Review Dogs 106 def Suns 87

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Mutt

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So Cordy more effective than Sweet in around the ground stoppages which is where we had an advantage.

Goes against what some in here were saying. Seem to see what they want to see, not necessarily what actually plays out.
Law of small numbers at play here. Try adding one to Sweet's tally and take one from Cordy and the percentages are totally different. One clearance either way swings the result dramatically, so you can't really draw too much from it.
 

Charlie Bucket

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Didn't get a secondary stoppage last week either. Here are the numbers for both R9/10...

Sweet attended 43 centre bounces with us winning 24 clearances (56%), losing 12 and 7 going to a secondary stoppage

Cordy attended 12 centre bounces with us winning 4 clearances (33%), losing 8 and 0 going to a secondary stoppage.

Out of interest. How is an effective hitout calculated? Does it have to result in a clearance?
 

Charlie Bucket

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Law of small numbers at play here. Try adding one to Sweet's tally and take one from Cordy and the percentages are totally different. One clearance either way swings the result dramatically, so you can't really draw too much from it.

Just a sly dig Mutt.
 
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LondonBulldog

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That was the point of my posts (poor attempt at sarcasm)

Hit out numbers mean f**k all if there’s other factor involved. Including but not limited to a midfield that excels on clearance work regardless of who’s the effective ruckman.

Our centre bounce clearance issues are only a recent thing. For a long time while it was English getting spanked one out, we’d still dominate that statistic.

In short, a ruck winning the taps means duck all for a lot of the time (particularly for our team).

Against the best of the best it mattered, grand final day against Melbourne and to me that’s all what matters. If we expect English to ruck basically one out for the rest of the year and finals then god help us. If we continue to develop Sweet at least we have options, even if to preserve English. Its a game of attrition we can’t wear our number 1 option out, we need him firing when it matters.


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doggies ftw

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Didn't get a secondary stoppage last week either. Here are the numbers for both R9/10...

Sweet attended 43 centre bounces with us winning 24 clearances (56%), losing 12 and 7 going to a secondary stoppage

Cordy attended 12 centre bounces with us winning 4 clearances (33%), losing 8 and 0 going to a secondary stoppage.
Very telling numbers in a super important part of the game which is only growing with momentum football - need to be able to halt momentum when it’s turning against you and make the most of it when you have it and that all starts in the centre square.

I’d love to see some of English’s numbers in this regard earlier in the year if you don’t mind

Exciting to see the potential upsides of possibly going to a 2 ruck set up
 

Charlie Bucket

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Against the best of the best it mattered, grand final day against Melbourne and to me that’s all what matters. If we expect English to ruck basically one out for the rest of the year and finals then god help us. If we continue to develop Sweet at least we have options, even if to preserve English. Its a game of attrition we can’t wear our number 1 option out, we need him firing when it matters.


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The ruck battle didn’t lose us the GF. Not sure why this keeps getting regurgitated.

I don’t think the expectation was for English to ruck one out the whole season. Martin is cooked and Sweet looked a mile off up until last week.

We rucked two out for most of last season including the GF. The thinking that the coaches still refuse to play two rucks should be dead in the water. We just haven’t had the cattle this season and are light on across the list.

The English/Sweet ruck team is just like lasts years ruck set up except English is now No1. Throws a bit of a spanner in the works.

In regards to the development of Sweet. Do you believe he should do so in the 1’s regardless of form/performance?
 

doggies ftw

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Have to take into consideration that we push extra numbers around the ball for ball ups and throw ins so hit outs become less of a factor.

Centre clearances are where teams do all the damage.
I’d love to know how much this leads into our poor entries inside 50, seems we love picking out the oppo whilst going forward - could this be due to pushing numbers up to the contest?

Again it shows how much we focus on midfield dominance - it’s key to our game plan, yet we neglect the ruck? Considering how much we’ve invested in our midfield I’d like to be able to rely on them to beat the opposition pound for pound without hurting the forward
line to be completely honest - moving to a 2 ruck set up would be a step in the right direction imo
 

threenewpadlocks

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Law of small numbers at play here. Try adding one to Sweet's tally and take one from Cordy and the percentages are totally different. One clearance either way swings the result dramatically, so you can't really draw too much from it.
Not to mention you know, seven other players have an impact on the outcome of the centre bounce.

FWIW Cordy rucked a lot against Witts and Sweet against Chol.

Peoplr are reading way too much into small randomness of centre bounce clearance numbers without context, rather than more direct and obvious stas, like, 4 disposals, only 1 which was linking up in general play (not a free kick). Incredible.
 

Next Waiting

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Sweet attended 23 centre bounces with us winning 12 clearances, losing 7 and 4 going to a secondary stoppage.


Cordy attended 7 centre bounces with us winning 1 clearance, losing 6 and 0 going to a secondary stoppage.
Do you have the same stats on Witts and Chol OG?

Edit:

Sorry Oliver Gigacz but also

Sweet v Witts
Sweet v Chol
Cordy v Witts
Cordy v Chol
 
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doggies ftw

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Not to mention you know, seven other players have an impact on the outcome of the centre bounce.

FWIW Cordy rucked a lot against Witts and Sweet against Chol.

Peoplr are reading way too much into small randomness of centre bounce clearance numbers without context, rather than more direct and obvious stas, like, 4 disposals, only 1 which was linking up in general play (not a free kick). Incredible.
Do you have anything to back up that Cordy was mostly against Witts and Sweet against Chol or have you literally just made that up - I’d be very surprised if this was the case.

And Cordy had 1 more disposal, less pressure acts way less tackles and only spent 67% tog - so we get all the downsides of Sweet without the obvious positive we’d get, you’re right, incredible is a good way to put it
 

Oliver Gigacz

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Do you have the same stats on Witts and Chol OG?

Edit:

Sorry Oliver Gigacz but also

Sweet v Witts
Sweet v Chol
Cordy v Witts
Cordy v Chol

For the match...

Sweet vs. Witts (76 contests)
Hitouts: 24 / 38
To Advantage: 8 / 13
Clearances: 32 / 20
Score: 6.3 (39) / 3.3 (21)

Sweet vs. Cool (3 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 0
To Advantage: 2 / 0
Clearances: 2 / 1
Score: 0.0 (0) / 0.0 (0)

Cordy vs. Witts (19 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 13
To Advantage: 1 /6
Clearances: 7 / 8
Score: 1.0 (6) / 2.2 (14)

Cordy vs. Chol (6 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 2
To Advantage: 1 / 1
Clearances: 2 / 3
Score: 1.0 (6) / 1.0 (6)
 

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Dog 36

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Not to mention you know, seven other players have an impact on the outcome of the centre bounce.

FWIW Cordy rucked a lot against Witts and Sweet against Chol.

Peoplr are reading way too much into small randomness of centre bounce clearance numbers without context, rather than more direct and obvious stas, like, 4 disposals, only 1 which was linking up in general play (not a free kick). Incredible.

Right now we are winning more games when Sweet is in the side and I would persevere with that.

IMO we are harder to play against with Sweet in the side and the opposition rucks don’t get a reprieve when he’s playing.

Some of his tap work has been missed and I haven’t seen in a while.

There is enough to my eye to play two rucks and see what it looks like and where it takes us.

IMO Cordy and English would benefit with Sweet in the side
 
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Next Waiting

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For the match...

Sweet vs. Witts (76 contests)
Hitouts: 24 / 38
To Advantage: 8 / 13
Clearances: 32 / 20
Score: 6.3 (39) / 3.3 (21)

Sweet vs. Cool (3 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 0
To Advantage: 2 / 0
Clearances: 2 / 1
Score: 0.0 (0) / 0.0 (0)

Cordy vs. Witts (19 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 13
To Advantage: 1 /6
Clearances: 7 / 8
Score: 1.0 (6) / 2.2 (14)

Cordy vs. Chol (6 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 2
To Advantage: 1 / 1
Clearances: 2 / 3
Score: 1.0 (6) / 1.0 (6)
Centre Bounces only in the contested/won/lost/secondary stoppage format?
 

doggies ftw

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Do you have anything to back up that Cordy was mostly against Witts and Sweet against Chol or have you literally just made that up - I’d be very surprised if this was the case.

And Cordy had 1 more disposal, less pressure acts way less tackles and only spent 67% tog - so we get all the downsides of Sweet without the obvious positive we’d get, you’re right, incredible is a good way to put it
Hahaha so yes as expected you just made that up to suit your point 3NP… 3 contests against Chol for Sweet
 

Next Waiting

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Not to mention you know, seven other players have an impact on the outcome of the centre bounce.

FWIW Cordy rucked a lot against Witts and Sweet against Chol.

Peoplr are reading way too much into small randomness of centre bounce clearance numbers without context, rather than more direct and obvious stas, like, 4 disposals, only 1 which was linking up in general play (not a free kick). Incredible.
The stats don't appear to bare that out.
 

Mutt

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Not to mention you know, seven other players have an impact on the outcome of the centre bounce.

FWIW Cordy rucked a lot against Witts and Sweet against Chol.

Peoplr are reading way too much into small randomness of centre bounce clearance numbers without context, rather than more direct and obvious stas, like, 4 disposals, only 1 which was linking up in general play (not a free kick). Incredible.
Pay attention...you are agreeing with the point I made. :)
 
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Chalky White

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I don't think I said that. Are they best 22? I don't think so. Did they contribute meaningfully today? For the most part. I would have selected them both today and been happy enough with their performances. But they'll both be squeezed, IMO, if/when the cavalry arrive (English, Bruce, Hunter, Weightman, McLean, JJ, VDM(?), Duryea, Hannan).
I think West should be a certainty for the rest of the season. He's far better than VDM. As for Sweet, why not do what other successful teams do and have two rucks? Forget Martin he's as old as Methuselah. It's time to move on now.
 

Northernsoul74

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I think West should be a certainty for the rest of the season. He's far better than VDM. As for Sweet, why not do what other successful teams do and have two rucks? Forget Martin he's as old as Methuselah. It's time to move on now.
I think everyone has Sweet ahead of Martin now. Most of the debate has been around how successful can an English and Sweet 1-2 punch work. English being eased back in after the flu provides a perfect chance to take a look.
 

dogwatch

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  • ...
  • It's been said enough how good Richards has played but I just want to give him credit for improving as a player after having 60-odd games and looking actually quite poor in a lot of it. I understand he was out of position for the good part of three years having to play wing and half-forward rather than his natural half-back, but footy is still footy and it's one of the more extraordinary turnarounds for a bloke, while young, had played enough league games that you can say was already in the middle part of his career. He's getting better and better.
  • ...
This is a salutary lesson for an awful lot of us on BF. Sometimes players need a change of club. But sometimes all they need is a bit more time and continuity. Or the opportunity to play their ideal role.

I'm pretty sure there were a good few here who were very happy to sell Richards off to the Pies for a second or third rounder last year. If we'd done that and he had a season for the Pies like he's having this year for us we'd all be pretty cheesed off.

It was a similar story with Dale and Williams in previous years.

I realise players like McComb (27yo, 4 games), McNeil (20, 20 games), West (21, 14 games) and Sweet (24, 7 games) are different in many respects and probably none of them came onto our list with the natural talents of Richards (22, 73 games) but they are all showing hints of improvement, admittedly coming off a lowish base.

Surely if Richards can be given 60 games before finding form and his niche we can afford these blokes at least a dozen or so games - during a period of high injuries and illness - before writing off their careers? Same probably applies to Butler who I think someone said should never play seniors again after he had one bad game earlier this year.

Now I know not all of them will go on to play 50 or 100 games but why is it that we always have to rush to judgement? Is it something as small-minded as just wanting to be the first to say that he's a dud?
 

Fossie 32

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Didn't get a secondary stoppage last week either. Here are the numbers for both R9/10...

Sweet attended 43 centre bounces with us winning 24 clearances (56%), losing 12 and 7 going to a secondary stoppage

Cordy attended 12 centre bounces with us winning 4 clearances (33%), losing 8 and 0 going to a secondary stoppage.
Nice. Can you pls add the losing ruck contests to your weekly stats?
 

josh the gent

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The ruck battle didn’t lose us the GF. Not sure why this keeps getting regurgitated.

I don’t think the expectation was for English to ruck one out the whole season. Martin is cooked and Sweet looked a mile off up until last week.

We rucked two out for most of last season including the GF. The thinking that the coaches still refuse to play two rucks should be dead in the water. We just haven’t had the cattle this season and are light on across the list.

The English/Sweet ruck team is just like lasts years ruck set up except English is now No1. Throws a bit of a spanner in the works.

In regards to the development of Sweet. Do you believe he should do so in the 1’s regardless of form/performance?
Plenty of rucks changed hands last off-season.

Coaches/list management to blame if we are “light on across the list”…
 
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Shacf501

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Just watched the game over again, Bailey Dale has improved tremendously however a couple of times he pulled out of contests when he could have spoiled especially when he was in front...

not a criticism just an observation...
 

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