Does Anyone else feel the same as me towards Palestine-Israel?

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ian_rocks

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Does anyone else have the same opinion as my on the Israel-Palestine polemic or am I by Myself?

The way I see it is totally different to everyone else. I see Israel as the agressor and Palestine and it's people as the victim. Now, I definately do NOT like Terrorism and see it as counter-productive to the Palestinian cause but Israel has killed 3 times as many civilians in it's attacks.

You may be thinking I am anti-semetic, but I am far from it, I am anti-Zionist and I believe there is as much Jewish claim to Israel as there is Romany (Gypsie) claim to Pakistan, their ancestral home. The claim that Israel is a Jewish state is also ludicrous seeing in the Torah it specifically says (just like it says Jews are to go to every corner of the world because there is no more Temple in Jerusalum) a Jewish State should not be set up until the Messiah comes and s/he will set it up without a single word being spoken or a hand being lifted.

When Israel was around in Biblical Times it was not known about by Egypt the strongest Empire although every tribe of palestine was (source: Noam Chomsky, Power and Prospects) indicating that Israel was a small district of under 30 000 in the Golan Heights.

In conclusion, I have not got enough time to continue my rantings about how evil Israel are and how their soldiers murder women and children at point blanc range so I will finish with: If you are christian do you support the oppression of Jesus' family, followers and disciples DIRECT descendants by the Israeli state?
 

fabulousphil

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Did you see SBS last night about the murder of a boy in palestine, was that a jewish conspiracy.
 

ian_rocks

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Yes I saw that, I have no idea who to believe on that matter. That was quite sad seeing that and those pictures are very disturbing to everyone.
 

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Frodo

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Whether Israel has a right to existence or not is debatable but the fact is that the United Nations created the State of Israel and unless we replace the UN with something better then society is best served by accepting it's decisions.
So Israel exists.
Now the rest of it I think of simplisticly. Israel is like my home. It legally belongs to me and no-one has a right to violate it. If someone claims my house as theirs then they need to prove it in court. What they can't do is to start lobbing handgrenades through my windows or any other sort of violence to try and force me out. If they do then I have the right to protect myself. Fortunately I have a police force to help me but with Isreal there is no police force so they have to protect themselves. I see no reason why they should not take whatever action they see as appropriate to protect their citizens in the same way as I would do to protect my family.
If Palestinans did not attack Israel with suicide bombs etc, then there would be no Israeli army presence outside of Israel. This shows that Israels action is purely retaliatory and understandable. The onus of stopping the carnage is on the aggressor, and that is Palestine who is financially backed by the arab league.
And I also find difficulty with understanding the morality of any society where a mother watches her child strap explosives to themselves and commits suicide and then takes money from the arab league in return.
 

skilts

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Originally posted by Frodo
Whether Israel has a right to existence or not is debatable but the fact is that the United Nations created the State of Israel and unless we replace the UN with something better then society is best served by accepting it's decisions.
So Israel exists.
Now the rest of it I think of simplisticly. Israel is like my home. It legally belongs to me and no-one has a right to violate it. If someone claims my house as theirs then they need to prove it in court. What they can't do is to start lobbing handgrenades through my windows or any other sort of violence to try and force me out. If they do then I have the right to protect myself. Fortunately I have a police force to help me but with Isreal there is no police force so they have to protect themselves. I see no reason why they should not take whatever action they see as appropriate to protect their citizens in the same way as I would do to protect my family.
If Palestinans did not attack Israel with suicide bombs etc, then there would be no Israeli army presence outside of Israel. This shows that Israels action is purely retaliatory and understandable. The onus of stopping the carnage is on the aggressor, and that is Palestine who is financially backed by the arab league.
And I also find difficulty with understanding the morality of any society where a mother watches her child strap explosives to themselves and commits suicide and then takes money from the arab league in return.

Frodo, have YOU ever had an original thought?
 
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Originally posted by ian_rocks

The way I see it is totally different to everyone else. I see Israel as the agressor and Palestine and it's people as the victim.

In my view, there's faults on both sides.

Originally posted by ian_rocks

Now, I definately do NOT like Terrorism and see it as counter-productive to the Palestinian cause but Israel has killed 3 times as many civilians in it's attacks.

Source? Since when?

Originally posted by ian_rocks
You may be thinking I am anti-semetic, but I am far from it, I am anti-Zionist and I believe there is as much Jewish claim to Israel as there is Romany (Gypsie) claim to Pakistan, their ancestral home.

Despite the widespread assumption that all Jews have lived outside of Palestine since the Diaspora, this is in fact not correct. Jews in varying numbers have lived in the area continually for the last 3,000 years.

Gypsies left north-western India and settled in Persia until about the early 13th century, whne the Mongols drove them further west and south. Unlike the Jews who have maintained important religious and historical links with Palestine over the last 2,000 years, I am unaware of any lingering Gypsy links with north-western India, in terms of a specific cultural, religious, historical or archaelogical nature. Therein lies the difference.

Originally posted by ian_rocks

The claim that Israel is a Jewish state is also ludicrous seeing in the Torah it specifically says (just like it says Jews are to go to every corner of the world because there is no more Temple in Jerusalum) a Jewish State should not be set up until the Messiah comes and s/he will set it up without a single word being spoken or a hand being lifted.

Whether or not the Torah says this or not, the fact remains that the population of the state of Israel consists mainly of those people who follow Judaism and are therefore Jews. The government consists of mostly if not wholly Jews and as a nation they observe Jewish customs and religious occasions. Therefore it can rightly be said to be a Jewish state.

Originally posted by ian_rocks

When Israel was around in Biblical Times it was not known about by Egypt the strongest Empire although every tribe of palestine was (source: Noam Chomsky, Power and Prospects) indicating that Israel was a small district of under 30 000 in the Golan Heights.

Yet Israel was known about by the Babylonians and the Assyrians, also powerful empires. The Black Obelisk of Assyria which has been dated about 825 BC specifically reads "the tribute of Jehu, son of Omri" referring to King Jehu of Israel (as in the Bible) and shows him humbly prostated before King Shalmensar III of Assyria. The Babylonians recorded Jerusalem being captured in 597 BC on the 'Babylonian Chronicle', a clay tablet which was first translated in 1956.

In fact Israel was known by Egypt. The King Shishak of the Bible is believed to be Pharoah Shoshenk I of the 22nd Dynasty. At Karnak there is a cartouche mentioning several Israelite cities including Gibeon, Mahanaim etc. and their conquest by Egypt.

At Thebes, there is an inscription where it states that Rameses II plundered the city of Shalem in his eighth year of reigning. Shalem has been idenfieid by prominent Egyptologists such as Rohm and K. A. Kitchen as being the same as Jerusalem. The Egyptians as evidenced by the Amarna Letters referred to the Israelites as Habiru living in Pa-Canaan. Another inscription at Thebes specifically uses the word "Israel" when it states "Israel is laid waste - its seed is no more."

Originally posted by ian_rocks

In conclusion, I have not got enough time to continue my rantings about how evil Israel are and how their soldiers murder women and children at point blanc range so I will finish with: If you are christian do you support the oppression of Jesus' family, followers and disciples DIRECT descendants by the Israeli state?

I was under the distinct impression Jesus' family, followers and disciples were largely of Jewish descent and spoke not only Hebrew but also the international language of the time Aramaic. I believe the modern day Palestinians are largely the descendants of Arabs who arrived from the 620's onwards, while there are also descents from the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Canaanites and also Hebrews.
 
Originally posted by Frodo
Israel is like my home. It legally belongs to me and no-one has a right to violate it. If someone claims my house as theirs then they need to prove it in court. What they can't do is to start lobbing handgrenades through my windows or any other sort of violence to try and force me out. If they do then I have the right to protect myself. Fortunately I have a police force to help me but with Isreal there is no police force so they have to protect themselves. I see no reason why they should not take whatever action they see as appropriate to protect their citizens in the same way as I would do to protect my family.
So presumably, if you then took over your neighbours house, illegally, you feel that you would be affronted if the neighbours, the recognised rightful owners, took drastic measures against you and your house in order to get their property back.

I suppose you also thought the French resistance was a terrorist organistion.

Sure, Israel has a right to exist, even the Palestinians acknowledge that, but they don't have a right to invade neighbouring countries. What the Palestinians want is a return to the the pre-1967 borders. Thats also what the UN has declared should happen.

Quite simply Palestinian has been invaded, so every luck to them in their struggle to get rid of an invading army, even if you don't like their tactics.

If all of your family has been killed by the invaders, you don't think about being nice to their murderers.
 

skilts

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I have a question: How is it possible to be racist against a religion? Just wondering.
 
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Originally posted by Roylion

Whether or not the Torah says this or not, the fact remains that the population of the state of Israel consists mainly of those people who follow Judaism and are therefore Jews.

This is the whole point Roylion. This whole damn thing is about religion and control of sites that are deemed of religious significance. The Israeli government is definetly the agreesor but the US will continue to support it because of the financial power held by the Jewish community. I believethat this whole thing is a problem a some people need to be replaced to settle it.

To sort this out both Arafat and Sharon need to be removed and the USA has to remain independent and is not allowed to comment on it. The USA should also be made to stop provide military support to Iseral that might help.

But Iseral and the Jewish community have no religious grounds to be there as the so called holy land is not to be occupied until the messiah comes. Also most of their religious history is a fraud, Kings David and Solomon didn't exist in the manner they claimed. There is not factual evidence that they ever existed and they were supposed to be powerful leaders.
 

Frodo

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Originally posted by Jim Boy

So presumably, if you then took over your neighbours house, illegally, you feel that you would be affronted if the neighbours, the recognised rightful owners, took drastic measures against you and your house in order to get their property back.

I suppose you also thought the French resistance was a terrorist organistion.

Sure, Israel has a right to exist, even the Palestinians acknowledge that, but they don't have a right to invade neighbouring countries. What the Palestinians want is a return to the the pre-1967 borders. Thats also what the UN has declared should happen.

Quite simply Palestinian has been invaded, so every luck to them in their struggle to get rid of an invading army, even if you don't like their tactics.

If all of your family has been killed by the invaders, you don't think about being nice to their murderers.

1) Israel is a legal entity
2) If I possessed anothers house illegally I would take non violent steps to get it back.
3) The french resistance was certainly terorist. They terrorised the Germans extremeley successfuly. My Grandfather was in the Belgian resistance in both world wars an attested to this.
4) Examine the date 1967 and what happened. That should answer your question.
5) The invaders were and are the Palestinians. Occupation was an aftermath to prevent a repitition.
6) If my whole family were killed I could never condone the suicide bombing of innocent women and children. Attrition against military targets, maybe.
 

ian_rocks

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I'm going to use some interesting facts now...
1- for 1,300 years Middle Easern jews have lived under muslim rule. until modern times, there were remarkably few incidents of religious conflict. most clashes after zionism made its presence felt in the middle east in the twentieth century.

2- the zionists adopted a systematic campaign of terrorizing palestinians to induce them to flee and, when and if that failed, simply forced them form their homes and into exile at gunpoing.

3- the massacre of more than 250 villagers at Deir Yassin, on April 9, 1948, by the jewish underground groups known as the Irgun Zvai Leumi, led by Menachem Begin, and the Lohamei Herut Yisrael (LEHI, or Stern Gang)...was intended to stike terror into the palestinian population and frighten the people into leaving.

3- israel turned down successive proposals made by arab states and by neutral mediators that might have brought about an accommodation. it did so because it did not want to make territorial concessions, to allow creation of a palestinian state.

4- israel is based on racial discrimination; Sephardim(eastern jews) are discriminated against by Ashkenazim(western jews) who constiuted the elite of virtually all political and state structures until recently.

5- jewish domination on jerusalem was ... a top priority. it was accomplished by destroying the Maghribi arab quarter of the Old City and replacing it with new accommodation for jews and by establishing settlements on the surrounding hills.

6- because of the very different demographic balance that obtained in the occupied territories,... israeli policies intended to subordinate the arab population of the occupied territories had to be much more severe than those used in israe (demolition of houses, wanton disregard for civil rights, imprisonment without trial, torture, deportaion, and political killings).

7- in 1990, the 1.1 million palestinians in the west bank received 119 cubic meters of water per person, compared to 345 cubic meters provided to each of the 110,000 israeli settlers.

8- although repression of palestinians in the occupied territories prior to december 1987, when the intifada commenced, was harsh, it became truly draconian after that time... the world community, including israel's closest allies, unanimously condemned israel's repressive measures. in the first two years of the intifada(the 1st intifada), 159 children under age sixteen, with an average age of ten, were killed by israeli soldiers.

10- the pro-israeli lobby had established what appears to be an unassailable power base in Congress... as the pro-israeli lobby's leverage in congress has increased, so has its influence within the executive branch grown.

11- whereas prior to 1985 most of [the american] assistance was in the form of loans, after that time 100 percent of the funds have been grants that never have to be repaid.

12- in 1990, the united states responded to increased jewish immigration to israel from the soviet union by providing $400 million in loan guarantees.

13- congress has transfered to israel, one of the world's smallest nations, more of america's treasury than any country at any time in history has ever voluntarily donated to a foreign country.

14- IN 1983, CONGRESS PASSED A LAW THAT REQUIRES THE UNITED STATES TO RENOUNCE ITS MEMBERSHIP IN THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY IF ISRAEL WERE TO BE EXPELLED FROM THAT BODY.

15- SINCE THE END OF THE COLD WAR, THE UNITED STATES HAS USED IT VETO IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL THREE TIMES, ALL OF WHICH HAVE BEEN TO SUPPORT ISRAEL'S UNILATERAL ACTIONS IN JERUSALEM.

16- israel and the united states vote together more frequently in the united nations general assembly than does the united states with almost any other country.

17- settlers (one-half of 1 percent of the population) on average have 2.6 acres per person of land in Gaza, while palestinians have 0.006 acre each.
 

London Dave

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Ya wasting your breath Ian...the holders of pro Israeli views will never accept that increasing military 'excursions' leads to an increase in violence...Bush's speech of a week or so ago will do nothing other than increase the popularity of Hamas and groups like it...Israel is backed by very powerful people/pressure groups in the US, expecting the US to play the fair cop in this situation is fanciful. Each of the points you raised will be 'proved' false etc etc...having travelled a bit through these parts, about 5 years ago, all I can say is if you treat people like criminals, they become them. No sympathy to the Israelis from me.
 

skilts

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Why should we be forced into supporting one side or the other? I reckon they're both ****heads and barbarians. Or is that racist?
 

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Originally posted by Slax


This is the whole point Roylion. This whole damn thing is about religion and control of sites that are deemed of religious significance. The Israeli government is definetly the agreesor but the US will continue to support it because of the financial power held by the Jewish community. I believethat this whole thing is a problem a some people need to be replaced to settle it.

Much of the Israeli-Palestinian issue is about Israel's right to exist, but yes the religious issue is also important. Some might argue that while Israel may be the aggressor presently, they have been attacked four times by neighbouring countries since 1948.

Originally posted by Slax

To sort this out both Arafat and Sharon need to be removed

Only the Israeli people can remove Sharon and the only PLO can remove Arafat. Actually I regard Arafat more of a moderate that Sharon.

Originally posted by Slax

..and the USA has to remain independent and is not allowed to comment on it. The USA should also be made to stop provide military support to Iseral that might help.

As others have pointed out, that is unlikely to happen because of Jweish interests in the US.

Originally posted by Slax
But Iseral and the Jewish community have no religious grounds to be there as the so called holy land is not to be occupied until the messiah comes.

I assume you are referring to passages in the Books of Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Isaiah. What those passages say is that the messiah will gather all Jews to Israel, build the Third Temple and usher in a new age of peace. Some Jews believe this process has already started.

The Jews do have have an important stake in the Holy Land, just as the Christians and Muslims do. They believe that Jerusalem in the navel of the world, where creation began and where many of their greatest historical and religious figures are believed to have lived.

Originally posted by Slax

Also most of their religious history is a fraud, Kings David and Solomon didn't exist in the manner they claimed. There is not factual evidence that they ever existed and they were supposed to be powerful leaders.

The evidence that they existed far outweighs the evidence that they didn't. How do we know Jesus Christ existed?

The El Amarna Letters which consist of over 380 tablets dated to the time of the Pharoah Akhenaten and are written in Akkadian consist largely of letters that were written from various rulers inthe north-east of Egypt to the Pharoah around that time. Palestine around this time is described in some detail and archeologists, linguists, beleive that several figures mentioned in the bible are to be identified with people mentioned in these letters.

There are also several striking parallels between events mentioned in these letters and events from around the time of King Saul, King David and King Solomon.

For example the letters describe the political situation in Palestine at thte time, such as the coastal plain of Palestine which had five city states led by the King of Gath (also mentioned in the Book of Samuel. The city of Gezer is owned by the native Canannaties, (also mentioned in the Bible).

There is an individual called Labayu and the eventsof his life, correspond quite closely to that of Saul in the Bible. To give you an example from the letters, Labayu writes "I did not know my son was consorting with the Habiru. ", which is an interesting parallel with the story of Jonathan, who consorts with the rebel chieftain David. The letters also talk about Labayu being struck down by his own people and a western coalition of Philistines, which is what happened to Saul in the Bible. There are other parallels, but hopefully you see what I mean.

In the Amarna letters the name of the King of Gath is Shuwardata, which has been translated as "the sun has given". In the Bible the King of Gath is identified as Achish, which linguist Peter van der Veen has suggested is the same as Aki-Shimage (Shimige has given). Shimige was the Canaanite god of the Sun. Therefore Achish means "the sun has given"

David is also believed to be identified in the Amarna letters. In Hebrew form the name David is written 'Dwd', which in Egyptian is written Twtw (pronounced Dadu). David means "beloved of Yahweh" or Dudiyah, which is the exact equivalent of Dadu. A Dadua is recognised in the Amarna letters as the ruler of Hebron.

Other figures that the Amarna letters are believed to identify include Ishbaal (the son of Saul), one of the writers of the Amarna letters, who refers to Joab, Jesse, Baanah, and David all mentioned in the Bible.

That's just some of the evidence.
 

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