Discussion Does our club's current footy dept have a problem with aboriginal players?

[plugger66]

Of course football has changed...the suburban grounds, the mud pit at Moorabbin, the disco, the characters of the game, state of origin, the more relaxed umpiring of the games, the entire competition was less commercialised than it is today. Football today is much more stable and profitable than it was back then but you'd be silly not to recognise the differences.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...k=98ff56333136ac22c6e05b5a6d5cea1b-1512800241

And who said anything about player loyalty and clubs wanting to win, lol.

And why does that mean it meant so much more back then? Lol whatever that means apart. None of those thing existed in 2009 and it bloody meant a lot to many people then. The point of mentioning loyalty was that was the only logical thing I could think you meant and it seems I was right.

 

[StCicatriz]

in all seriousness after my piss take. i hope we dont have a problem with selecting indigenous players. i hope we select best available/best positional fit regardless of ethnicity.

i think we should be really proud of the contribution indigenous players have made to the game. they're part of what makes this country and the game unique. we are better for it.

i do worry that the game at the highest level is becoming increasingly conservative in the pathway from junior football to the elite. my fear is a bunch of kids wont/dont get the opportunity progressing through the various levels because of a perceived risk due to their background, be it location/cultural differences/socioeconomic reasons etc. my fear isn't just for indigenous kids, but for everyone.

i hope that a kid born in the "bush" in a poor family has as much chance of making it as a kid born into a metropolitan family that can afford private schooling.

can you imagine how much poorer the game would be if carlton didnt take a chance on eddie betts because he was from remote WA

 

[George]

And why does that mean it meant so much more back then? Lol whatever that means apart. None of those thing existed in 2009 and it bloody meant a lot to many people then. The point of mentioning loyalty was that was the only logical thing I could think you meant and it seems I was right.

I don't know about the kind of people you hang around who think football always stays the same and always means the same thing to them when they were 10 years old to when they were 50, but there's many people who definitely would feel more immersed in the game thirty, forty years ago than now. You don't have to look very far, a lot of them are on this forum. Just look at how corporate the game has become. The biggest game on the calendar every year is sold out by people in suits who don't support either side. A lot of the spirit and joy of going to the football these days is different to back then.

I was certain I wouldn't have to go on explaining something so obvious but there you go.

 

[plugger66]

I don't know about the kind of people you hang around who think football always stays the same and always means the same thing to them when they were 10 years old to when they were 50, but there's many people who definitely would feel more immersed in the game thirty, forty years ago than now. You don't have to look very far, a lot of them are on this forum. Just look at how corporate the game has become. The biggest game on the calendar every year is sold out by people in suits who don't support either side. A lot of the spirit and joy of going to the football these days is different to back then.

I was certain I wouldn't have to go on explaining something so obvious but there you go.

So lets get this straight. I thought you said footy meant more to people back then but now you are on about how the game has changed. Surely they are two completely different topics. And a very nice arrogant last line by you. Obviously it makes you feel better see that you have changed the point. Funny that footy doesn't mean as much today but we have many footy forums, a 24 hour footy channel, many more footy shows, more live games on TV, a 24 hour sports radio station that talks footy most of the day. Yep footy meant more back then. It obviously did for you but don't include me and many others who watch and listen to footy more than ever.

Did you actually think at stages in 2009 footy meant more to me in the 90's than it did then? It was the furthest thing from my mind.

 

[George]

So lets get this straight. I thought you said footy meant more to people back then but now you are on about how the game has changed. Surely they are two completely different topics. And a very nice arrogant last line by you. Obviously it makes you feel better see that you have changed the point. Funny that footy doesn't mean as much today but we have many footy forums, a 24 hour footy channel, many more footy shows, more live games on TV, a 24 hour sports radio station that talks footy most of the day. Yep footy meant more back then. It obviously did for you but don't include me and many others who watch and listen to footy more than ever.

Did you actually think at stages in 2009 footy meant more to me in the 90's than it did then? It was the furthest thing from my mind.

Haha ok plugger

 

[austinnn]

Haha ok plugger

Correct response. Should be a template.

 

[austinnn]

It was one of my most memorable Saints games. I remember it because of the disappointment of '97 and then we started 98 strongly, we were 4-1 heading into Perth and in my mind if we could win that game I'd consider us a legitimate chance. We were without Loewe, Burke, Hall and Thompson so it would mean a heck of a lot more to do it without a full strength side.

And by god was it hard to win over there. That win was only our 2nd victory in Perth against the Eagles in 12 years.

We were down by 25 points late in the third term and came roaring home, Daniel Healy on his 27th birthday kicked six goals (the best game of his career) and when Mitchell put us in front late I can vividly remember my old man & I leaping out of our seats and shouting at the TV, lol.

That era of footy was just special. It meant so much more to people back then.

Oh god, now I remember. 6 goals to Daniel Healy, from nowhere! I watched that on TV and probably reacted similarly to the vision of Stan in the coaches box. Such a shame it was fools gold but I thought we were flying back then.

 

[George]

Oh god, now I remember. 6 goals to Daniel Healy, from nowhere! I watched that on TV and probably reacted similarly to the vision of Stan in the coaches box. Such a shame it was fools gold but I thought we were flying back then.

It was a cracking game! Then 9 years later for Harve's 350th! We've had some good wins over there

 

[Moral Decay]

Groan.

I really hesitate to make this thread because it's so taboo and so easy for semantics and emotion to derail what could be a straight forward discussion.

I'll preface with the significant part of my own post from another thread:





So that's my opinion, and I have to admit I get a little jealous when I see other clubs with so many really good aboriginal players and what appears to be a good set up for supporting them.

Ben Long, Jade Gresham, Koby Stevens. Do we have anyone else on our list that identifies as aboriginal? Don't you find it strange, law of averages and all that?

Like I said, it shouldn't matter, I'm happy if we got the best players we could but compared to other clubs it seems strange that we are one of the few clubs who feel that none of the full blooded aboriginal players from the last 5 or so years (as opposed to a player who's grown up in a white Australian community and who has some aboriginal blood) are the best option for us.

Anyway, I thought it worthy of at least asking your opinion to satisfy my curiosity. Sorry to cause trouble.


http://m.afl.com.au/news/2017-11-29/im-more-settled-than-at-gold-coast-new-blue-garlett

Another player I saw and thought that we wouldn't have taken a chance on.

Prepared for a lot of negative feedback, but here goes.

My problem is that to argue exceptionalism as a function of race, whether positive or negative is racism. As soon as a kid is defined as aboriginal it's racism.

There are realities in life that will determine any child's capacity for success, if believe that deferred gratification is a marker, then we are pretty set in our ways by the age of 5. For myself, I can say that my childhood led to impulse control issues that would have made me completely useless as an elite sportsman, or even as anything other than very casual participant. Those issues of how I was raised go back hundreds of years, handed down from one generation to another. The external appearance is of a WASP background, the truth of course is different, and I'm very much of mixed cultures, all with issues with anger, psychology and substance abuse, so bad the shrinks said I wouldn't live to see 25. Just the back grounds that I know of, English, Irish, Scottish, Swedish, Canadian, Catholic and Protestant. The bits that I'm unsure of Aboriginal, Spanish, German, Islamic and Jewish.

My point is that none of those cultural inheritances make a rat's arse worth of differences, how and why I was raised the way I was is the defining characteristic, every kid is the same.

 

[plugger66]

Correct response. Should be a template.

Thanks for the response Austinn. Adding a lot. Anyway beck to your original post and why I think it makes no sense. We have 3 indigenous players and then you say the law of averages so we should have more. Well how many more should we have on the law of averages. maybe one maybe none. Also we have drafted those 3 in the last 2 years so that suggest we have no problem at all. Maybe we did, Who knows but I would suggest 3 players out of about 15 drafted or traded in the last 3 years is well above the law of averages. Then you suggest we should have taken Ryan but you knew we wouldn't. I would love you to tell us how we could have taken him. Are you saying we should have used pick 7 or 8 on him because a guy on here likes him? Come off it. He went about the right pick based on all things at the moment. He may end up a pick 1 or a pick 100 but he wasn't going 7 or 8.

I can honestly say we seem to have no problems with getting indigenous players from the outside and having one live with me the club seemed to treat him just like any of player from the inside even though that was a fair few years ago. And footy today is just as important to many people as footy back in 1995. Now that is the correct response.

 

[austinnn]

Thanks for the response Austinn. Adding a lot. Anyway beck to your original post and why I think it makes no sense. We have 3 indigenous players and then you say the law of averages so we should have more. Well how many more should we have on the law of averages. maybe one maybe none. Also we have drafted those 3 in the last 2 years so that suggest we have no problem at all. Maybe we did, Who knows but I would suggest 3 players out of about 15 drafted or traded in the last 3 years is well above the law of averages. Then you suggest we should have taken Ryan but you knew we wouldn't. I would love you to tell us how we could have taken him. Are you saying we should have used pick 7 or 8 on him because a guy on here likes him? Come off it. He went about the right pick based on all things at the moment. He may end up a pick 1 or a pick 100 but he wasn't going 7 or 8.

I can honestly say we seem to have no problems with getting indigenous players from the outside and having one live with me the club seemed to treat him just like any of player from the inside even though that was a fair few years ago. And footy today is just as important to many people as footy back in 1995. Now that is the correct response.

Haha ok plugger

 

[plugger66]

Haha ok plugger

Wow. That is a really adult response. I went to trouble to address your points and you come up with that crap. Wowee


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[gringo2011]

Prepared for a lot of negative feedback, but here goes.

My problem is that to argue exceptionalism as a function of race, whether positive or negative is racism. As soon as a kid is defined as aboriginal it's racism.

There are realities in life that will determine any child's capacity for success, if believe that deferred gratification is a marker, then we are pretty set in our ways by the age of 5. For myself, I can say that my childhood led to impulse control issues that would have made me completely useless as an elite sportsman, or even as anything other than very casual participant. Those issues of how I was raised go back hundreds of years, handed down from one generation to another. The external appearance is of a WASP background, the truth of course is different, and I'm very much of mixed cultures, all with issues with anger, psychology and substance abuse, so bad the shrinks said I wouldn't live to see 25. Just the back grounds that I know of, English, Irish, Scottish, Swedish, Canadian, Catholic and Protestant. The bits that I'm unsure of Aboriginal, Spanish, German, Islamic and Jewish.

My point is that none of those cultural inheritances make a rat's arse worth of differences, how and why I was raised the way I was is the defining characteristic, every kid is the same.

I get what you are saying but it’s different when you can be treated negatively by how you look. Being good at AFL football is good for the indigenous kids as far as racial pride goes though. It’s something they weren’t ever really allowed for a long time. Even native Americans were given a a sense of nobility about there culture that white Australia never acknowledged until recently.
It’s a good philosophical debate still. You kind of undid your strong start with the racial stereotyping of you own genetic heritage though.

 

[austinnn]

Wow. That is a really adult response. I went to trouble to address your points and you come up with that crap. Wowee


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I feel guilty now.

I still think it is the perfect response to you because you seem to just love arguing. Being somewhat of a contrarian myself, I get it to a certain extent. It's good to challenge opinions especially when it's just lazy group think. But you're relentless, and at some stage all one can really say is "ok, whatever"

But since you made me feel bad, here goes:

I never said we should have taken Ryan, I said I would have liked us to take him, and I conceded that we wouldn't. I should have clarified that I didn't expect (or want) us to reach for him, and I thought that if he had been available at either of our other picks, we still wouldn't have taken him. Pure conjecture, we will never know. But my point is my suspicion is we would have avoided him regardless. Whether that is true or not, whether it would have been the right thing to do is a matter of opinion and guesswork. I'll leave it there though.

I clearly stated more than once I wasn't just talking about the last 2 years.

To be frank, I don't know what the averages are, whether it's 5 or 15 or 55. Since the turn of the century I am guessing we have the following reps from the aboriginal community: Xavier Clarke, Raphael Clarke, Ross T, Terry Milera, plus Nick Winmar, Jade Gresham, Koby Stevens and Ben Long. I may have missed someone.

I made the distinction more than once about aboriginal players like Jade Gresham and ones like Liam Jurrah. I won't go over it again. You are welcome to disagree but I am too ignorant of aboriginal affairs to debate it, I'll just read what more informed (than me) posters think about it respectfully.

As I have said, I just get the feeling our club sees certain types of aboriginal player an unnecessary hassle. I could be wrong but recruiting those 3 players (Gresh Koby and Long) - to me - doesn't disprove my suspicion. If you are convinced, that's great. At no stage did I suggest a quota or redressal and I think it would never work in Australia.

Argue all you want with me, but you'll forgive me for being tired of you arguing with every little thing, even if you are right.

 

[cooperrules]

Do they have a useless thread competion?

 

[austinnn]

Do they have a useless thread competion?

Dunno, but if they had a useless post comp, you'd be high up on the leaderboard.

But snipe away friend. Care to nominate most useful thread?

 

[cooperrules]

Dunno, but if they had a useless post comp, you'd be high up on the leaderboard.

But snipe away friend. Care to nominate most useful thread?

What do you reckon we should change our name the KKK saints?

 

[CursingFijian]

What do you reckon we should change our name the KKK saints?

This is the kind of attitude that drives me nuts in Australia. That laid back, boganistic, sarcastic quip that speaks to the ignorance of the person who uttered it but is somehow able to galvanize a snickering mob. It deserves to be outed for what it is...pure dumbass.

I know discussing these issues is hard, they are confronting. If you aren't prepared to put forth a reasoned opinion then just stay clear because all you're doing is skewing the quality of the average post downwards in a big way.

 

[borderbarry]

In the forthcoming draft, the only Indigenous boy that I know of is tied to North Melbourne by its Tasmanian scholarship plan or whatever you want to call it. And the Northern Territory is tied up by Collingwood, Essendon, Melbourne, Hawthorn and possibly other clubs, so it is going to be very hard for us to recruit young Indigenous players in the future.

 

[cooperrules]

This is the kind of attitude that drives me nuts in Australia. That laid back, boganistic, sarcastic quip that speaks to the ignorance of the person who uttered it but is somehow able to galvanize a snickering mob. It deserves to be outed for what it is...pure dumbass.

I know discussing these issues is hard, they are confronting. If you aren't prepared to put forth a reasoned opinion then just stay clear because all you're doing is skewing the quality of the average post downwards in a big way.

Fair points and duly noted wasnt intended to offend. Weve got 3 indigenous lads on our list. Have rich history of champion indigenous players. So i just dont get what the point of this thread is. Yeah lets just create something because were bored that has no relrvance whatsoever.

 

[gringo2011]

In the forthcoming draft, the only Indigenous boy that I know of is tied to North Melbourne by its Tasmanian scholarship plan or whatever you want to call it. And the Northern Territory is tied up by Collingwood, Essendon, Melbourne, Hawthorn and possibly other clubs, so it is going to be very hard for us to recruit young Indigenous players in the future.

Yeah that's what I was disappointed with the academy for, we get a very small area of urban Melbourne while Melbourne and Richmond get vast areas of states. Not for any other reason other than continuing the rich history of indigenous players at our club I wish we had had an indigenous dominated area. Often the indigenous kids are underdogs just to make it into a system dominated by private school boys who have been managed and massaged into the pro system at an early age. We are an underdog team and the romantic in me loves the battlers like Geary for the same reason.

Our best hope from the academy is that some of the African and Middle eastern kids from around Dandenong want to come on down. Some of the South Sudanese kids look like incredible athletes, not sure there are many that have chosen it as their go to sport yet.

 

[kosifantutti]

It was one of my most memorable Saints games. I remember it because of the disappointment of '97 and then we started 98 strongly, we were 4-1 heading into Perth and in my mind if we could win that game I'd consider us a legitimate chance. We were without Loewe, Burke, Hall and Thompson so it would mean a heck of a lot more to do it without a full strength side.

And by god was it hard to win over there. That win was only our 2nd victory in Perth against the Eagles in 12 years.

We were down by 25 points late in the third term and came roaring home, Daniel Healy on his 27th birthday kicked six goals (the best game of his career) and when Mitchell put us in front late I can vividly remember my old man & I leaping out of our seats and shouting at the TV, lol.

That era of footy was just special. It meant so much more to people back then.

It was Healy’s 24th birthday. In one of the greatest coincidences in modern football it was also Peter Everett’s 24th birthday and he also kicked 6 goals.

The Wakelin twins who also played that game, did not share a birthday.

 

[Moral Decay]

I get what you are saying but it’s different when you can be treated negatively by how you look. Being good at AFL football is good for the indigenous kids as far as racial pride goes though. It’s something they weren’t ever really allowed for a long time. Even native Americans were given a a sense of nobility about there culture that white Australia never acknowledged until recently.
It’s a good philosophical debate still. You kind of undid your strong start with the racial stereotyping of you own genetic heritage though.

I've done it deliberately, not to say poor me but to explain my logic, because it applies to every one. To label any Indigenous kid, makes assumed reference to his family life, and his strengths and limitations. I'd much rather we just said we like this kid's abilities and we understand that how he is raised will place limitations or advantages on his ability to deliver as a professional sports man.
There's issues with all stereotyping, variously I've been popular, unpopular, the aussie kid, the pommy kid, the white kid out of place in South Asian populations in the Midlands, the fat kid, the skinny kid, the four eyed kid, too smart, too sporty, too poor, too wealthy, the city kid, the bush kid, I drove taxis for 6 years, and according to how people liked or didn't like me, I was one of them and a lovey bloke, Greek, Italian, Jewish, Indigenous etc. or they hated me and I was abused because I was Greek, Italian, Jewish, Indigenous etc. These kids are human, as am I, as you are, as are all of us and that humanity comes in a wide variety of experience, it helps and it hinders.

People use stereotyping as a short cut to understanding, it's human, it's understandable, it works and it doesn't, just get to know them and let go of the tags, we can all be wonderful and terrible, it's got SFA to do with race.

 

[gringo2011]

I've done it deliberately, not to say poor me but to explain my logic, because it applies to every one. To label any Indigenous kid, makes assumed reference to his family life, and his strengths and limitations. I'd much rather we just said we like this kid's abilities and we understand that how he is raised will place limitations or advantages on his ability to deliver as a professional sports man.
There's issues with all stereotyping, variously I've been popular, unpopular, the aussie kid, the pommy kid, the white kid out of place in South Asian populations in the Midlands, the fat kid, the skinny kid, the four eyed kid, too smart, too sporty, too poor, too wealthy, the city kid, the bush kid, I drove taxis for 6 years, and according to how people liked or didn't like me, I was one of them and a lovey bloke, Greek, Italian, Jewish, Indigenous etc. or they hated me and I was abused because I was Greek, Italian, Jewish, Indigenous etc. These kids are human, as am I, as you are, as are all of us and that humanity comes in a wide variety of experience, it helps and it hinders.

People use stereotyping as a short cut to understanding, it's human, it's understandable, it works and it doesn't, just get to know them and let go of the tags, we can all be wonderful and terrible, it's got SFA to do with race.

I reckon as the world mixes up more and more the stereo types will go a bit but some are hard to shake. Ones like Aboriginal kids having positive sporting traits are probably good most of the time but one that has them labelled as socially dysfunctional or negative can be devastating and limit their prospects. It's amazing how culturally diverse we are now, it will change with time to be less pre judging.

 

[CursingFijian]

Fair points and duly noted wasnt intended to offend. Weve got 3 indigenous lads on our list. Have rich history of champion indigenous players. So i just dont get what the point of this thread is. Yeah lets just create something because were bored that has no relrvance whatsoever.

If we ask ourselves the question is Trout ready and prepared to select indigenous players on their merits to join the St Kilda Football list then the very obvious answer is yes. Of course he is. But it ignores the bigger issue.

All AFL clubs want prospective draftees to present with certain standards that pertain to communication, learning ability, training discipline, and of course football prowess. Now, it is hard for kids of all sizes, athletic attributes, and developmental backgrounds to meet the cruteria and then go on to cut it at the top level. But it is indigenous Australians in particular that have the biggest challenges in making the grade, and I'm not talking about people from Broadmeadows.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/un-s...ons-worse-than-third-world-20091204-kay8.html

plugger66 was discussing how much football means to ordinary Australians in the modern age versus years gone by. Let me tell you, in case you are unsure, it means a hell of a lot to indigenous Australians, in a way that most white Australians will not be able to comprehend, even if they tried. And most of you aren't even trying.

Indigenous Australians have made an enormous contribution to australian football in all state leagues, and continue to do so. Again probably in ways that you don't know about and won't be willing to consider. For example, legend has it that the term 'mark' is derived from aboriginal language. Do people even know why the Marngrook footy show carries it's name? School yourselves people.

The Law of Western Australia had to be changed before Polly Farmer could begin his footballing career. Doug Nicholls attributes his knighthood (and eventual rise to become the Governer of SA) to being recruited by Fitzroy. Making the game easily accessible to indigenous Australians is hugely, massively, really, very important. Not just for the sport. But for Australia.

So why is the system setting up to become something that is unattainable to the very people who may have the deepest most spiritual connection to the sport? And in the face of that we (St Kilda) are spending money on making it more accessible to the Irish, New Zealanders, and Americans. So my question is:

'IS ST KILDA DOING ENOUGH TO MAKE A SPOT ON IT'S LIST ACCESSIBLE TO INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS IN RURAL AND OUTBACK AUSTRALIA, WHO HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH FOOTBALL PROWESS BUT LAG IN ALL OTHER AREAS DUE TO THE CONDITIONS OF THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH THEY EXIST.'

I don't really care for all the arguments about why our hands have been tied. It's a simple question. Are we doing enough?

We could start by wearing our indigenous designs more than the token once a year FFS.