a couple of years in the likely event that Harry pulls the pin. His demise has been greatly exaggerated IMO.
 

Spazz Cat

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Those players you mentioned were / are failures and haven't worked out. But what's your definition of overpaying? McIntosh was traded for pick 38, Drum for pick 49 and Smith for picks 49 and 53. All players are key position and were recruited to fill a need. The club has actively tried to address the ruck issue in particular. Good rucks are hard to find and McIntosh and Smith had proven to be AFL standard rucks, albeit with injury concerns.

They might not have worked out but we hardly gave up anything substantial to get them. It's not like we traded first round picks. It was worth the risk at the time. You win some, you lose some and we have certainly had many wins over the years.

I'm not massively into Steven either, but if the trade only requires something similar to the picks traded for the players you mentioned, then it's certainly worth exploring.
Gryan Miers was 57, SavRat was 43, Constable was 36, Stewart was 40.
We shouldn't be throwing away picks with Wells at the helm. He finds a mid or late gem nearly once a year.
 

Mad_Catter

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Gryan Miers was 57, SavRat was 43, Constable was 36, Stewart was 40.
We shouldn't be throwing away picks with Wells at the helm. He finds a mid or late gem nearly once a year.
Very true. But those guys we went after were worth the punt at the time. All were identified as players that could fill a genuine a need and improve the side. I thought HMac, although a risky move, was the right call at the time. Good rucks are hard to find and he could have been the difference in 2013. He failed through injury but I thought it was the right call. The Hawks have taken a massive punt on injured players from other clubs over the years. Burgoyne, O'Meara, Scully etc.

You won't win them all but sometimes you just have to take the chance.
 

Turbocat

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Those players you mentioned were / are failures and haven't worked out. But what's your definition of overpaying? McIntosh was traded for pick 38, Drum for pick 49 and Smith for picks 49 and 53. All players are key position and were recruited to fill a need. The club has actively tried to address the ruck issue in particular. Good rucks are hard to find and McIntosh and Smith had proven to be AFL standard rucks, albeit with injury concerns.

They might not have worked out but we hardly gave up anything substantial to get them. It's not like we traded first round picks. It was worth the risk at the time. You win some, you lose some and we have certainly had many wins over the years.

I'm not massively into Steven either, but if the trade only requires something similar to the picks traded for the players you mentioned, then it's certainly worth exploring.
There is a cost for a known value... we know what can do it at the level... If you give wells enough picks sure he will get a player... but we have limited numbers, every player taken costs 100,000+ just being on the list ..and have a look at our VFL one might also question Fort and Buzza and Kennerly etc etc.
 

Spazz Cat

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Very true. But those guys we went after were worth the punt at the time. All were identified as players that could fill a genuine a need and improve the side. I thought HMac, although a risky move, was the right call at the time. Good rucks are hard to find and he could have been the difference in 2013. He failed through injury but I thought it was the right call. The Hawks have taken a massive punt on injured players from other clubs over the years. Burgoyne, O'Meara, Scully etc.

You won't win them all but sometimes you just have to take the chance.
I don't think you can compare any of those 3 Hawks players with any of our risks.
Burgoyne was one of the very best in the league at Port, O'Meara was once the best young player in the game, I thought Scully was bloody fantastic that year up until he did his ankle.
I didn't think Hmac was worth the risk for that pick. Such a small percentage of that working.
Same as Mitch Clark. Just throwing away decent picks on a 5% chance.
Did think Smith and Stanley were worth it though. Can't really complain.
 

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Spazz Cat

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There is a cost for a known value... we know what can do it at the level... If you give wells enough picks sure he will get a player... but we have limited numbers, every player taken costs 100,000+ just being on the list ..and have a look at our VFL one might also question Fort and Buzza and Kennerly etc etc.
You have to spend that 100 Grand though. Can't just stick it in the bank or buy something else.
 

Turbocat

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You have to spend that 100 Grand though. Can't just stick it in the bank or buy something else.
Yes sure there is set amount all players brought in cost..but the idea is for them to repay it with afl games.. ..lets just look at late picks I agree he can find value ..just saying we have to be aware that its a bit scattergun.. If I say success is 50 games .. below id say we striking at about 26%.. with picks 40 and later not counting Rookie ( 7 / 26) thats with Sav and Miers included early

2010
Rookie​
2​
40​
7​
Rookie​
3​
56​
4​
Rookie​
4​
71​
Ryan Bathie​
0​
2011
National​
2​
48​
108​
National​
3​
66​
29​
National​
4​
78​
8​
National​
5​
86​
80​
2012
National​
4​
77​
5​
National​
5​
92​
11​
2013
National​
3​
41​
90​
National​
3​
54​
23​
National​
4​
63​
5​
2014
National​
3​
47​
39​
National​
3​
55​
Dean Gore​
0​
National​
4​
59​
15​
2015

RoundPickPlayerCurrent TeamGames Since
Drafted *
National​
4​
59​
Ryan Gardner​
0​
National​
5​
66​
62​
National​
6​
69​
9​
National​
7​
70​
Matthew Hayball​
0​
2016
National​
2​
40​
65​
National​
3​
43​
25​
National​
4​
60​
9​
National​
4​
68​
Timm House​
0​
National​
4​
69​
5​

2017
National​
2​
36​
7​
National​
4​
57​
22​

2018
National​
3​
48​
Ben Jarvis​
0​
National​
3​
50​
Jacob Kennerley​
0​
National​
4​
65​
3​
National​
4​
68​
Jake Tarca​
0​
 

Spazz Cat

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Yes sure there is set amount all players brought in cost..but the idea is for them to repay it with afl games.. ..lets just look at late picks I agree he can find value ..just saying we have to be aware that its a bit scattergun.. If I say success is 50 games .. below id say we striking at about 26%.. with picks 40 and later not counting Rookie ( 7 / 26) thats with Sav and Miers included early

2010
Rookie​
2​
40​
7​
Rookie​
3​
56​
4​
Rookie​
4​
71​
Ryan Bathie​
0​
2011
National​
2​
48​
108​
National​
3​
66​
29​
National​
4​
78​
8​
National​
5​
86​
80​
2012
National​
4​
77​
5​
National​
5​
92​
11​
2013
National​
3​
41​
90​
National​
3​
54​
23​
National​
4​
63​
5​
2014
National​
3​
47​
39​
National​
3​
55​
Dean Gore​
0​
National​
4​
59​
15​
2015

RoundPickPlayerCurrent TeamGames Since
Drafted *
National​
4​
59​
Ryan Gardner​
0​
National​
5​
66​
62​
National​
6​
69​
9​
National​
7​
70​
Matthew Hayball​
0​
2016
National​
2​
40​
65​
National​
3​
43​
25​
National​
4​
60​
9​
National​
4​
68​
Timm House​
0​
National​
4​
69​
5​

2017
National​
2​
36​
7​
National​
4​
57​
22​

2018
National​
3​
48​
Ben Jarvis​
0​
National​
3​
50​
Jacob Kennerley​
0​
National​
4​
65​
3​
National​
4​
68​
Jake Tarca​
0​
That ain't bad though considering only 31% of players overall play 50 senior games.
Also clubs must take 3 players from the draft every year.
So even if you get ones that don't make it but aren't injury prone it actually saves the club money on having to pay VFL top ups, cause it's mandatory to draft 3.
 

Turbocat

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That ain't bad though considering only 31% of players overall play 50 senior games.
Also clubs must take 3 players from the draft every year.
So even if you get ones that don't make it but aren't injury prone it actually saves the club money on having to pay VFL top ups, cause it's mandatory to draft 3.
Let me be clear I like drafting in kids.. and grooming the and developing thru... but I can understand why when the need occurs ..or development fails we look at alts. We have probably been too slanted towards trade ins.. and even though our rate of success has been reasonable ..its been more on a certain type . We have failed in the ruck role..obviously now.
 

CatRiot

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I'd think about him if:
  • Scooter and GAJ both retire, and
  • Duncan is cooked for 2020, and
  • We trade out TK.
That will invariably open the door for Cunico, Fogarty, Steven, Constable, Parsons, Cockatoo as well. Not sure Brownless or Kennerly will be ready next season either. Not so sure about Simpson.

Wouldn't pay more than our late 2nd rounder, and it may need a 4th round pick back.
 

Strange Cat

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There’s really no point. Why bother just to get a few years out a player in a team going nowhere. Just draft a youngster.
This

Much rather just use all of our picks to draft kids with hopefully a new coaching team in place and do a proper rebuild

Otherwise it’s just continuing this cycle of madness
 

Cataholic

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Let me be clear I like drafting in kids.. and grooming the and developing thru... but I can understand why when the need occurs ..or development fails we look at alts. We have probably been too slanted towards trade ins.. and even though our rate of success has been reasonable ..its been more on a certain type . We have failed in the ruck role..obviously now.
Yep, I want a kid instead.

This path has been well trodden, and I want us to lift our eyes and look longer term for a change.
 

Turbocat

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Yep, I want a kid instead.

This path has been well trodden, and I want us to lift our eyes and look longer term for a change.
Does anyone think Higgins or Steven would have made a difference last night .... add a kid and unfortuetly we are probably lookingat a Kennerley ..who adds little unless we get very lucky...
 

Cataholic

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Does anyone think Higgins or Steven would have made a difference last night .... add a kid and unfortuetly we are probably lookingat a Kennerley ..who adds little unless we get very lucky...
Last night was beyond the capability of any individual.

As much as we might suffer in the short term, the investment in youth will be far better for us in the long run I reckon.
 

Turbocat

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Last night was beyond the capability of any individual.

As much as we might suffer in the short term, the investment in youth will be far better for us in the long run I reckon.
I reckon the pick we use could give us a handy player if we are clever enough to pick the right player... 20/20 rear vision will prove the point ...
For eg..if we trade our R2 ..which might be P32 ... most of the rucks in the draft could be available to be taken by that pick
 
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