Discussion Does our club's current footy dept have a problem with aboriginal players?

[austinnn]

Groan.

I really hesitate to make this thread because it's so taboo and so easy for semantics and emotion to derail what could be a straight forward discussion.

I'll preface with the significant part of my own post from another thread:

The bottom line for me is that the Saints seem to still be averse to taking risks on these players who could be greats, and that's a shame considering some of history's best or most successful aboriginal players have played for us in the past.

I would have loved to have drafted Liam Ryan for example after StCicatriz pumped his tires so generously, but I knew we'd never do it. Perhaps we can't afford the flight risk which is fine. There is no reason why an aboriginal player should be better than any other, and I really don't want to use words like 'magic' etc, so I won't make a huge deal over it, but I do hope we haven't got an exclusion policy at our club, either overtly or subconsciously. In fact we've gone in the diametrically opposite direction drafting two Irish boys who make a glass of milk look grey.

I think the last full-blooded aboriginal player we had on our books was Ross Tungatalum from the Tiwi Islands, who funnily enough was in the news with us recently, (see previous page of thread).

So that's my opinion, and I have to admit I get a little jealous when I see other clubs with so many really good aboriginal players and what appears to be a good set up for supporting them.

Ben Long, Jade Gresham, Koby Stevens. Do we have anyone else on our list that identifies as aboriginal? Don't you find it strange, law of averages and all that?

Like I said, it shouldn't matter, I'm happy if we got the best players we could but compared to other clubs it seems strange that we are one of the few clubs who feel that none of the full blooded aboriginal players from the last 5 or so years (as opposed to a player who's grown up in a white Australian community and who has some aboriginal blood) are the best option for us.

Anyway, I thought it worthy of at least asking your opinion to satisfy my curiosity. Sorry to cause trouble.


http://m.afl.com.au/news/2017-11-29/im-more-settled-than-at-gold-coast-new-blue-garlett

Another player I saw and thought that we wouldn't have taken a chance on.

 

[saintberra]

This, again, may be a controversial view -

To assume that we didn't select an individual based on race, in and of itself, is a racist comment. There's a lot of psychological studies that have been done regarding unconscious bias, however, to assume that all aboriginal players are good purely based on their skin tone, is racist. Across all nationalities, backgrounds, cultures there have been players that have succeeded and players that have been busts. Each team has had their share of each, that's a matter of fact - Winmar A was good, Winmar B was not so good. Long A was good, who knows about Long B.

Just because we didn't choose an aboriginal player at a certain pick doesn't mean we're scared of them. They might just not suit our needs. To assume otherwise, again, could be classified as a racist insight.

When I look at Liam Ryan's stats, for example, I couldn't give a flying toss that we didn't take him on. Most of the individuals pumping him up are those that are in his more direct vicinity - more exposure, more chance of you picking out things that you want to see in people (to conform to your perception, protecting your ego). I think Bruce is a god, but that's because I played with him. Consequently, I sit him on a pedestal - higher than reality would suggest.

When a draft selection comes along, I will always expect the club to choose the individual based on best fit & skill.

I don't think I really answered your OP, but at least it breaks the ice.

 

[SaintJunior]

Given that we have selected Gresham and Long with our first pick in the two previous drafts to this year then I am thinking not.

 

[austinnn]

This, again, may be a controversial view -

To assume that we didn't select an individual based on race, in and of itself, is a racist comment. There's a lot of psychological studies that have been done regarding unconscious bias, however, to assume that all aboriginal players are good purely based on their skin tone, is racist. Across all nationalities, backgrounds, cultures there have been players that have succeeded and players that have been busts. Each team has had their share of each, that's a matter of fact - Winmar A was good, Winmar B was not so good. Long A was good, who knows about Long B.

Just because we didn't choose an aboriginal player at a certain pick doesn't mean we're scared of them. They might just not suit our needs. To assume otherwise, again, could be classified as a racist insight.

When I look at Liam Ryan's stats, for example, I couldn't give a flying toss that we didn't take him on. Most of the individuals pumping him up are those that are in his more direct vicinity - more exposure, more chance of you picking out things that you want to see in people (to conform to your perception, protecting your ego). I think Bruce is a god, but that's because I played with him. Consequently, I sit him on a pedestal - higher than reality would suggest.

When a draft selection comes along, I will always expect the club to choose the individual based on best fit & skill.

I don't think I really answered your OP, but at least it breaks the ice.

I know. I do agree that favouring a player for being aboriginal is just as discriminatory as favouring them for not being aboriginal. I just think it's a bit weird that we have fewer than average on our books right now. I wondered if there was a reason or just a total accident.

Edit: at least things are better now than they were 2 years ago.

http://www.sportingnews.com/au/afl/...-indigenous-players/1emdihfqdczn8z7hvh2bzezfa

 

[Grav]

Could be a lot of reasons, especially now with the so called “ “ academy zones.
Maybe borderbarry can give us a better idea, below is a post that he started in July.
Looking at that list, how many would be who we needed at the picks we had?
Be interesting going through this list and see if we could have used any, is there a future Cyril, Eddie or Lance among them?
Personally I would love to see more indigenous boys on our list as they ooze confidence & are excitement machines.

Indigenous players for the 2017 draft.

It is time I started this thread for 2017 being Naidoc week and all. Help me out if you know of any I have missed, because there does not seem to be a lot around this year.


Joel Garner, 18yrs, Vic. 183 cm. 81 kg. Balanced Mid.

Zac Bailey. " " N.T. 180 " 68 " Mid.

Dominic Grant. " " " 189 " 77 " Mid.

Jake Patmore " " W.A. 182 " 79 " Small Def.

Ethan Penrith. " " Vic. 179 " Small Def/Mid

Adam Sambono 20yrs. N.T. 188" 65" Small Fwd

Tyrone Hayes. 18 " Vic. 175" Small Def.

Xavier Cubillo. 18 " N.T. 179. 76"

Tim Kelly. 22" W.A. 183cm Small Fwd. Mid.

Ian Milera 20" S,A. 171" Small Fwd

Aiden Domic. 18" Vic. 185 Outside Mid.

David Smith 17 yrs Vic 180. 72 Outside mid.

Liam Ryan 20 " W.A. 184. 76kg Small Fwd.

 

[bird_man]

I just don’t think there were any that were available at our picks his year that were better then the guys we took. I think that’s all it comes down to.

The last two years we have used our first draft picks on indigenous kids, one was even considered quite a reach.

 

[CursingFijian]

Again, this might be an unpopular view but this subject needs to be discussed with the back drop of Matt Rendell’s comments a couple of years ago. The one he got sacked for, where he said something like clubs are inclined not to recruit aboriginal players because they don’t have the communication and learning skills to thrive within modern AFL clubs.

And if rural aboriginal kids struggle to cultivate those skills because of the environment in which they exist then there will be fewer aboriginal players represented in the draft to start with.

So the question needs to be asked do clubs have an ‘obligation’ to recruit aboriginal players or to have a ‘quota’ of aboriginal players on their lists. Should the AFL create another rookie category? Or perhaps introduce financial incentives for recruiting aboriginal players.

It’s a sticky subject for sure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[bird_man]

Again, this might be an unpopular view but this subject needs to be discussed with the back drop of Matt Rendell’s comments a couple of years ago. The one he got sacked for, where he said something like clubs are inclined not to recruit aboriginal players because they don’t have the communication and learning skills to thrive within modern AFL clubs.

And if rural aboriginal kids struggle to cultivate those skills because of the environment in which they exist then there will be fewer aboriginal players represented in the draft to start with.

So the question needs to be asked do clubs have an ‘obligation’ to recruit aboriginal players or to have a ‘quota’ of aboriginal players on their lists. Should the AFL create another rookie category? Or perhaps introduce financial incentives for recruiting aboriginal players.

It’s a sticky subject for sure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

A quota would be the worst thing we could do IMO. I think a similar thing was done with South African cricket and it was not good for the game. It means player are getting games ahead of players that deserve it. Also, don’t all clubs have a rookie system for certain indigenous players now? I think that idea is a really good one if not, because it means that others aren’t missing out to cater for it.

I don’t remember the Rendell incident that well but reading a few comments yesterday, he clearly has a point that it is a lot harder bringing in indigenous kids, especially from indigenous communities.

I think the AFL has always and is still doing a great job dealing with this though, but it’s always a discussion worth having.

So the question should be how can we improve the problem instead of just avoiding it by not drafting them. And that’s one I hope Rendell thinks about, instead of just not drafting them.

From a St Kilda point of view though, as I said in an earlier post. It’s hard to say it’s an issue when we haven’t in my recollection passed on any quality indigenous kids to take someone else. I just think we’ve taken the best available at the time.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Tripe. A browse through other lists suggests we’re midfield for indigenous numbers.

 

[lewdogs]

Groan.

I really hesitate to make this thread because it's so taboo and so easy for semantics and emotion to derail what could be a straight forward discussion.

I'll preface with the significant part of my own post from another thread:





So that's my opinion, and I have to admit I get a little jealous when I see other clubs with so many really good aboriginal players and what appears to be a good set up for supporting them.

Ben Long, Jade Gresham, Koby Stevens. Do we have anyone else on our list that identifies as aboriginal? Don't you find it strange, law of averages and all that?

Like I said, it shouldn't matter, I'm happy if we got the best players we could but compared to other clubs it seems strange that we are one of the few clubs who feel that none of the full blooded aboriginal players from the last 5 or so years (as opposed to a player who's grown up in a white Australian community and who has some aboriginal blood) are the best option for us.

Anyway, I thought it worthy of at least asking your opinion to satisfy my curiosity. Sorry to cause trouble.


http://m.afl.com.au/news/2017-11-29/im-more-settled-than-at-gold-coast-new-blue-garlett

Another player I saw and thought that we wouldn't have taken a chance on.

Very strange timing for the thread. Your Liam Ryan argument is complete conjecture - he was never in the mix for pick 7 and 8 and he was gone by our next pick, so you actually have no idea if we would have taken him or not. You're just guessing.

Last year we picked Ben Long, a young Aboriginal man from Darwin who was a surprise early selection. This year the club leadership group went to the NT with Ben to begin their pre-season training.

Two years ago we picked up Jade Gresham, a young Aboriginal man from Victoria who was the first ever indigenous captain of the Knights. He and his mother designed our indigenous guernsey this year.

Your argument that we haven't picked any 'full-blooded' Aboriginal players is odd. It is a very old-fashioned way of looking at race.

Three years ago we didn't have any indigenous players on our list, so the thread may have been warranted. But I would suggest looking at reality, we have no aversion to Aboriginal players at all.

 

[Brains Trust66]

I would say that our history of aboriginal players shows that our club will take them if the club thinks they are the best player for the spot we want to fill . For a long time we chose players like Winmar long before it was seen as ok to draft them . That was why Winmar for example copped so much abuse at Collingwood because no way would they have drafted an aboriginal at the time while we were happily getting them.

It’s hard when you have pick 7&8 then no pick till mid 30s . There were a lot of players who we will never know if they would have been chosen if we had another pick .

 

[gringo2011]

Hope not, St Kilda might have an inglorious history but one of the pivotal moments in Australian culture not just football culture was the Winmar moment. It changed the way people treated our indigenous brothers in real life and set the AFL on a path to tackling racism and cultural change.

 

[austinnn]

Very strange timing for the thread. Your Liam Ryan argument is complete conjecture - he was never in the mix for pick 7 and 8 and he was gone by our next pick, so you actually have no idea if we would have taken him or not. You're just guessing.

Last year we picked Ben Long, a young Aboriginal man from Darwin who was a surprise early selection. This year the club leadership group went to the NT with Ben to begin their pre-season training.

Two years ago we picked up Jade Gresham, a young Aboriginal man from Victoria who was the first ever indigenous captain of the Knights. He and his mother designed our indigenous guernsey this year.

Your argument that we haven't picked any 'full-blooded' Aboriginal players is odd. It is a very old-fashioned way of looking at race.

Three years ago we didn't have any indigenous players on our list, so the thread may have been warranted. But I would suggest looking at reality, we have no aversion to Aboriginal players at all.

So to be clear:

I apologise for the old fashioned distinction. I suppose in my mind there is a difference between a player who is mixed race and who grew up with mostly white mates in a large city and who most people wouldn't even know was aboriginal if you didn't tell them, and a player who is obviously aboriginal and grew up in surrounded by other other aboriginal people in a community very different from the south eastern suburbs of Melbourne. I'm pretty sure that's what Rendell was referring to a few years back when he said that "you might find clubs recruiting aboriginal players with one white parent". It might be that such a distinction is old fashioned but does it exist in the minds of our recruiters and football department is what I'm interested in. If Ben Long had looked more like Michael Long (not the 2017 version, he would have a bit of strife walking briskly without sweating) would we have taken him? A distasteful question? Probably.

I'm not focusing specifically on this year but this current football dept's term. I guess I'm thinking that the last player we had in our first team who fit the above criteria was Raph Clarke.

The claim that it is complete conjecture about Liam Ryan is fine. I was just using him as an example. The claim that we didn't have the picks isn't something I totally disagree with either, but we've had a good spread of picks over the last few years.

Another claim was that we're about mid-ranked currently is interesting. I'd like to see the details of that statistic. But I'm interested in the idea that despite our proud history, the current version of the club doesn't have much connection with aboriginal culture compared not only to obvious clubs in WA and SA but even Melbourne clubs like Carlton.

I'm trying to be honest and respectful, which means being fairly long winded. Sorry for that.

 

[gringo2011]

So to be clear:

I apologise for the old fashioned distinction. I suppose in my mind there is a difference between a player who is mixed race and who grew up with mostly white mates in a large city and who most people wouldn't even know was aboriginal if you didn't tell them, and a player who is obviously aboriginal and grew up in surrounded by other other aboriginal people in a community very different from the south eastern suburbs of Melbourne. I'm pretty sure that's what Rendell was referring to a few years back when he said that "you might find clubs recruiting aboriginal players with one white parent". It might be that such a distinction is old fashioned but does it exist in the minds of our recruiters and football department is what I'm interested in. If Ben Long had looked more like Michael Long (not the 2017 version, he would have a bit of strife walking briskly without sweating) would we have taken him? A distasteful question? Probably.

I'm not focusing specifically on this year but this current football dept's term. I guess I'm thinking that the last player we had in our first team who fit the above criteria was Raph Clarke.

The claim that it is complete conjecture about Liam Ryan is fine. I was just using him as an example. The claim that we didn't have the picks isn't something I totally disagree with either, but we've had a good spread of picks over the last few years.

Another claim was that we're about mid-ranked currently is interesting. I'd like to see the details of that statistic. But I'm interested in the idea that despite our proud history, the current version of the club doesn't have much connection with aboriginal culture compared not only to obvious clubs in WA and SA but even Melbourne clubs like Carlton.

I'm trying to be honest and respectful, which means being fairly long winded. Sorry for that.

I think Terry Milera was straight out Indigenous Aussie.

 

[majortinkle]

So to be clear:

I apologise for the old fashioned distinction. I suppose in my mind there is a difference between a player who is mixed race and who grew up with mostly white mates in a large city and who most people wouldn't even know was aboriginal if you didn't tell them, and a player who is obviously aboriginal and grew up in surrounded by other other aboriginal people in a community very different from the south eastern suburbs of Melbourne. I'm pretty sure that's what Rendell was referring to a few years back when he said that "you might find clubs recruiting aboriginal players with one white parent". It might be that such a distinction is old fashioned but does it exist in the minds of our recruiters and football department is what I'm interested in. If Ben Long had looked more like Michael Long (not the 2017 version, he would have a bit of strife walking briskly without sweating) would we have taken him? A distasteful question? Probably.

I'm not focusing specifically on this year but this current football dept's term. I guess I'm thinking that the last player we had in our first team who fit the above criteria was Raph Clarke.

The claim that it is complete conjecture about Liam Ryan is fine. I was just using him as an example. The claim that we didn't have the picks isn't something I totally disagree with either, but we've had a good spread of picks over the last few years.

Another claim was that we're about mid-ranked currently is interesting. I'd like to see the details of that statistic. But I'm interested in the idea that despite our proud history, the current version of the club doesn't have much connection with aboriginal culture compared not only to obvious clubs in WA and SA but even Melbourne clubs like Carlton.

I'm trying to be honest and respectful, which means being fairly long winded. Sorry for that.

The aboriginal community make up 3% of the population and 75% of them live in urban or semi urban places. I'm guessing that's the white communities you mention. It's a myth and very probably racist to think that they all run around bare footed in the desert kicking a footy.

I think the bigger question might be - do a representative number of afl players come from deprived areas. The aboriginal community is over-represented within deprived areas so the statistics may be of assistance there. There's a whole heap of private school footballers but with scholarships etc that doesn't stop them coming from deprived areas.

I have no evidence but I reckon there is a lot more talent lost across deprived communities as a whole than there is across the abroriginal community where there seems to be a decent amount of effort to bring it through.

 

[austinnn]

I think Terry Milera was straight out Indigenous Aussie.

Whoops. Correct. My bad.

 

[Kilroy]

I'm an unashamed fan of many of the indigenous guys and am always curious who's around at our picks.

Three years ago I was a little concerned the Lovett saga had burnt our fingers but Gresh, Koby and Longy means we've crossed that bridge.

Last year Powell-Pepper and Cedric Cox would have been on our radar but went before our pick. Petrevski-Seton and Simpkin too but they were never going to last. We took Long ahead of Bolton and Parfitt. Maybe he was seen as best available and more acclimatised to Melbourne. The point being we didn't flinch.

This year there was little to tempt us with what we wanted around our picks. Zac Bailey or Tim Kelly would have been tempting if they made it to #35. Maybe Ryan, but we were obviously (and rightly I think) focussed on getting mids, and he didn't last anyway. No problem either way.

Port Adelaide is a fan too. They lost Krakouer, Impey and Ah Chee but picked up Motlop, Garner, Barry, Patmore and Thomas. It will be fascinating to see how they go with all that support around them, including that from Neade, Ryder, Wingard, Powell-Pepper and Johnson.

 

[Stewart66]

Groan.

I really hesitate to make this thread because it's so taboo and so easy for semantics and emotion to derail what could be a straight forward discussion.

I'll preface with the significant part of my own post from another thread:





So that's my opinion, and I have to admit I get a little jealous when I see other clubs with so many really good aboriginal players and what appears to be a good set up for supporting them.

Ben Long, Jade Gresham, Koby Stevens. Do we have anyone else on our list that identifies as aboriginal? Don't you find it strange, law of averages and all that?

Like I said, it shouldn't matter, I'm happy if we got the best players we could but compared to other clubs it seems strange that we are one of the few clubs who feel that none of the full blooded aboriginal players from the last 5 or so years (as opposed to a player who's grown up in a white Australian community and who has some aboriginal blood) are the best option for us.

Anyway, I thought it worthy of at least asking your opinion to satisfy my curiosity. Sorry to cause trouble.


http://m.afl.com.au/news/2017-11-29/im-more-settled-than-at-gold-coast-new-blue-garlett

Another player I saw and thought that we wouldn't have taken a chance on.

The issue is not about colour it is about elitism that sport in general in my opinion

AFL academies were introduced for that reason to help in the further development of kids who due to financial,
and family support being unable to do so, regardless whether they are Aboriginal , African , Middle East or even
Australian .
Look at the domination of private schools in all levels of sport due to funding.

Know of suburban clubs dealing with kids from Africa , who are doing great job developing this area , but bemoan
the fact there is a severe lack of mentors within family to help keep them on that pathway .

Think development is hard enough to make it in the AFL for kids with all the support from family , with the countless meetings , training sessions etc. that they do these days.
For me it is easy to understand a lot of AFL clubs taking the easier road , given the high levels of youth suicide,
drug addiction , gambling that is in society these days.

 

[plugger66]

I dont care what who or how we recruit but I fail to understand the topic after our recruiting in the last few years. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Joffaboy]

I dont care what who or how we recruit but I fail to understand the topic after our recruiting in the last few years. Maybe I'm missing something.

I agree. I must be missing something.

I would as far to say if we chose players only because they were aboriginal is at best patronising and tokenism and also doing the club a disservice if we chose a player who doesnt fit our needs.

 

[King_Steele]

Narkle/Winmar/McAdam/Mitchell/
Charles/Murray/Clarkex2/
Tungatalum/Lovett/Winmar/Milera/
Gresham/Stevens/Long

No we don’t have a problem. BTW I’m full Aboriginal. I used to get teased in the 09/10 days in high school for being a “white dominant team” my oh my I was stoked when we recruited Andrew Lovett. Lasted 2 weeks lel.

 

[gringo2011]

Narkle/Winmar/McAdam/Mitchell/
Charles/Murray/Clarkex2/
Tungatalum/Lovett/Winmar/Milera/
Gresham/Stevens/Long

No we don’t have a problem. BTW I’m full Aboriginal. I used to get teased in the 09/10 days in high school for being a “white dominant team” my oh my I was stoked when we recruited Andrew Lovett. Lasted 2 weeks lel.

Do you know where your people were from?

 

[King_Steele]

Do you know where your people were from?

Echuca/Narrandera areas. I’m Wirradjuri & Yorta-Yorta.

 

[gringo2011]

Echuca/Narrandera areas. I’m Wirradjuri & Yorta-Yorta.

My cousin is half Indigenous, his old man was full blood, his people are from SA. I can't remember the name of the tribe though.

I got to know some of the Ngarrindjeri guys that used to come down to St Kilda from Murray Bridge too.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

No we don’t have a problem. BTW I’m full Aboriginal. I used to get teased in the 09/10 days in high school .

Now that youve admitted that Jackie i dont like you anymore.


Oh not the fact your aboriginal Pffftt i dont care about that.
Its because you were still in High School in 2010 while i was in my early 40s
#feeloldnow