Society/Culture Do you believe gender is binary?

Is gender binary?

  • No. It's the range of characteristics pertaining/differentiating between femininity and masculinity.

  • Yes. Baking means you're a biological woman.


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CM86

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We understand genomes, chromosomes, sex, gender, race, attributes, terminology etc.

We learn as we go, and our language and understanding of the world around us changes as we do.
Some things that we were previously unaware of, can make us uncomfortable. These issues range from big to small, unreal to lacklustre. And there is always a critic around, on either side, trying to elbow others out of the way to give their lonely opinion


We have attributed certain features to biological men, and certain features to biological women over our existence.
These are what can be called, gender attributes. Male and female.

Who is actually stubborn enough to still believe there is no overlap between male and female attributes?



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Can a biological man, who believes he is male, have any female attributes?

Can he paint his fingernails, grow his hair long, cry, bake, stay at home and raise children? Can he have a sexual relationship with another biological man?
Or are these no longer gender attributes that we hold to be true? Are they now more fluid, in that they are attributes of both men and women?

Or do no attributes matter, other than giving birth, having a period, and chromosomes?




We don't know all the answers yet. There are countless issues that arise when applied to real world scenarios. There are problems that exist in the movements.

But bigots who are using it as a last line of defence against LGBTQ+, for whatever disgraceful and ignorant view they have on homosexuals etc... they are the ones that should be called out, more than someone asking to be referred to by their name, or by 'they'.
It's sad to see how many in our society have been conned into hating these people, while defending the bigots.
 

Upgrayedd

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Have to go with the Science where Sex isn't Binary. Anything else is me making guess work on my feelings
 

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CM86

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Have to go with the Science where Sex isn't Binary. Anything else is me making guess work on my feelings
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/


Especially alarming is that these “intellectual” assertions are used by nonscientists to claim a scientific basis for the dehumanization of trans people. The real world consequences are stacking up: the trans military ban, bathroom bills, and removal of workplace and medical discrimination protections, a 41-51 percent suicide attempt rate and targeted fatal violence . It’s not just internet trolling anymore.​
 

CM86

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I'm not quite sure the difference between sex and gender I must admit.

There is plenty of confusion, and it can be complicated.
Which is why it has been weaponised by bigots.
There is so much misinformation, overzealous activists and clickbait, it's hard to keep track of what's what.

Wiki is good.
If you want some quick and clear explanations, do a search on here for "gender" by "Malifice".
He has an incredibly strong understanding, and has explained it in clear detail across a number of threads. He also backs up his statements and opinions with sources.



Gender is different to biological sex. The former is socially constructed, and subjective. The latter is an objective biological reality.

You can assume, and be accepted as a different gender to your biological sex, or even assume and be accepted as no gender at all. There are literally tens of millions of people in the world who are (and do) just that, plus several entire cultures (South American, Thailand, PnG etc) that have multiple gender roles that exist within them other than just 'male' and 'female'.


As for biological sex, that's largely fixed at birth (or more truthfully, at conception). You can get surgery to more closely resemble your gender identity, but it doesn't change the biological reality in the slightest.
 

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FACT: Gender is assigned at birth based on genitalia.

I sympathise with those who are dissatisfied with their gender, but being unhappy about it doesn't magically make them the opposite.
 
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Upgrayedd

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FACT: Gender is assigned at birth based on genitalia.

I sympathise with those who are dissatisfied with their gender, but being unhappy about it doesn't magically make them the opposite.
Sort of, Yes Gender is assigned, But it's a social construct. Much like Religion, If I'm born a Catholic doesnt mean if i become unhappy I cant change
 
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kranky al

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FACT: Gender is assigned at birth based on genitalia.

I sympathise with those who are dissatisfied with their gender, but being unhappy about it doesn't magically make them the opposite.
Very simple minded response.

do you know how many people are born with both kinds of genitals in various forms and some doctor makes a decision that the baby is more male than female or vice versa and cuts away the “extra” genitals and the child grows up feeling the opposite of what the doctors decision was.
 
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Power Raid

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FACT: Gender is assigned at birth based on genitalia.

I sympathise with those who are dissatisfied with their gender, but being unhappy about it doesn't magically make them the opposite.

I believe gender is 50 shades of grey but you're right. Perhaps we are reading too much into it as a society.

At the end of the day, women probably want to pee "in" a toilet that hasn't had 50 blokes go before. Thus the simple genital assessment suffices for the assigned toilet.

For other areas in life, I can see how this is a simple gender test is little more challenging. ie health and safety in gender assignment for professional sports.

At the end of the day, if someone asks to be referred to as a different gender then so be it.
 
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Carringbush2010

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FACT: Gender is biologically assigned at birth based on genitalia.

I sympathise with those who are dissatisfied with their gender, but being unhappy about it doesn't magically make them the opposite.

EFA,

Gender is both a social construct and a biological reality. Yes that is inconsistent in scientific fact, however there is no harm in one claiming whichever gender they choose.
 

CM86

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FACT: Gender is assigned at birth based on genitalia.
As you said. If you have a *** you're a woman, if you have a *** you're a man.

So according to you, gender affirming surgery actually changes biology???? Wow.
Post op m2f is now a biological woman. Post op f2m is now biologically a man?


I have to disagree with you, sorry.
You make a compelling point. Well, you just wrote 'FACT', in lieu supporting your point... But, FACT don't care about my feelings.

Besides, it's clear you've spent a lot of time thinking about this, in order to reach such a substantive yet nuanced position.


What happens if a biological maleman assigned so at birth due to genitalia... loses it in a horrific accident?
Are they now non-binary?
 

Saint

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Biological Sex is developed in the womb, it's not completely binary, but very close to it.

Gender is something different which is assigned by almost all of society (for some good reasons, i.e. boys and girls behave differently based on biology). But society then also implies conformity to gender, which can be difficult in formative years.

The reality is that in our current society the need for men to hunt and women to gather has been moot for 2 hundreds of years. So gender is becoming near-meaningless. Only things like sports and very few professions does the physical strength of "most" men, due to their sex, give them an advantage.

For health reasons, it's also worth identifying 'sex' for some reasons (i.e. medical research). Can't count the number of times where what might have been a meaningless detail captured by a survey became meaningful much later for some unknown reason.
 

Todman

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https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/


Especially alarming is that these “intellectual” assertions are used by nonscientists to claim a scientific basis for the dehumanization of trans people. The real world consequences are stacking up: the trans military ban, bathroom bills, and removal of workplace and medical discrimination protections, a 41-51 percent suicide attempt rate and targeted fatal violence . It’s not just internet trolling anymore.​
It's all about the suicide rate.
 

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CM86

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It's all about the suicide rate.
That's a big part of it.

I actually assumed you'd be very anti-LGBTQI+, throwing out the usual talking points.


But you're right. This is important to help reduce the suicide rate.


As with any persecuted/ostracised group in our society. Being told there is something wrong with you, that you don't fit in, that you're 'bad', leads to steadily diminished mental health.
And there is a hardship and difficulty for these groups to reach out for help, because it's a 'shameful' thing to admit.

As these groups become normalised and accepted into our society, we notice a decrease in self-harm and suicide.

A good example is here in Australia with the same sex marriage plebiscite.
It had a huge impact on the mental health of LGBTQI+ people. Because it pushed the ostracisation/persecution narrative. It grew the feeling that they aren't normal, that they aren't wanted. That there is something wrong with them.
 

spinynorman

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It had a huge impact on the mental health of LGBTQI+ people. Because it pushed the ostracisation/persecution narrative. It grew the feeling that they aren't normal, that they aren't wanted. That there is something wrong with them.

The plebiscite saw a group of people have to turn to others to vindicate their existence and their right to dignity and equality. Even with the good result, it was unnecessary and, frankly, degrading.

The losers of that debate (who didn't really, materially, lose anything - there were only winners in allowing marriage equality) immediately jumped to a new, smaller group to diminish and oppress. It ought to be resisted but unfortunately our trans friends don't have the same visibility and subsequent respect in society that the LGB have been able to achieve (in a pretty short period of time!).
 

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The plebiscite saw a group of people have to turn to others to vindicate their existence and their right to dignity and equality. Even with the good result, it was unnecessary and, frankly, degrading.

The losers of that debate (who didn't really, materially, lose anything - there were only winners in allowing marriage equality) immediately jumped to a new, smaller group to diminish and oppress. It ought to be resisted but unfortunately our trans friends don't have the same visibility and subsequent respect in society that the LGB have been able to achieve (in a pretty short period of time!).
I would say the T's have been on offence since gay marriage has passed. Did you think they are worse off since gay marriage passed?
 

spinynorman

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I would say the T's have been on offence since gay marriage has passed. Did you think they are worse off since gay marriage passed?

Very little has changed in the law in this country, but I would anecdotally think there's been a small uptake in people's sympathy - certainly not treated as jokes, in liberal-left circles at least, in the way they could still be a punchline a decade ago.

On the other hand, their very existence has become a political football and the new front of the never-ending, endlessly dumb culture wars, and that isn't a fun experience for any person just trying to live their life in peace, with dignity and respect.
 

mattf83

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Very little has changed in the law in this country, but I would anecdotally think there's been a small uptake in people's sympathy - certainly not treated as jokes, in liberal-left circles at least, in the way they could still be a punchline a decade ago.

On the other hand, their very existence has become a political football and the new front of the never-ending, endlessly dumb culture wars, and that isn't a fun experience for any person just trying to live their life in peace, with dignity and respect.
I think most people respectfully accept trans men and women, less perhaps non-binary.

That’s where I tap out though, I will not indulge in 60+ gender identities nonsense, or neo pronouns. The people pushing this aren’t championing trans rights.
 

mattf83

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That was one uni professor. It went viral as the righty outrage machine got its hooks in, selling it as "THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING NOW!"

Streisand effect. Now they appear on business forms. Sucks to be a hater :D
You need to read more.
 

Chief

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So its only one uni professor?
The original viral, burning outrage? Far as I recall it came about as a reaction to a uni lecturer in the US somewhere.

Conservatives need an other, a bogey man to distract from the reality that the conservative, capitalist, fascist renaissance hasn't fixed anything. The working class know things are sh*t for them, and the middle class is dying out. The rich need to give them a target. It's the cancel culture taking away the funny people on the talkie box! It's the poindexter in the University and the weirdo men who wanna be women!

Who gives a pinch of sh*t if someone wants to be referred to as an alien cat? Who does it hurt?

Is it any weirder than this sh*t??

 

Leeda

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Stack the decks…misinformation keeps people walking everywhere but not allowed anywhere
 

Leeda

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The original viral, burning outrage? Far as I recall it came about as a reaction to a uni lecturer in the US somewhere.

Conservatives need an other, a bogey man to distract from the reality that the conservative, capitalist, fascist renaissance hasn't fixed anything. The working class know things are sh*t for them, and the middle class is dying out. The rich need to give them a target. It's the cancel culture taking away the funny people on the talkie box! It's the poindexter in the University and the weirdo men who wanna be women!

Who gives a pinch of sh*t if someone wants to be referred to as an alien cat? Who does it hurt?

Is it any weirder than this sh*t??


You shotgun sally…rough is not done…