Analysis Does Derek Get a Pass Mark?

[popin]

Considering indigenous Australians are actually over-represented in the AFL based on their % of the population, I would've thought the real issue would be the complete lack of female involvement in the football department considering they make up a staggering 50% of the population (and actually slightly more in Australia I believe).

Based on the views in this thread, it's time to sack Buckley and Burns and replace them with females, regardless of whether they are better coaches.

Was that an attempt of trying to be funny BlazeKappO

 

[Kappa]

Was that an attempt of trying to be funny BlazeKappO

If I was trying to amuse you Popin I'd post big shiny pictures full of puns

 

[Anzacday]

He was indigenous.

I venture to say he still is, (at a guess).

 

[popin]

If I was trying to amuse you Popin I'd post big shiny pictures full of puns

So it was ha, great effort bud keep it up

 

[Stoods]

Probably to early to tell for mine, but i do have a good feeling about this bunch.

 

[mike123]

He was indigenous.

Looking it up some Melbourne supporters were quite sure he wasn't. And I've never seen him on the indigenous players list.

 

[Apex36]

Yep, marty Clarke. My point was that it was suns not giants....Might be wrong though although I rarely am!

99.9% sure that Clark and Elliott were pre listed by GWS who we traded with in 2011 for them. We traded for Krak, Ceglar and Yahmoor with the Suns in 2010.

 

[Smoky]

Well said popin. Whilst I wish all our selections well another draft goes by without an Indigenous player selected. We must have the lowest representation in the AFL and IMO it is not good enough.

Have you considered that recruiting some Indigenous players might actually make our club better? Seems to work at other clubs.

I just think it is an area we need to address. Other clubs appear to be doing a better job of it.

A better job of drafting Indigenous players that make them a better club?

Isn't it just about recruiting the best players that make you a better club? If they're Indigenous... African... Irish... American... Chinese... Anglo Saxon... they are the best we can get... Then that's great.

I think our club needs to have a strategy for increasing our level of Indigenous talent. I certainly don't advocate becoming a charity. If we can attract elite Indigenous players it will strengthen the club. I believe we will only have one Indigenous player on our list which in my view is too low.

How many Indigenous players is the right amount to be a better playing list? How many Americans? How many Anglo Saxons? How many Chinese?

I thought it was getting the best mix of player types... not cultural types that make the best playing list. Individuals make up the team... their cultures come with that too. But you do not choose a player because of their culture or background you choose them because they are the best player you can get for the allotted sale price (or in this case draft pick)

Indigenous talent from remote communities is certainly an area where clubs could focus more time on. It would take a lot of organising and support but the benefits for both the club and Aboriginal communities could be massive. I have said this before but I believe the AFL should give clubs two additional category B rookie spots for remote communities.

Ok... so now you're not talking about B Grade rookieing Indigenous players. You are talking about taking Indigenous players from remote communities and nurturing them into the AFL system. As we are so far behind on this to the other clubs, can you show me how so many of them do this better than us?

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't we the club that did exactly that with Liam Jurrah? What have the other clubs done that makes us so far behind them on this.

For the 100th time, IMO the club could improve the list by putting in place a strategy for targeting more Indigenous players. It is not about choosing a player just because they are Indigenous. It is about finding Indigenous players who have the talent we need, i.e. The best available players. Many Indigenous players have a unique skill set that we seem to lack on our list.

This response was to my post that you had already responded to with the previous quote...

Kinda weird to respond to the same quote twice and the second time start with "For the hundredth time"!


Celebrate Indigenous players - Yes

Celebrate Indigenous Culture - Hell Yes

Support Indigenous Communities Programs - Absolutely

Encourage, support and enhance AFL in Aboriginal remote communities - Tick


Derek Hine Failed because he didn't draft an Aboriginal in the draft - That's crazy

We don't have enough Indigenous players on our list and because of this our on field performance is worse off - Na man, sorry.



I love your passion for the topic. I really do. And as I said earlier I have worked within Indigenous projects for over 10 years... As I have worked in Redfern for this entire time. If you want to get involved. Do it. It's massively rewarding. In all seriousness if you want to donate a bit of your time to it in Melbourne I can pm you some contacts. You have the passion and will get so much out of it personally. But drafting players on colour alone is not a good idea at all and most definitely does not promote equality. Which is all - we all want.

 

[Apex36]

We have one Aboriginal player on the list and have not drafted an 18 year old in some time. On the surface it appears that our recruiters prefer other types of player. Perhaps over the next few seasons it might be a good idea to change that.

That looks distinctly like you're saying our recruiters are racist, which is unadulterated tripe. Their job is to pick the best talent available, not pick players based on their skin colour to fill some kind of bullshit quota because people are worried the club might not look PC without enough indigenous talent on the books.

If the club deems that the best available talent in a draft is an indigenous player, they'll select him. If not, tough shit. Frankly, I can't think of anything more racist than recruiting individuals based on the colour of their skin or their ancestry, and it's amazing that people still operate that way. Being indigenous is not a credential, nor is being white, or Asian or any other ethnicity.

 

[MyManLynch]

I venture to say he still is, (at a guess).

That's amazing.

 

[Anzacday]

That's amazing.

It's only a guess though

 

[MyManLynch]

99.9% sure that Clark and Elliott were pre listed by GWS who we traded with in 2011 for them. We traded for Krak, Ceglar and Yahmoor with the Suns in 2010.

 

[Apex36]

View attachment 195758

Hahahah, Jesus Christ, pick 25 for Elliott alone seems ridiculous now, let alone having Clarke and pick 67 thrown in too

 

[35Daicos]

He was indigenous.

Simon Buckley's name has never appeared on any official AFL list of indigenous players (to the best of my knowledge).

 

[MyManLynch]

Simon Buckley's name has never appeared on any official AFL list of indigenous players (to the best of my knowledge).

You may be right...can't find him on any list.
Maybe I confused him for Corrie?

 

[Bard]

Looking it up some Melbourne supporters were quite sure he wasn't. And I've never seen him on the indigenous players list.

Are you sure? I'm almost positive... Hmm.

 

[35Daicos]

You may be right...can't find him on any list.
Maybe I confused him for Corrie?

Are you sure? I'm almost positive... Hmm.

Definitely not indigenous, Corrie is.

http://www.aflcommunityclub.com.au/index.php?id=791

There's a list here ^ that is meant to have all the past indigenous players' names, it does need a bit of updating as Norm Le Brun and Norm Byron have in recent times been found to not have been indigenous.

The annual AFL Record Season Guide lists all current and former indigenous players, I have bought a copy of that book every year since it started coming out, and I'm quite sure Buckley's name has never appeared on that list.

 

[jmac70]

A better job of drafting Indigenous players that make them a better club?

Isn't it just about recruiting the best players that make you a better club? If they're Indigenous... African... Irish... American... Chinese... Anglo Saxon... they are the best we can get... Then that's great.



How many Indigenous players is the right amount to be a better playing list? How many Americans? How many Anglo Saxons? How many Chinese?

I thought it was getting the best mix of player types... not cultural types that make the best playing list. Individuals make up the team... their cultures come with that too. But you do not choose a player because of their culture or background you choose them because they are the best player you can get for the allotted sale price (or in this case draft pick)



Ok... so now you're not talking about B Grade rookieing Indigenous players. You are talking about taking Indigenous players from remote communities and nurturing them into the AFL system. As we are so far behind on this to the other clubs, can you show me how so many of them do this better than us?

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't we the club that did exactly that with Liam Jurrah? What have the other clubs done that makes us so far behind them on this.




This response was to my post that you had already responded to with the previous quote...

Kinda weird to respond to the same quote twice and the second time start with "For the hundredth time"!


Celebrate Indigenous players - Yes

Celebrate Indigenous Culture - Hell Yes

Support Indigenous Communities Programs - Absolutely

Encourage, support and enhance AFL in Aboriginal remote communities - Tick


Derek Hine Failed because he didn't draft an Aboriginal in the draft - That's crazy

We don't have enough Indigenous players on our list and because of this our on field performance is worse off - Na man, sorry.



I love your passion for the topic. I really do. And as I said earlier I have worked within Indigenous projects for over 10 years... As I have worked in Redfern for this entire time. If you want to get involved. Do it. It's massively rewarding. In all seriousness if you want to donate a bit of your time to it in Melbourne I can pm you some contacts. You have the passion and will get so much out of it personally. But drafting players on colour alone is not a good idea at all and most definitely does not promote equality. Which is all - we all want.

I'm not sure what else I can really say to you. My view is that our Indigenous representation could be improved. It doesn't have to be at the expense of any other player or be applied to one particular draft. I see it as a strategic direction over a number of years and very much aimed at making the list better. My idea about category B rookies was meant in terms of the whole competition. Let's leave it at that hey.

 

[jmac70]

That looks distinctly like you're saying our recruiters are racist, which is unadulterated tripe. Their job is to pick the best talent available, not pick players based on their skin colour to fill some kind of bullshit quota because people are worried the club might not look PC without enough indigenous talent on the books.

If the club deems that the best available talent in a draft is an indigenous player, they'll select him. If not, tough shit. Frankly, I can't think of anything more racist than recruiting individuals based on the colour of their skin or their ancestry, and it's amazing that people still operate that way. Being indigenous is not a credential, nor is being white, or Asian or any other ethnicity.

I am not saying they are racist at all. As usual Apex you take a small detail and use it to come up with something completely wrong. You really shit me sometimes.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

99.9% sure that Clark and Elliott were pre listed by GWS who we traded with in 2011 for them. We traded for Krak, Ceglar and Yahmoor with the Suns in 2010.

But...but....but...I'm never wrong!

 

[sr36]

That's also the same issue when drafting them.

Obviously. I just think that it would be preferable to have these 16 year old guys in an academy within the communities. Bringing a structured program into the community would be more beneficial than simply cherry picking a large number of talented hard working 15/16 year olds and taking them out of the communities.

 

[Cyclops]

Does Hine get a pass mark? Well our first pick is in the second round so if we get 2 x 100 game players or 1 x 200 game players then he's worked his magic. I think we'll have a hint in two years but no way top tell until 2025.

I feel like he's better at spotting roughies than super duper trades. That said he had a solid trade period, paying odds for quality, and he hasn't messed up top 20 pick to my knowledge.

Would love my nephew to be drafted to Collingwood, beaut kid with indigenous and European ancestors. He fits some aboriginal "stereotypes": he's a quiet kid, very family oriented, and he's got good eyesight.

He's good and footy and he loves it, only problem is he barracks for Geelong.

 

[MyManLynch]

Definitely not indigenous, Corrie is.

http://www.aflcommunityclub.com.au/index.php?id=791

There's a list here ^ that is meant to have all the past indigenous players' names, it does need a bit of updating as Norm Le Brun and Norm Byron have in recent times been found to not have been indigenous.

The annual AFL Record Season Guide lists all current and former indigenous players, I have bought a copy of that book every year since it started coming out, and I'm quite sure Buckley's name has never appeared on that list.

I ran thru that list quickly past & present, total number per club:

27 West Coast
27 Fremantle
24 Essendon
23 Melbourne
23 North Melbourne
19 Brisbane
19 Port Adelaide
19 South Melb/Sydney
18 Richmond
18 St Kilda
15 Bulldogs
14 Carlton
14 Hawthorn
13 Adelaide
13 Collingwood
13 Fitzroy
9 Geelong
9 Gold Coast
8 GWS

Geelong had 5 listed for 2015 & only 4 past players (as part of their 9)

 

[sr36]

I am not saying they are racist at all. As usual Apex you take a small detail and use it to come up with something completely wrong. You really shit me sometimes.

It would be very easy for a degree of racial bias to creep into a recruiters judgement. In fact it may even be difficult for it not to. In the modern recruiting world, recruiters place a large emphasis on a player's talent being matched with the ability to conform to the rigourous systems and structures of the AFL system. The harsh and unfortunate reality is that anyone who has worked with Indigenous Youth will tell you, a lower percentage of Indigenous Youth would be able to prosper when removed from their support group and placed into a differnet town and this level of discipline. For this reason I imagine that many recruiters are being prejudicial and are more wary of an Indigenous kids ability to cope.

 

[jmac70]

It would be very easy for a degree of racial bias to creep into a recruiters judgement. In fact it may even be difficult for it not to. In the modern recruiting world, recruiters place a large emphasis on a player's talent being matched with the ability to conform to the rigourous systems and structures of the AFL system. The harsh and unfortunate reality is that anyone who has worked with Indigenous Youth will tell you, a lower percentage of Indigenous Youth would be able to prosper when removed from their support group and placed into a differnet town and this level of discipline. For this reason I imagine that many recruiters are being prejudicial and are more wary of an Indigenous kids ability to cope.

You are probably right. For some Indigenous players it is a very difficult transition.