Do we still want to finish bottom???

Mr Magic

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It is not just about the fans.

You have to be fair dinkum with the players. Deledio, Martin and Cotch to name a few will want to challenge for premierships.

Unless we get a few more quality draft picks it ant going to happen so you won't be able to sell the fairytale to keep our stars on board.

Tigers have little choice. They must go youth for the next 2-3 years otherwise live in the wolderness for another decade if you love it that much!!

The Tigers need to do the right thing by the players, club and supporters and go youth and development. Just add 2 years to Hardwicks contract so he has incentive to stick to the program we all know is good for the club and team!!!
 

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El Tigre

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It is not just about the fans.

The Tigers need to do the right thing by the players, club and supporters and go youth and development. Just add 2 years to Hardwicks contract so he has incentive to stick to the program we all know is good for the club and team!!!
As much as the Tigers club is doing things right, i don't think offering Dimma another 2 years after having coached the club for 10 games is part of the development.

Definitely having put more recruitment and talent scouting staff has reduced the influence of the coach's (and other management, a la Miller) ability to make ill informed decisions on who is best to be part of the development of a team.

For the original question, if we can't get a PP, then i don't care. The PP is the single biggest factor IMO. The difference between 4 and 6, in the long run, is more often than not, not a big issue.
 

SA TIGER

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lol talk about the here and now. what happens next yr when all indicators suggest we are in for another lean yr.

its amazing here we are 24 yrs later and supporters demading we make the exact same mistakes that have plauged us since the inception of the draft.

properly bottom out take the picks and dont rise until you have the quality you need to at least challenge for top 4. at a well run club it would mean 3 yrs of abject failure. but hey were richmond after 28 yrs of failure doing basically the same thing lets do it some more.

this club has never once in the history of the draft bottomed out and invested in youth. and people wonder why we cant make a dent on other teams. or wonder how is it possible for clubs to bottom out after us and go past us on the way back up. ffs people lets jst ****ing once try it. what the **** is 3 yrs when you have been truing to find a way for 28.
Yep, great idea! Let's properly bottom out (the Carltank way). What's another spoon in the collection hey? Mate, we've had the opportunity in 28 years to recruit quality players with high draft picks, BUT MISERABLY FAILED. Only in the past few seasons, the table has turned with our higher picks hauling such players as Deledio, Tambling, Cotchin, Jack and most recently Martin (with Lids our only No 1 pick). You need to realise that our club is heading towards the right direction by appointing the youthful Hardwick at the helm. Our administration has been overhauled and we've also pumped a heap of cash into finding the best available talent in the country (completely unllike the disastrous days of Wallace and Miller's sideshow). At the end of the day, I am extremely confident that another quality player will be chosen by our first round pick regardless of our win/loss ratio of 2010!
 

tigerT

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Yep, great idea! Let's properly bottom out (the Carltank way). What's another spoon in the collection hey? Mate, we've had the opportunity in 28 years to recruit quality players with high draft picks, BUT MISERABLY FAILED. Only in the past few seasons, the table has turned with our higher picks hauling such players as Deledio, Tambling, Cotchin, Jack and most recently Martin (with Lids our only No 1 pick). You need to realise that our club is heading towards the right direction by appointing the youthful Hardwick at the helm. Our administration has been overhauled and we've also pumped a heap of cash into finding the best available talent in the country (completely unllike the disastrous days of Wallace and Miller's sideshow). At the end of the day, I am extremely confident that another quality player will be chosen by our first round pick regardless of our win/loss ratio of 2010!
Half the season is already gone, whats another 1 and a half lean seasons in the whole scheme of things? By which stage the current crop of new draftees will have about 30 or so game into them and we'll be ready to make a "real" climb up the ladder. 1 win and ppl get carried away thinking we have the cattle. Word of advice we still need to turn over another 12-15 players over the next 2 years. If we can get pick 4 picks 27 & 28 and then next season picks 4 & 6 that gives us a better chance of landing 3 or 4 more potential A-graders to the side. Add that to Deledio/Martin/Cotchin/Reiwoldt and all of a sudden we have a serious A grade core to build a strong team around. DONT GET IMPATIENT. 1 and a half more seasons of this thats all we need
 

CallMeAl

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lol talk about the here and now. what happens next yr when all indicators suggest we are in for another lean yr.

its amazing here we are 24 yrs later and supporters demading we make the exact same mistakes that have plauged us since the inception of the draft.

properly bottom out take the picks and dont rise until you have the quality you need to at least challenge for top 4. at a well run club it would mean 3 yrs of abject failure. but hey were richmond after 28 yrs of failure doing basically the same thing lets do it some more.

this club has never once in the history of the draft bottomed out and invested in youth. and people wonder why we cant make a dent on other teams. or wonder how is it possible for clubs to bottom out after us and go past us on the way back up. ffs people lets jst ****ing once try it. what the **** is 3 yrs when you have been truing to find a way for 28.
What are you on about?

From 1986 - 1993 the only time we did not finish bottom four was 1988 when we finished bottom 5. (8 years bottom 5 - 7 of 8 years bottom 4)

Again from 2002-2004 bottom 4 climbing to bottom 5 in 2005 (3 years bottom 4, 4 years bottom 5)

since the intoduction of the draft (1986) we have not finished in the bottom half only twice.

only 7 times in that period have we not finished bottom 5

In the last 6 years only twice have we not finished bottom 5.

Oh, but bottom 5 is not good (bad?) enough? want lower picks.? What about getting more 1st picks?

Lets start in 1992, six years after the draft had been in place.

West coast were premiers without ever recieving a no 1 draft pick (they got one in that year)
As were Carlton in 1995, Essendon in 1993 and 2000, North in 1996 and 99, Adelaide in 1997 and 98, Port in 2004 and Sydney were premiers in 2005 12 years after their only no 1 pick. (who played more games with Richmond than Sydney)

Yet we have had a swag of early draft picks, including 3 no 1s. Where has that got us.

What you want us to do we have done plenty of already, without even trying.

The bottom line is the failure of richmond is not due to lack of early picks, it is, amongst other things, not being able to capitalise on those picks.
 

Final Siren

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have always been of the opinion that a spoon should HURT
ie LOSE a draft pick instead of get the best one

- perhaps have 3 priority picks if you get 3 spoons in a row or 3 in 5 yrs -ie basket case rebuild. enough to have to rebuild at least once without being tarnished, as you should be.

Or ease up the salary cap for a couple of years, or give a preferential draw or extra home games.
The problem of course is sorting the teams that lose because they're genuinely bereft of talent from those that lose because half their guns are being rested, their forwards are playing back, etc.

I don't know how you fix it, but I believe the current draft system is bad for footy.

Not just because it encourages tanking, although obviously it's wrong for clubs to gain big rewards for the most disgraceful dog act imaginable: throwing a match.

But because it lowers the standard of games. Today clubs cut loose genuinely good veterans for untried kids because there's no point winning half your games when you can finish bottom and get a good draft pick, while putting games into youngsters.

If Richmond was hell-bent on winning the maximum number of games in 2010, and screw 2011, we'd still have Nathan Brown and Joel Bowden on our list. We wouldn't have eight debutantes. And I reckon we'd be quite a bit more competitive.

But this would be madness under the current system, because at best we'd finish around 10th, and miss out on the draft picks we need to rise higher.

Part of the reason there's a big gap between the top and bottom teams is that sides who think they can win the flag hold on to their veterans. The rest give games to 18 year olds. And a 200-gamer plays better football than a first-gamer.

I like watching the kids come through as much as anyone, but we'd see them eventually anyway, when they're a little older and more experienced. If clubs didn't have such massive incentives to play youth, all footy fans would see higher quality games.
 
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lol talk about the here and now. what happens next yr when all indicators suggest we are in for another lean yr.

its amazing here we are 24 yrs later and supporters demading we make the exact same mistakes that have plauged us since the inception of the draft.

properly bottom out take the picks and dont rise until you have the quality you need to at least challenge for top 4. at a well run club it would mean 3 yrs of abject failure. but hey were richmond after 28 yrs of failure doing basically the same thing lets do it some more.

this club has never once in the history of the draft bottomed out and invested in youth. and people wonder why we cant make a dent on other teams. or wonder how is it possible for clubs to bottom out after us and go past us on the way back up. ffs people lets jst ****ing once try it. what the **** is 3 yrs when you have been truing to find a way for 28.
I'm staggered that some people still cannot see this SC.
 

amcre

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Half the season is already gone, whats another 1 and a half lean seasons in the whole scheme of things? By which stage the current crop of new draftees will have about 30 or so game into them and we'll be ready to make a "real" climb up the ladder. 1 win and ppl get carried away thinking we have the cattle. Word of advice we still need to turn over another 12-15 players over the next 2 years. If we can get pick 4 picks 27 & 28 and then next season picks 4 & 6 that gives us a better chance of landing 3 or 4 more potential A-graders to the side. Add that to Deledio/Martin/Cotchin/Reiwoldt and all of a sudden we have a serious A grade core to build a strong team around. DONT GET IMPATIENT. 1 and a half more seasons of this thats all we need
I seriously think some people want us to be mediocre forever. Pick 4 will generally net you a better player than pick 6...plus pick 6 is cursed.

I don't think we will win another 4 games anyway...I think the main thing is securing pick 4 and a PP. As has been mentioned it is not even the draft where the PP will come in handy.

If we finish bottom we will have picks 4, 26 and 27. Now we could take two more outside mids with those picks and hope for them to be good players. If you take a Gaff or a Green at pick 4 you can almost gurantee they will be A grade. Pick 26-27 is more speculative but this year would have netted Bartlett who IMO will be a star and would have gone top ten if not for injury. There are always decent sliders that get to this range.

My main point is we would then be able to keep our 2nd rounder and net another young talent, but also trade the PP.

I would be looking at trading the PP for Patrick Vezpremi who went pick 11 in 2007 and reportedly we are into heavily. Make no mistake about this kid playing reserves atm he is very talented HFF and it was only 12 month ago there were huge raps on him. Injuries have hit and he is disgruntled, but it is the perfect time to get this kind of kid who could be a star into our club for a secound round pick. I think this kid will be A grade so that is why I am so keen on securing a PP to ensure that we will be able to trade something half decent to have a shot at him. He is still contracted or else we could just go through the PSD.

To be honest I cannot see us only winning 4 games next year even though we could qualify for pick 6 and it would be in our best interest. We have too much young talent that will improve not to win 5 games. It is kind of shattering because you would think pick 4, 26, Vezpremi and 4 and 6 next year as well as a raft of new kids would top off our development.

Happy to finish bottom and get pick 4 and a PP.
 

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CoggaRules

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I seriously think some people want us to be mediocre forever. Pick 4 will generally net you a better player than pick 6...plus pick 6 is cursed.
Gotta strange feeling you have discounted how successful we have been with pick 4 dude and how cursed it is for us. Not to mention pick 8 either. ;)
 

nut

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The problem with with deliberately finishing bottom is that it puts pressure on some players to keep their spot.

Ok lets say we have decided to bottom out this year and next. Players like Mcguane, Thursfield and Moore down back will be smashed and will be hugely criticised on here and calls for trading them would be deafening, but their perceived value would be low.. The result is we actually get rid of talented players and replace them with potential from undervalued picks only because we have been deliberately playing poorly..... and the cycle starts again.

We need to break the cycle. Enforce strict team rules and start building a culture for success. Developing players and the team as a whole.

The Idea that we will just sit back and stock pile draft picks is ludicrous. Players would get disgruntled and want to leave, players being played out of position would get frustrated and they would also cop unwanted criticism ...etc. Not a good place to WANT to be, making it difficult to attract good players with out paying the earth.

We need to increase the value of all our players, not hold them back.

When we start winning clubs will come after our players and we can then do something we haven't been able to since ottens.... and that is TRADE..... .

We start winning and players like Thursfield, Mcguane and Moore, our three best defenders, become very attractive to other clubs.... it also increases the value of our second tier players like Rance, Gourdis etc...

We could trade one of the three, elevating Gourdis whilst not hugely effecting the list but in the process receive a pretty good pick and injecting more talent.

That is good list management.
 

SA TIGER

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The problem with with deliberately finishing bottom is that it puts pressure on some players to keep their spot.

Ok lets say we have decided to bottom out this year and next. Players like Mcguane, Thursfield and Moore down back will be smashed and will be hugely criticised on here and calls for trading them would be deafening, but their perceived value would be low.. The result is we actually get rid of talented players and replace them with potential from undervalued picks only because we have been deliberately playing poorly..... and the cycle starts again.

We need to break the cycle. Enforce strict team rules and start building a culture for success. Developing players and the team as a whole.

The Idea that we will just sit back and stock pile draft picks is ludicrous. Players would get disgruntled and want to leave, players being played out of position would get frustrated and they would also cop unwanted criticism ...etc. Not a good place to WANT to be, making it difficult to attract good players with out paying the earth.

We need to increase the value of all our players, not hold them back.

When we start winning clubs will come after our players and we can then do something we haven't been able to since ottens.... and that is TRADE..... .

We start winning and players like Thursfield, Mcguane and Moore, our three best defenders, become very attractive to other clubs.... it also increases the value of our second tier players like Rance, Gourdis etc...

We could trade one of the three, elevating Gourdis whilst not hugely effecting the list but in the process receive a pretty good pick and injecting more talent.

That is good list management.
Plenty of valid points here. Well executed! :thumbsu:
 

CoggaRules

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The problem with with deliberately finishing bottom is that it puts pressure on some players to keep their spot.

Ok lets say we have decided to bottom out this year and next. Players like Mcguane, Thursfield and Moore down back will be smashed and will be hugely criticised on here and calls for trading them would be deafening, but their perceived value would be low.. The result is we actually get rid of talented players and replace them with potential from undervalued picks only because we have been deliberately playing poorly..... and the cycle starts again.

We need to break the cycle. Enforce strict team rules and start building a culture for success. Developing players and the team as a whole.

The Idea that we will just sit back and stock pile draft picks is ludicrous. Players would get disgruntled and want to leave, players being played out of position would get frustrated and they would also cop unwanted criticism ...etc. Not a good place to WANT to be, making it difficult to attract good players with out paying the earth.

We need to increase the value of all our players, not hold them back.

When we start winning clubs will come after our players and we can then do something we haven't been able to since ottens.... and that is TRADE..... .

We start winning and players like Thursfield, Mcguane and Moore, our three best defenders, become very attractive to other clubs.... it also increases the value of our second tier players like Rance, Gourdis etc...

We could trade one of the three, elevating Gourdis whilst not hugely effecting the list but in the process receive a pretty good pick and injecting more talent.

That is good list management.
A simpletons perspective. Especially when suggesting "Players would get disgruntled and want to leave, players being played out of position would get frustrated and they would also cop unwanted criticism "

Dude, so you think that if that was to occur, the players in question would not have had a briefing as to what the big picture is all about?

These types of threads invariably evolve after a drought breaking win. ITs the same old same old with alot of tigerheads here. They forever go on about a winning culture and forget that when we finished 9th in TW's second last, we did all we could to foster that winning culture and that equated to JS a year later, fools.
Steady as she goes with the structure of the side, it will put us in a realistic position to assess what we have to do next, roundabout round 15. ;)
 

acr2751

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I'm staggered that some people still cannot see this SC.
.

i think most see this.
but
i would think the stigma of the wooden spoon or the stigma of cheating to achieve this extra pick is what most would be talking about.
i want a flag i dont want a tainted flag.even if people think its only working the system. If carltank when a flag any time soon ill be giving there supporters heaps same as there last flag where they cheated to get it
it would be like putting a * next to it on the honour board.

ill take the pp and the first pick if we are that bad which we proberly are.
 

Spluff

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i think most see this.
but
i would think the stigma of the wooden spoon or the stigma of cheating to achieve this extra pick is what most would be talking about.
i want a flag i dont want a tainted flag.even if people think its only working the system. If carltank when a flag any time soon ill be giving there supporters heaps same as there last flag where they cheated to get it
it would be like putting a * next to it on the honour board.

ill take the pp and the first pick if we are that bad which we proberly are.
Put it this way, what would you rather - a 'tainted' flag, or no flag? Hell, a tainted flag, or no finals?
 

nut

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A simpletons perspective. Especially when suggesting "Players would get disgruntled and want to leave, players being played out of position would get frustrated and they would also cop unwanted criticism "

Dude, so you think that if that was to occur, the players in question would not have had a briefing as to what the big picture is all about?

These types of threads invariably evolve after a drought breaking win. ITs the same old same old with alot of tigerheads here. They forever go on about a winning culture and forget that when we finished 9th in TW's second last, we did all we could to foster that winning culture and that equated to JS a year later, fools.
Steady as she goes with the structure of the side, it will put us in a realistic position to assess what we have to do next, roundabout round 15. ;)
I suggested we lie down 2008... was laughed at. But that year we gave up pick 1,2 and the first pick in the PSD.
The rewards for lying down this year and next is a lot less.
People suggesting we lie down next season is mind baffling.
 

Toothpick Vic

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I seriously think some people want us to be mediocre forever. Pick 4 will generally net you a better player than pick 6...plus pick 6 is cursed.

I don't think we will win another 4 games anyway...I think the main thing is securing pick 4 and a PP. As has been mentioned it is not even the draft where the PP will come in handy.

If we finish bottom we will have picks 4, 26 and 27. Now we could take two more outside mids with those picks and hope for them to be good players. If you take a Gaff or a Green at pick 4 you can almost gurantee they will be A grade. Pick 26-27 is more speculative but this year would have netted Bartlett who IMO will be a star and would have gone top ten if not for injury. There are always decent sliders that get to this range.

My main point is we would then be able to keep our 2nd rounder and net another young talent, but also trade the PP.

I would be looking at trading the PP for Patrick Vezpremi who went pick 11 in 2007 and reportedly we are into heavily. Make no mistake about this kid playing reserves atm he is very talented HFF and it was only 12 month ago there were huge raps on him. Injuries have hit and he is disgruntled, but it is the perfect time to get this kind of kid who could be a star into our club for a secound round pick. I think this kid will be A grade so that is why I am so keen on securing a PP to ensure that we will be able to trade something half decent to have a shot at him. He is still contracted or else we could just go through the PSD.

To be honest I cannot see us only winning 4 games next year even though we could qualify for pick 6 and it would be in our best interest. We have too much young talent that will improve not to win 5 games. It is kind of shattering because you would think pick 4, 26, Vezpremi and 4 and 6 next year as well as a raft of new kids would top off our development.

Happy to finish bottom and get pick 4 and a PP.
Spot on :thumbsu:

That priority pick is equally as important as getting pick 4 in my opinion. Even if it doesn't get used in a trade, just imagine if there were a little handful of sliders on draft day and we've got those 2 vital picks up our sleeve. Could be massive for the club.

But by the same token it could well go a long way in securing a very good player to the club. Say one of those picks in the 20s plus a player for someone.. You just never know what clubs might accept and it would be very a very handy pick to bring to the trade table..

Im all for building a winning culture around the club but we need to ensure we've got enough cattle to do it.. For now let the kids enjoy a carefree season learning their craft, size up which borderline players can cut it and which can't and ensure we go into this draft and trade period WITH THE BEST CHANCE POSSIBLE OF IMPROVING OUR LIST :thumbsu:
 

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History has dealt us supporters a bum hand - 3 decades of incompetence! An earlier post detailed all the bottom 4 finishes have have accumulated in the last 24yrs. How much talent did that get us, bugger all because the Club was incompetent in identifying and then developing talent and incompetent in managing the list. For god sake, how many high draft picks did we trade away in exchange for other teams' duds.

March, Gale and Hardwick have I believe given us our most talented set of club administrators since Wilson Richmond and Hafey, even at this early stage. For the 1st time in 3 decades we have a solid administrative base to build a strong and competitive list.

Because of all of our earlier failings we have to bottom out properly this season and even next to bring in enough talent to compete to be a top 4 and a premiership contender.

I have faith in the footy department but the chances of consistently finding best 22 players in lower rounds of the draft is not sustainable. We need more A-graders. As much as I have loved seeing Nason, Nahas and Webberley in the team and developing this season they aren't ever going to be A-Graders, servicable best 22 probably but definitely upgradable.

The Club has its best opportunity since the mid-90s to build something special and we don't need to risk it with cheap wins that lose us draft position. I see nothing wrong in playing the kids, teaching them and giving them AFL experience of the gameplan as part of the big picture to see the team win games from 2012 on.

If they are coached right the losses now don't scar, look at Carlton and Melbourne, they have or are coming out the other side, do they look as though they are scarred permanently and can't/won't develop a winning culture. The coach and players determine the 'winning' culture, not the wins/losses.
 
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i dont want a tainted flag at all.
i follow the storm a bit hows those flags going?

something earnt is worth having.
If Melbourne wins a flag in 4 or 5 years time with Watts, Scully and Trengrove will it be "tainted"? You'd be drawing a very long bow to suggest it was and an even longer one to think that any of their supporters would care if the odd Richmond fan gave them a bit of curry. Was Hawthorn's 2008 flag "tainted"?

While we're on the subject of long bows... the Storm?

No one is suggesting we deliberately throw any games or CHEAT. We just want to give ourselves the best possible chance to succeed with this rebuild (is this number 7 or 8, I've lost count).
 

CoggaRules

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I suggested we lie down 2008... was laughed at. But that year we gave up pick 1,2 and the first pick in the PSD.
The rewards for lying down this year and next is a lot less.
People suggesting we lie down next season is mind baffling.
another simpletons perspective. Its a lot less yes...but the rewards would be a lot more than the other 16 clubs..and a little less than the 2 newbies. You need to take a good look at the overall picture. Yes we will be next in line after GC and GWS, but yes also we will have number 1 pick ahead of the current competition that will be our major competitors over the next 5 years, get with the program. ;)
 

Punt_Road_Roar

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I dont know why people are all getting worked up about how many wins we should get. The truth is we wont get more than 4 this year and we will finish bottom. Our next big chance for a win will be against West Coast after that I can't see us winning another game.

IMO though if by chance we did control our destiny, the best thing to do is take the best picks available at the time. I read someone say its a weaker draft anyway so it wont matter if we keep winning. Are you kidding me ? I'd say its even more important that we grab that pick 4.
 

amcre

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I dont know why people are all getting worked up about how many wins we should get. The truth is we wont get more than 4 this year and we will finish bottom. Our next big chance for a win will be against West Coast after that I can't see us winning another game.

IMO though if by chance we did control our destiny, the best thing to do is take the best picks available at the time. I read someone say its a weaker draft anyway so it wont matter if we keep winning. Are you kidding me ? I'd say its even more important that we grab that pick 4.
I don't think this is presumed to be a weak draft at all. I think the talent is meant to run a lot deeper than other years.

It is the biggest load of crap saying the 17yr olds are affecting the draft. Of course they are slightly but probably only Toy and Alex Keath who are not in the draft would have gone top 4....maybe.

Last year was meant to be compromised yet I read something today saying it could be the best draft since 2001.

I think heard this is a pretty deep draft which is good for us loading up down the bottom end.
 
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