Review Dogs d Suns 90-79 - Rd 18, 2021

Remove this Banner Ad

Cousin Ben

Team Captain
Mar 27, 2009
387
258
Central Vic
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Re Bont - you don't deserve to get in the votes with 15 clangers, in my view. And you could tell Bont was annoyed at himself too. I reckon Champion Data have got it about right tonight - I think Macrae was clearly our best player - and Garcia, English, Smith, Keath and Daniel all had good games too. (Very happy about how Garcia is building.) Halfway through the game I was thinking Bont should take a rest next week Libba-style. But I think he actually moved pretty well tonight. It was just his disposal was weirdly off - by both hand and foot. I have no idea why. I guess that happens sometimes.

Also was very pleased with Weightman sticking at it with his best efforts when luck was working against him. He plays for frees a bit too much and makes some stupid attempts to fly for marks, but those quibbles will be ironed out with time. He's a beauty, I reckon.

And how good is it to see a forward kicking like Marra was? Hopefully he can keep that up. A tall who can lead, mark the ball at its highest point, and kick straight is exactly what we need for our 3rd tall. A definite immediate upgrade on Hannan or Wallis.

Getting worried about Bruce and Crozier's form. Crozier can be replaced by Wood (if Wood stays fit when he returns). But there is no replacement for Bruce this year, so hopefully he can pull it together.
As we await the Hun's predictable verdict, I note with interest that Nathan Brown have given the Bont BoG (9 votes) on Ch9's Sunday Footy Show. These outlets sure love plumping up their award ladders. Or could it be that we've got it wrong. We might know tomorrow with the release of the coach's votes.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Libbaaaa

Team Captain
Jun 1, 2021
591
1,387
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Reckon some of the Touk Miller comments on here are off the mark. He was very constructive and damaging last night as usual, had 8 score involvements to Bonts 4. Both were excellent.
He is an an absolute gun, but never did I think Touk is really getting off the chain.

Side note, score involvements are such a silly stat. You could have a handball in your defensive 50 and then 10 possessions later a goal is scored and it’s counts as a score involvement.
 

Wetdog

I really am Aker.
Jun 23, 2008
2,147
3,833
Williamstown
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Melbourne Victory
OMG another positive poster, X_box_X we gotta stick together, Sh!t's getting real around here. You would think we were 2nd last, not 2nd like too many posters on here would leave you to believe.
I'm f@#ken stoked where the dogs are on the ladder. If you told me at the start year following our defeat to St.Kilda we would be 2nd in the AFL and 1st in the VFL I'd be stooked as I am now. You can shove a handful of diamonds up some people's @sses and they still complain. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I f@#ken love the dog's always have, it's an ultimate underdog story saved from financial ruin from loyal supporters. I use to catch the boat over from tassie just to catch a game at the western oval or as I used to call it...a bogan family reunion.
I loved the players that took paycuts in the late '80s and early '90s just to stay with the dogs for the love and loyalty of Footscray, (South Melb and Fitzroy couldn't do it) I'm so ecstatic at where the dog's are financially in the covid-19 sh!t times.

We should be praising Sammy P for help build this team(AFL/VFL) into a powerhouse team.
The brilliance of the Bont, he's the best player at his age I've seen.
Every team needs a Macrae to win a premmie, Keathy was fantastic again and Dunk's was back.
Career games for JUH and Garcia.

What do most of our supporters talk about, who was the sh!test on the team? Fair dinkum, it's like being in a room full of supermodels and we got supporters complaining that there are a couple of ugly people here.
How did we get so offended by everything?????? Enjoy the friggen ride

And for those that can't get simple joy out of watching bulldogs footy.
Call lifeline!!!!
Beautiful post mate. I’d love to have a beer with you.
 

yebiga

Julian Assange - The Only Great Australian
Aug 1, 2008
14,625
21,234
Post-Modern Wonderland
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
If you have 15 clangers, it means you must be getting an awful lot of possession. Especially when most of those possessions are in the fierce midfield battles, not dinky little short passes or handball receives.

Bont had a game high 18 CPs. And as Mutt said he took the game on and lifted the whole side in that second quarter. That's the term that won us the game.

His teammates would know he's struggling with niggles too. Those sorts of inspiring acts don't show up on the stats sheet.

I do agree about Touk Miller being BoG though. He was everywhere.
The Suns have got some very promising young players. They have a bright future and will make the finals by 2023, maybe even next year.
I thought Bont was enormous - one of his most dominant displays.
I think we have become acclimatised to expect so much from him that unless he single handled wins the game we are likely to give someone else the credit.
Sure Took got a lot of the ball and was great but it was great within normal standard - what the Bont did is not in Took's repertoire - it might not be in anyones
Bont charged thru 4 or more Suns out of congestion on 4 occasions - gave out a handball followed up, regathered the ball, broke another tackle hand balls to clear player with goal scoring opportunity. How do you even score that on Dream team or super coach?
If I voting its Bont by a mile BOG.
 

yebiga

Julian Assange - The Only Great Australian
Aug 1, 2008
14,625
21,234
Post-Modern Wonderland
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Given we had a crack of reconfiguring our small medium forwards, I thought their performance, along with Jamarra of course, was the most pleasing aspect of the performance.

Love Garcia's attack on the footy and burst. Reckon he's in our best team and will be an asset when the game is tough in finals.

JJ produced a heap of smothers and pressure acts, kicked 2 goals and had 8 score involvements, more than anyone else for us. Great game for a pressure forward.

McNeil has a habit of bobbing up when required and made a few telling contributions. On the fringes of best 22 but was ok as winger and half forward yesterday so solid depth at worst. Been good for a 19yo rookie.

Weightman had a poor first half trying to be the main man but worked into the game nicely.

All in all a substantial improvement on the Hannan and Wallis weeks
For me that was the first game McNeil earned his spot in the side. It is validation for persisting with him. Still has room for improvement but he can hold his head high this week.
 

the dog's kennel

Premiership Player
Jan 7, 2007
3,438
5,290
The Land of Baileys
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I thought Bont was enormous - one of his most dominant displays.
I think we have become acclimatised to expect so much from him that unless he single handled wins the game we are likely to give someone else the credit.
Sure Took got a lot of the ball and was great but it was great within normal standard - what the Bont did is not in Took's repertoire - it might not be in anyones
Bont charged thru 4 or more Suns out of congestion on 4 occasions - gave out a handball followed up, regathered the ball, broke another tackle hand balls to clear player with goal scoring opportunity. How do you even score that on Dream team or super coach?
If I voting its Bont by a mile BOG.
It's an interesting topic for debate. There are a wide range of views! I think on the internet people have a tendency to polarise in these kinds of debates - as they argue both sides become more extreme in the way they express their position (not that I'm accusing anyone of that so far). But to that end, I have to acknowledge that there were at least 3 or 4 times that Bont broke through attempted tackles or congestion and dished it off to a Dogs player's distinct advantage. I'm certainly not suggesting he had a BAD game.

But personally, I put a lot of weight on efficient disposal. I think Bont's classic 25 possession games with 4 or 5 laser-focussed kicks over 50m directly to a target in the 50, and 1 or 2 contested marks in the 50 are what make him the best player in the league. Whereas this game he was more of a bullocking type player - very impressive in terms of effort, and undoubtedly impactful on the game, but not as high as his usual standard in my view. And he sprayed the ball a lot. A number of his "burst through the congestion" type plays led to him then bombing the ball directly to GC defenders. And I don't think i've seen him completely miss that many handpasses for ages. It was very unBont-like for his open handpasses to be that untidy - usually he's nailing them even when the player he's passing to is behind him.

Whereas by contrast, I thought Macrae hit some particularly good passes yesterday and Keath was a man mountain. I guess your judgement of Bont's performance will vary according to what you value more between the winning of possession or precise ball movement.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

dogwatch

Premium Platinum
Jun 17, 2009
23,543
37,266
Canberra
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Arsenal
A question for Oliver Gigacz or indeed anyone who might have access to such stats ...

Do we keep stats on players who register possessions from kicking out after a behind has been scored? With the new rules this year you almost never see someone kick out from within the goal square. They invariably run outside the area to gain as much ground as possible and to try to break up the opposition's defensive formation. Whether they kick it or handball it their subsequent disposal is then presumably counted as a regular stat and is generally indistinguishable from any stats collected during general play. Even before the new rule came in players like Heath Shaw used to rack up huge kicking stats every game which was impressive until you realised that many of them came from playing on out of the goal square after a behind had been scored.

My reason for asking is that I saw Bailey Dale just before half time (probably when kicking out) and I had a sudden realisation that I had barely sighted him before then. After the game I was looking through the stats and was shocked to see he had had 20 kicks. Now he did seem to come into the game more in the second half but it still didn't seem like a typical 30-possession 20-kick game to me. So I was wondering how many of Dale's possessions came from kickouts ... noting that the Suns scored 13 behinds and Dale is frequently the one who brings it back into play.

For the record I am a believer in Dale. Last year he struggled as a half forward but the switch to defence has been a revelation. I think he's had a great season and might even be an AA chance. However I also think people sometimes look at the raw stats when thinking about who played well and see "Oh,20 kicks ... He must have had a great game!" To my eye yesterday he was OK but wasn't in our best half dozen.
 

Mattdougie

Cancelled
Suspended
Jun 29, 2013
19,344
19,580
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Y
A question for Oliver Gigacz or indeed anyone who might have access to such stats ...

Do we keep stats on players who register possessions from kicking out after a behind has been scored? With the new rules this year you almost never see someone kick out from within the goal square. They invariably run outside the area to gain as much ground as possible and to try to break up the opposition's defensive formation. Whether they kick it or handball it their subsequent disposal is then presumably counted as a regular stat and is generally indistinguishable from any stats collected during general play. Even before the new rule came in players like Heath Shaw used to rack up huge kicking stats every game which was impressive until you realised that many of them came from playing on out of the goal square after a behind had been scored.

My reason for asking is that I saw Bailey Dale just before half time (probably when kicking out) and I had a sudden realisation that I had barely sighted him before then. After the game I was looking through the stats and was shocked to see he had had 20 kicks. Now he did seem to come into the game more in the second half but it still didn't seem like a typical 30-possession 20-kick game to me. So I was wondering how many of Dale's possessions came from kickouts ... noting that the Suns scored 13 behinds and Dale is frequently the one who brings it back into play.

For the record I am a believer in Dale. Last year he struggled as a half forward but the switch to defence has been a revelation. I think he's had a great season and might even be an AA chance. However I also think people sometimes look at the raw stats when thinking about who played well and see "Oh,20 kicks ... He must have had a great game!" To my eye yesterday he was OK but wasn't in our best half dozen.
If you run out of the square it’s counted as a possession.
 

dogwatch

Premium Platinum
Jun 17, 2009
23,543
37,266
Canberra
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Arsenal
Not sure if it’s been mentioned here , but It was blowing a gale .. legitimate strong wind warnings etc . Perhaps that’s influenced some of the marking in our fwd 50
It may have been a factor but Gold Coast handled it better. We were comprehensively outmarked yesterday.

Marks 99-70 (possibly inflated a bit by their early chip-kick game)
CMs 14-5 (a better indication IMO)
 

threenewpadlocks

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 10, 2012
11,774
16,022
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
A question for Oliver Gigacz or indeed anyone who might have access to such stats ...

Do we keep stats on players who register possessions from kicking out after a behind has been scored? With the new rules this year you almost never see someone kick out from within the goal square. They invariably run outside the area to gain as much ground as possible and to try to break up the opposition's defensive formation. Whether they kick it or handball it their subsequent disposal is then presumably counted as a regular stat and is generally indistinguishable from any stats collected during general play. Even before the new rule came in players like Heath Shaw used to rack up huge kicking stats every game which was impressive until you realised that many of them came from playing on out of the goal square after a behind had been scored.

My reason for asking is that I saw Bailey Dale just before half time (probably when kicking out) and I had a sudden realisation that I had barely sighted him before then. After the game I was looking through the stats and was shocked to see he had had 20 kicks. Now he did seem to come into the game more in the second half but it still didn't seem like a typical 30-possession 20-kick game to me. So I was wondering how many of Dale's possessions came from kickouts ... noting that the Suns scored 13 behinds and Dale is frequently the one who brings it back into play.

For the record I am a believer in Dale. Last year he struggled as a half forward but the switch to defence has been a revelation. I think he's had a great season and might even be an AA chance. However I also think people sometimes look at the raw stats when thinking about who played well and see "Oh,20 kicks ... He must have had a great game!" To my eye yesterday he was OK but wasn't in our best half dozen.
They don't get a possession for the stat (ie CP+UP added together).

It's also true for things like soccers off the ground.

Dale had 30 disposals and 20 possessions yesterday.
 

dogwatch

Premium Platinum
Jun 17, 2009
23,543
37,266
Canberra
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Arsenal
They don't get a possession for the stat (ie CP+UP added together).

It's also true for things like soccers off the ground.

Dale had 30 disposals and 20 possessions yesterday.
So can I infer he kicked out and played on 10 times which registered as 10 of his 20 kicks?

I guess it raises the more general question of how the stats people define a possession as distinct from a disposal, which I think is where you were heading.
Is there a recognised definition of each?
 

Mattdougie

Cancelled
Suspended
Jun 29, 2013
19,344
19,580
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
That's my point. Does any stat-keeper count the number of times players get that stat?
Possession or disposal it counts for one of them. Taylor was discussing it in our game v the swans and how one of their players had played on 87 out of 88 times and got a stat for each one.

Dale was invisible in the first half but had a beer second half but overall was poor like most of his mates. Has been down the last few games imo.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
7,561
9,039
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I don't believe disposals are broken down to kick-in/non kick-in... at least not anywhere publicly.

As 3np said, there is a difference between possessions and disposals. He didn't win a possession to have the disposal from the kick in, so they aren't counted as possessions.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
7,561
9,039
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
So can I infer he kicked out and played on 10 times which registered as 10 of his 20 kicks?

I guess it raises the more general question of how the stats people define a possession as distinct from a disposal, which I think is where you were heading.
Is there a recognised definition of each?
You couldn't infer that exactly because there are other ways to gain a disposal without a possession. But you could assume knowing that Dale takes most of the kick ins and GC scored 13 behinds that likely a majority of those 10 disposals came from kick ins.

Disposal - Legally getting rid of the ball, via a handball or kick.
Possessions are just the combination of contested and uncontested possessions, each of which can came about in various and defined ways.
 

Oliver Gigacz

Premium Platinum
May 14, 2009
1,931
4,138
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
A question for Oliver Gigacz or indeed anyone who might have access to such stats ...

Do we keep stats on players who register possessions from kicking out after a behind has been scored? With the new rules this year you almost never see someone kick out from within the goal square. They invariably run outside the area to gain as much ground as possible and to try to break up the opposition's defensive formation. Whether they kick it or handball it their subsequent disposal is then presumably counted as a regular stat and is generally indistinguishable from any stats collected during general play. Even before the new rule came in players like Heath Shaw used to rack up huge kicking stats every game which was impressive until you realised that many of them came from playing on out of the goal square after a behind had been scored.

My reason for asking is that I saw Bailey Dale just before half time (probably when kicking out) and I had a sudden realisation that I had barely sighted him before then. After the game I was looking through the stats and was shocked to see he had had 20 kicks. Now he did seem to come into the game more in the second half but it still didn't seem like a typical 30-possession 20-kick game to me. So I was wondering how many of Dale's possessions came from kickouts ... noting that the Suns scored 13 behinds and Dale is frequently the one who brings it back into play.

For the record I am a believer in Dale. Last year he struggled as a half forward but the switch to defence has been a revelation. I think he's had a great season and might even be an AA chance. However I also think people sometimes look at the raw stats when thinking about who played well and see "Oh,20 kicks ... He must have had a great game!" To my eye yesterday he was OK but wasn't in our best half dozen.
Y


If you run out of the square it’s counted as a possession.
Kick in data is recorded and is publically available from the AFL API (if you dig deep enough). Dale had 9 kick-ins yesterday and he played on from all 9 which as MD pointed out means they are counted as disposals...

Screen Shot 2021-07-18 at 2.35.42 pm.png


For the season here is our kick in table...
Screen Shot 2021-07-18 at 2.42.30 pm.png
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad