Prediction Do you believe the AFL will ever be the same again?

[Elmer_Judd]

To be fair, we don't really give a s**t about the derbies either... Only become interesting every now and then when Freo is up and about.

The AFL needs to have two clubs in every state in order to progress their own strategic objectives. I've never really said one way or the other about what Freo contributes to the comp. In fact, life without Freo would probably make life easier for West Coast in some ways.

But your comment demonstrates you don't understand footy in WA and it's relationship to the broader AFL ecosystem. Freo give a lot to the game in terms of contributing to grass roots footy in WA through their WAFC royalty that then goes towards footy at all levels.

No Freo/West Coast, then you probably don't have Patrick Cripps playing at AFL and leading your club. Currently there are enough players from WA in the AFL system to fill three teams. If we lose Fremantle, we will some of our ability to produce AFL standard talent in WA and the entire competition will suffer.

Fremantle aren't the biggest, but are far from the smallest club;
- Fremantle had 7th highest home ground attendance in 2019
-Revenue of 57.5 million (10th)
- $24.83 million in gate receipts placing them 4th (behind Magpies, Tigers, Eagles)

Those results were posted in a time when their on-field results have been poor since 2015, they are sound financial numbers and provide insight in to the viability of Fremantle as an entity.

The same things can not be said for North, Saints and Melbourne (and potentially the Bulldogs).

I dare say all of those clubs tend to have higher tv ratings (esp on FTA) than Freo.

The tribalism of Melbourne based footy fans and their clubs is still alive and thriving, and I am sure the AFL would hate to see another PR disaster like Fitzroy folding/being absorbed by Brisbane or Waverly Park being sold off, which cost thousands of fans able to attend/going to games.

It will be tight for a few years, but I am sure all clubs will find a way to survive in some way.

 

[Capriati]

I dare say all of those clubs tend to have higher tv ratings (esp on FTA) than Freo.

The tribalism of Melbourne based footy fans and their clubs is still alive and thriving, and I am sure the AFL would hate to see another PR disaster like Fitzroy folding/being absorbed by Brisbane or Waverly Park being sold off, which cost thousands of fans able to attend/going to games.

It will be tight for a few years, but I am sure all clubs will find a way to survive in some way.

Fitzroy had been struggling for decades...

What more could the AFL do to help them?

When the AFL was contemplating granting licenses for the Bears and Eagles in 1986, clubs voted and Brisbane got in easy.

Clubs were against a WA team entering the VFL as they were fearful we would become too big and powerful.

We were meant to pay our 4 million dollar licence fee off over a decade. Oakley told Fitzroy that they would get 1/12 of the licence fee an that would keep the doors open for at least another year.

That one vote is what got us admitted in to the competion, but there was a catch: We were given 30 days to come up with the 4 million.

All these years later, Fitzroy is no more, and we are the most successful club in the modern AFL era in terms of consistent success, not to mention the richest.

Isn't it funny how things work out?

 

[madmug]

First of all every club get AFL handouts, including West Coast. View attachment 847766

speaking of my club they made roughly $35 million in revenue without AFL distribution money. They are making plenty of money on their own.

Every sporting competition in the world has clubs that make more money than others. You need multiple teams to have a league.

Currently all Vic clubs are in the top 15 in producing their own revenue.

How many teams do you want in this competition?

You replied to my comment on GWS and Gold Coast being the 2 weakest teams, they the only teams that more than 50% of their revenue comes from the league.

You’ve just said “who’s money my club is going to spend? it’s all gone.” Where do you expect GWS and Gold Coast to get there money from? How long has there been a team up in Brisbane? My club will able to make its own money.

One hopes all clubs survive this.

However if it comes to picking clubs to 'survive', how do the expansion clubs affect the media rights income? Do they bring in more than they take, or not?

 

[fred cook]

Let's be honest here, if we designed a national comp today, it would not look like the one we currently have.

The only reason we even have an AFL is the VFL model was broken, with majority Victorian clubs bankrupt which threatened the footy ecosystem across the country.

33 years later and nothing has changed. Our model is broken. It always was, we just papered over the cracks thanks to 30 years of economic growth.

As it currently stands, big clubs subsidize smaller unprofitable clubs.

As stated in my previous post, GWS and Gold Coast are important to the games long term growth. NSW and QLD are the last frontiers and increasing participation in those states (which is happening) will be extremely important in the future. Having 2 clubs in each state is the bare minimum to continue driving grassroots footy.

On the other hand, we have an oversaturated market in Melbourne with 9 teams in one city. Melbourne is not big enough to sustain 9 clubs, and unfortunately due to the long history of those clubs, lines in the sand have already been drawn and allegiances made. Essentially there is no way to either expand the size of the pie, or divvy it up in different ways. Small teams like Melbourne, St Kilda, Bulldogs and North have all been getting by on hand outs from the AFL and have never demonstrated an economic model that is profitable irrespective of on-field success.

Whose money will you spend from now on? It's all gone...

The good ole days are over. Sorry.

 

[Ted Hillary]

One thing you can be sure of. The Boys Club, Melbourne Establishment of whatever you want to call it will go down fighting to retain control of football in Australia.

The game doesn't need the AFL. Football will live on forever without this self serving bunch.

I really hope this wipes out the AFL.

The clubs are another matter and I hope they survive without the bloated salaries and cronyism.

 

[Glek]

How is it sad to call out clubs that have sponged off the big clubs via the AFL for the last 30 years?

If you read my earlier post I explained my rationale.

The competition can no longer sustain clubs free loading and not offering any strategic importance in sharing the game.

This is a great opportunity to streamline the game and rid ourselves of dead weight.

I say this with a heavy heart :sadface:

Exactly, take the charity of Anzac Eve & Queens Birthday away and what have you left? The MFC go broke.

 

[Gavin Excell]

One thing you can be sure of. The Boys Club, Melbourne Establishment of whatever you want to call it will go down fighting to retain control of football in Australia.

The game doesn't need the AFL. Football will live on forever without this self serving bunch.

I really hope this wipes out the AFL.

The clubs are another matter and I hope they survive without the bloated salaries and cronyism.

Why would you hope it wipes out the AFL?

 

[Ted Hillary]

Why would you hope it wipes out the AFL?

Because football doesn't need the AFL and would be better off without it. I want it replaced with a much more community minded league that spreads the wealth.

 

[AndyD]

Incredibly stupid at a time when the AFL needs every dollar they could get, that people would be advocating telling 80-100k paying members they they no longer want their money via mergers

 

[Capriati]

Incredibly stupid at a time when the AFL needs every dollar they could get, that people would be advocating telling 80-100k paying members they they no longer want their money via mergers

Except if over-saturation means those entities aren't viable.

Then it's simply "restructuring the competition".

 

[HTT]

AFL is too big to fail.

It’ll be back to the way it was soon enough. Give it 10 years and you’ll never know this happened.

Chances of a Tassie team have taken a pretty big hit though.

Certainly a new team in tassie will be off the cards.
Outside chance of a club in trouble getting relocated though. I don’t think it’ll happen but it’s a much higher chance of happening than it was 2 weeks ago.

 

[HTT]

GWS and Gold Coast are the 2 weakest teams

The AFL would be absolutely crazy to not be maximising presence in rugby states in coming years as the NRL is going to take a serious hit.

 

[Glek]

The AFL would be absolutely crazy to not be maximising presence in rugby states in coming years as the NRL is going to take a serious hit.

I could see the NRL having 10-12 sides so yes I agree a serious hit is on the cards.

 

[Blackas87]

Exactly, take the charity of Anzac Eve & Queens Birthday away and what have you left? The MFC go broke.

Uh MFC had $35 million in self made revenue last year, both those games were away games.

The AFL would be absolutely crazy to not be maximising presence in rugby states in coming years as the NRL is going to take a serious hit.

I’m not saying those clubs shouldn’t be in the competition, just pointing out to another poster that the 2 clubs he said were the weakest were wrong.

 

[Kwality]

First of all every club get AFL handouts, including West Coast. View attachment 847766

speaking of my club they made roughly $35 million in revenue without AFL distribution money. They are making plenty of money on their own.

Every sporting competition in the world has clubs that make more money than others. You need multiple teams to have a league.

Currently all Vic clubs are in the top 15 in producing their own revenue.

How many teams do you want in this competition?

You replied to my comment on GWS and Gold Coast being the 2 weakest teams, they the only teams that more than 50% of their revenue comes from the league.

You’ve just said “who’s money my club is going to spend? it’s all gone.” Where do you expect GWS and Gold Coast to get there money from? How long has there been a team up in Brisbane? My club will able to make its own money.

There is a distribution from the AFL to all clubs.
There is money paid to the club that goes premiers, aka thery earn it.
Then there is the discretionary distributions.

This is a chance to set the comp up for the future, a chance to put the State League model of the 1900s on the shelf & review the structure for 2000s.

Some will always be against change, challenged to move from their comfort zone.

 

[Roylion]

Fitzroy had been struggling for decades...

What more could the AFL do to help them?

Fitzroy could have survived and prospered with a bit of AFL aid that has been extended to other Melbourne based clubs such as the Western Bulldogs, Melbourne and North Melbourne. Fitzroy in 1992-93 was a very competitive side. Crowds of 50,000 and above for some Fitzroy games in 1992 and 1993, as well as crowds of above 25,000 for pre-season games showed that the club could attract spectators, if competitive. The club actually made a profit in 1993, they'd finally got a social club that was making money through the Fitzroy Club Hotel (purchased in March 1992) and were making plans to return to the Brunswick Street Oval (just up the road from the Fitzroy Club Hotel) as a training and administration base. The club had actually gained approval from the Council in 1992 to do just that, but just couldn't find the spare $250,000 to renovate the old heritage grandstand and build a modern gymnasium over the existing community rooms.

Fitzroy made a small annual profit each year from 1993-95, courtesy of their social club just up from the Brunswick Street Oval.

The AFL had the funds, (they were willing to spend $12 million in 1996 on mergers). Fitzroy was $2.7 million in debt, of which $1.25 million was to one secured creditor. Fitzroy would have never sought a merger if they could have secured an extra $1 million in funding - $0.5 million to return to the Brunswick Street Oval and upgrade the facilities (agreed deal already successfully negotiated with the existing Fitzroy local council) and $0.5 million to attract players to make the club more competitive onfield.

The current Brisbane Lions CEO, Greg Swann was one of those who was brought in to recover the secured creditor's debt in 1996 and he has publicly stated that Fitzroy could have (in his words) 'easily been retained' in the AFL competition had there been the will by the AFL to do so.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

One thing I would like to see moving forward is for all AFL clubs to accept who they are in the landscape and operate according to how they sit in that landscape.
AFL clubs have been sheep for Decades now, they see one club do something and the other 17 follow it. If Collingwood have 30 people operating in the coaching box and on the bench on match day because they can offird to do it then that does not mean than a Gold Coast should or a St Kilda should. They should operate within their means.
There is no proof in AFL football that having more people provides success, there is no proof that having your own reserves side provides success yet all clubs have just decided to follow everyone else and not once to look at whether or not they can afford to do it.
I have no doubt what so ever that if the Eagles had just a senior coach and 3 assistants that we would still sit where we sit, there is simply no need other than a want because other clubs do it that AFL clubs have these casts of thousands.

This has to be a priority from AFL head quarters going forward to tell their clubs to live by their means. They don’t need to be all the same.

 

[Blackas87]

There is a distribution from the AFL to all clubs.
There is money paid to the club that goes premiers, aka thery earn it.
Then there is the discretionary distributions.

This is a chance to set the comp up for the future, a chance to put the State League model of the 1900s on the shelf & review the structure for 2000s.

Some will always be against change, challenged to move from their comfort zone.

Not sure what model you think is best? I’m not sure what you want? The distribution money to be equal to all clubs? Then prize to the winners?

 

[Kwality]

One thing I would like to see moving forward is for all AFL clubs to accept who they are in the landscape and operate according to how they sit in that landscape.
AFL clubs have been sheep for Decades now, they see one club do something and the other 17 follow it. If Collingwood have 30 people operating in the coaching box and on the bench on match day because they can offird to do it then that does not mean than a Gold Coast should or a St Kilda should. They should operate within their means.
There is no proof in AFL football that having more people provides success, there is no proof that having your own reserves side provides success yet all clubs have just decided to follow everyone else and not once to look at whether or not they can afford to do it.
I have no doubt what so ever that if the Eagles had just a senior coach and 3 assistants that we would still sit where we sit, there is simply no need other than a want because other clubs do it that AFL clubs have these casts of thousands.

This has to be a priority from AFL head quarters going forward to tell their clubs to live by their means. They don’t need to be all the same.

One of the many excesses that charged into professional sport on the back of TV dollars, e.g salaries/bonuses at HQ.

 

[Kwality]

Not sure what model you think is best? I’m not sure what you want? The distribution money to be equal to all clubs? Then prize to the winners?

I was trying to simply demonstrate that not all distributions are the same.

A fair dinkum review is what I want, not 1980 as adjusted. What do I want, a national comp for the 2050s.

 

[Capriati]

Not sure what model you think is best? I’m not sure what you want? The distribution money to be equal to all clubs? Then prize to the winners?

Less Melbourne clubs. Many of which haven't pulled their weight in the AFL era.

 

[WilloTree]

Fitzroy had been struggling for decades...

What more could the AFL do to help them?

When the AFL was contemplating granting licenses for the Bears and Eagles in 1986, clubs voted and Brisbane got in easy.

Clubs were against a WA team entering the VFL as they were fearful we would become too big and powerful.

We were meant to pay our 4 million dollar licence fee off over a decade. Oakley told Fitzroy that they would get 1/12 of the licence fee an that would keep the doors open for at least another year.

That one vote is what got us admitted in to the competion, but there was a catch: We were given 30 days to come up with the 4 million.

All these years later, Fitzroy is no more, and we are the most successful club in the modern AFL era in terms of consistent success, not to mention the richest.

Isn't it funny how things work out?

Oh please. The Lions played finals in 86. I know that seems a long time ago but 'struggling for decades'? Nup

"When the AFL was contemplating granting licenses for the Bears and Eagles in 1986, clubs voted and Brisbane got in easy."

Not true. This was a difficult process which took hours of negotiation. For example, the original offer was for 1 WALFL ( and 1 SANFL) club to join the VFL. Claremont and Subiaco were the clubs in negotiation before the WAFCC got involved. This was in 1994/5. The West Coast Eagles were formed through Indian Pacific (Inc.) in 1985 to start in 1997.

"Clubs were against a WA team entering the VFL as they were fearful we would become too big and powerful."

Also, not true. The VFL (and WAFL) were going broke. The $5M License from Indian Pacific (later named The West Coast Eagles - working-party called the 'Perth Football CLub' and later 'The Perth Eagles'. One of the working parties had the WACA as the Perth FC home ground!) / WAFL club injected much needed funds into dying stadiums like Moorabin, windy Hill, Arden Street, Bruswick Street and VFL Park. Look at the footage from the 80s games at Windy Hill. It's not pretty.

"We were meant to pay our 4 million dollar licence fee off over a decade. Oakley told Fitzroy that they would get 1/12 of the licence fee an that would keep the doors open for at least another year."

I'm not sure where you got this information from. It's not true. Not even close. These type of lies and re-writing history is just plain wrong. It is absolute fiction. Tell whoever it is who is peddling this, that they weren't there like some of us, and they need to shut their mouth. He's embarrassing us all as Western Australians.

 

[Blackas87]

I was trying to simply demonstrate that not all distributions are the same.

A fair dinkum review is what I want, not 1980 as adjusted. What do I want, a national comp for the 2050s.

Describe a national comp?

Less Melbourne clubs. Many of which haven't pulled their weight in the AFL era.

Why less Melbourne clubs? Does it affect the viewership in Perth, is it keeping you up at night?

The AFL’s greatest asset, the one they are using to help out in this financial crisis for the league was paid off over 16 years by Victoria’s smallest clubs. Tell me how they aren’t pulling their weight.

 

[garlic munchers]

I am not happy at all with Carlton's part in the demise of the Northern Bullants, but to be honest, they would have folded years ago if it wasn't for our alignment

A tad of irony, combined with blissful ignorance in this statement.

Bit like all those VFL clubs that would have folded but for WC’s involvement in the VAFL?

WC supporters would likely be far more empathetic to the financial tribulations that some of the current Melbourne Clubs may find themselves, if they had been more supportive of a bit more fairness from VAFL house towards the interstate clubs.

Share the GF - AFL = no. Vic club supporters = well you knew the rules when you joined.

Let’s change those rules & lock the GF away at the MCG for even longer - AFL = good for footy. VCS = .

WC organise to buy games from willing weaker clubs to help them out - AFL = no. VCS = no, this would give them an unfair advantage.

WC & Freo with an already enormous travel load, request not to be sent to Tassie & QLD as much - AFL = just for asking we will send you there more. VCS = who said life was meant to be fair.

etc etc

 

[Dusty0004]

A tad of irony, combined with blissful ignorance in this statement.

Bit like all those VFL clubs that would have folded but for WCs involvement in the VAFL?

WC supporters would likely be far more empathetic to the financial tribulations that some of the current Melbourne Clubs may find themselves if they had been more supportive of a bit more fairness from VAFL house towards the interstate clubs.

Share the GF - AFL = no. Vic club supporters = well you knew the rules when you joined.

Let’s change those rules & lock the GF away at the MCG for even longer - AFL = good for footy. VCS = .

WC organise to buy games from willing weaker clubs to help them out - AFL = no. VCS = no, this would give them an unfair advantage.

WC & Freo with an already enormous travel load, request not to be sent to Tassie & QLD as much - AFL = just for asking we will send you there more. VCS = who said life was meant to be fair.

Oh look another post from a west Aussie claiming superiority and unfairness. Just * off if your not happy