Review Dogs def Freo 93-65 - Rd 13, 2021

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mcgleereturns

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Just about everyone who saw him play at his best would agree. Would even shade Wayne Carey, I think, but I'd take Carey for sustained performance over a longer period.

Naughty might just become that good, but not yet (and Carey, Templeton WERE that good at the same age.
Templeton was a supreme being at CHF in 1980 in a terrible team ( the best individual year of any CHF then destroyed by injury) and one of many great full forwards of the golden era of 70s and 80s for forwards. At 23 he had 2 Colemans and a Brownlow in five years of uninjured seasons. One game in 1980 he had 32 disposals and 19 marks. We literally turned up to watch Kelvin play because the rest of the team was depressing to watch. Naughton has much to do still to reach his level.

Having said that, Naughts is just as exciting to watch, probably more. He’s more Modra and Kelvin was more Dunstall. We are blessed to be able to turn up in anticipation of seeing Astro rule the skies while at the same time see Bont do everything else at the same time.


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Guido

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There's significantly more variation in the location that players take their shot from over a small sample than you would think.
We're not going to agree on anything here.

I personally think set shot accuracy is THE most significantly improvable aspect of anyone's game, as you're 100% in control of every aspect of it. Of course angles, distance, wind, crowd, time of game, fatigue, mental toughness and the moment will all play their role.

But can someone go from kicking accuracy of 5 or 5.5 out of 10 to 6.5 or 7 out of 10? IMO, yes. If you think that's impossible, that's fine.
 
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SupercededMan

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Templeton was a supreme being at CHF in 1980 in a terrible team ( the best individual year of any CHF then destroyed by injury) and one of many great full forwards of the golden era of 70s and 80s for forwards. At 23 he had 2 Colemans and a Brownlow in five years of uninjured seasons. One game in 1980 he had 32 disposals and 19 marks. We literally turned up to watch Kelvin play because the rest of the team was depressing to watch. Naughton has much to do still to reach his level.

Having said that, Naughts is just as exciting to watch, probably more. He’s more Modra and Kelvin was more Dunstall. We are blessed to be able to turn up in anticipation of seeing Astro rule the skies while at the same time see Bont do everything else at the same time.


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Great post.
 

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immortalmike

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Not really

He is only in there as a stop gap at the moment and was infinitely better than Lipi.
That’s where we differ. Would much prefer Lipinski in the middle as at least he offers some resistance. But I don't expect many to agree.

What I don't get is that Caleb was much better earlier in the year at the physical stuff. He was sticking tackles and not losing contests. He was flung two feet away during most of the contests he was in last night.
 

SupercededMan

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Naughton may be Astro but he’s not qualified to fly a plane - don’t knock The Groaner :)


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Re Groaner: older posters here would remember him also 'starring' in the team photo for the Footscray Mail in the 80s.

He thought flopping the old fella out was a great laugh, and the 'error' would be picked up by some eagle-eyed sub-editor prior to publication.

Imagine the look on Doris from Duke Street's face when she saw that, lol. (Probably kept it as a memento, ahem).

Groaner. What a legend.
 
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doggies ftw

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That’s where we differ. Would much prefer Lipinski in the middle as at least he offers some resistance. But I don't expect many to agree.

What I don't get is that Caleb was much better earlier in the year at the physical stuff. He was sticking tackles and not losing contests. He was flung two feet away during most of the contests he was in last night.
Daniel is a brilliant tackler for his size, and also with his physicality in the contest against bigger players. The Henry contest was a stinker but that’s an outlier not the norm. Crazy if you’d rather Lip in there tbh. It’s never gonna be a strength of his obviously due to sheer size but he makes up for it. He was great yesterday, so clean in the contest
 

Wetdog

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Funny thing to me is that the other whipping boy of the backline, Cordy, DID play in a Premiership team, even kicked the first goal in our GF.

There must be something Bev sees in him that the BigFooty MC can't.
That was a clutch goal. It really set the scene early.

But I digress.
 

threenewpadlocks

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We're not going to agree on anything here.

I personally think set shot accuracy is THE most significantly improvable aspect of anyone's game, as you're 100% in control of every aspect of it.

Can someone go from kicking accuracy of 5 or 5.5 out of 10 to 6.5 or 7 out of 10? IMO, yes. If you think that's impossible, that's fine.
I think it's impossible because if they could, million dollar AFL clubs would have figured it out and we would see with our own training eyes that they would have done it.

Mathew Inness has a PhD in sports science. We have others who have done years of research to PhD levels for acquiring skills. For example, David Rath - who is now St Kilda's head of football - was the AIS's head biomechanicst for about a decade before going into the AFL. He literally spend every waking hour trying to figure out how professional athletes get as good as they are, and breaking down the fundamentals of things like kicking a football. If a smart bloke who has spent 20 years of his life trying to figure out how humans move their bodies to propel a football through big goalposts works, and then how that relates to training methodology, means that St Kilda don't do a whole bunch of extra goalkicking practice as it's not a good use of time and resources, then that's why I think it's impossible.

Then you combine with the hundreds of millions of dollars that get spent across the 18 football departments, all trying to figure out how to gain an edge in goalkicking, where there might be gaps.

I don't mean to be belligerent in this thread (which I do come across as), but there's so many misconceptions and fallacies in understanding how the game is played, I feel like I have to post in here over and over.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that the amount of time, thought and effort into how to win AFL games through skill development and execution is vast and significant. The AFL is a bush league in many aspects of its operation, but the marginal gains in sports science isn't one of them:


1623063588412.png


For example, he worked with us from 2015 to 2018, when he took up a job at the AFL.

Now look at his credentials: Countless papers, he's written the globally used university textbook on sports skill acquisition, and supervised almost 20 PhD students himself.

Given the above, when consulting with the AFL club, thought, "well maybe a bit more goalkicking practice can turn a 50% goalkicker into a 70% one" and it worked, we would have done that.
 

Wetdog

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Not sure if anyone cares but...

Someone who works at the club told me that when Bruce came off in the first or second quarter it was because he needed to poop.
Another consequence of playing at a weird time slot in a different time zone.

I for one did not appreciate it at all. And I suspect Josh concurs.
 

dogwatch

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I've been out so I skipped over much of the goalkicking debate that got posted over the last couple of hours, so excuse me if this point has already been made...

Naughton seems to have two distinct goalkicking problems:

1. Fluffing a straightforward drop punt from a relatively easy angle and not far out (say < 35m)

My perception has always been that he is about an average kick of the football in general play (some disagree on this I know). So I suspect this problem is more a mental thing, but I acknowledge there may also be something in his balldrop, body position etc.. It's just hard to know whether the technique things derive from his mental approach or are independent of it. Many players have developed the yips with their easy set shots - Bont last year and this year is a topical example. It's possible it comes from tightening up and not being fully relaxed (noting also Naughton frequently checks the shot clock which probably doesn't help with the anxiety levels). A popular technique to overcome this mental problem is simply to pick out a person in the crowd who is directly in line with the centre of the goals and then direct your kick as a 40-50m pass to that person. I can't guarantee it will solve his woes but it certainly wouldn't need 1000s of practice shots. Especially when there's no crowd at training sessions. Generally he shouldn't miss those "passes" by more than a few degrees which would be good enough for a goal about 80-90% of the time. And remember the presence of a crowd may be part of the problem anyway, so practising in an empty stadium might not be the most useful drill.

2. Kicking goals around the corner from a tight angle

This is quite a different issue in my opinion. I think it's largely technique and much less a mental thing. As a defender for most of his junior career he wouldn't have done these very often, and besides it has only become really popular in the last 5-10 years so he probably wouldn't even have encountered it much in his junior career. To solve this one DOES require a lot of practice. Muscle memory. Hard-wiring of the mental calibration needed to get it right. Rather than tinker with 100s of those practice shots in mid-season I'd suggest the time to work on it is in the off-season, when the number of "feet-minutes" is not so critical and may not even be restricted. Besides it's highly unlikely that before September a dozen or so 1-hour sessions will make a huge difference in his ability to execute this shot.
 
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WallyStringhaus

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And I know Naughton is more likely than any other player in the league to take that mark in the first place.

And I know that he might have taken that mark because he either did more time on the weights machine than kicking for goal.

And I know that he might have pulled his hamstring if he did extra goalkicking practice during the entire week.

That's what I've been droning on about this entire thread.
Not from Bruce's own lack of effort though.

20210607_205900.jpg


He started that lead in the goalsquare, created the space and was ignored.

It's a separate issue I know, but I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen this happen. Instead we went to Naughton who was outnumbered at the top of the square and the contest was killed.

The sad thing is I have more confidence in the goal being kicked if we'd honoured Bruce's work and he has the shot from 45m, than I do in if Naught had have plucked the contested mark and had a shot from 20m out.
 

Mutt

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But this is fundamentally not proven by the fact that we can record his kicking for goal and compare them to league average from the same location.

For example before this season, across 100+ shots at goal, his goalkicking "only" cost us 15 points.



1) there's a statistical basis to sampling and regressing to the mean. You can't selectively choose Bruce's kicking this season and ignore his last year, because he still is the same player.

2) Bruce has kicked multiple goals from the goalsquare (more than Naughton, think about the North game)

View attachment 1149510

Per shot charting the league average for his 12 shots was to kick 8 goals, given about 6 of the shots were less than 20m out.
This is an argument that says that Naughton's kicking for goal is only a little below average...therefore it doesn't need work. I say if we encouraged Naughton to give goal kicking coaching and practice a huge priority for the remainder of the season (or even better, for the remainder of his career) then Naughton could be the greatest forward of his generation. Without that he is destined to be pretty good, but not great.
 

SupercededMan

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That was a clutch goal. It really set the scene early.

But I digress.
And for that - I'll be honest - I'll be eternally grateful to him. Good, poor, honest, whatever, people now think of him, that kick got the boys up and about.

From memory, it was a very difficult shot from the forward flank/pocket boundary line. Guts.
 

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ScragCity

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Not from Bruce's own lack of effort though.

View attachment 1149571

He started that lead in the goalsquare, created the space and was ignored.

It's a separate issue I know, but I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen this happen. Instead we went to Naughton who was outnumbered at the top of the square and the contest was killed.

The sad thing is I have more confidence in the goal being kicked if we'd honoured Bruce's work and he has the shot from 45m, than I do in if Naught had have plucked the contested mark and had a shot from 20m out.
Yeah that one definitely looked like Bruce was on. Although from looking at that screenshot it looks like Freo have a spare defender there to Bruce's left. Maybe English was aware of him dropping in to intercept in a position from which they can rebound pretty quickly.
 

immortalmike

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Daniel is a brilliant tackler for his size, and also with his physicality in the contest against bigger players. The Henry contest was a stinker but that’s an outlier not the norm. Crazy if you’d rather Lip in there tbh. It’s never gonna be a strength of his obviously due to sheer size but he makes up for it. He was great yesterday, so clean in the contest
The problem is the Henry contest was far from an outlier last night. I also thought he was far from great last night. He coughed up possessions, used the handball too often and had almost a negative impact in the contest and defensively. As you've said he has the ability so I wonder if last night was an off night.

Also personally I don't agree with the consensus that Lipinski doesn't go when it's his turn. He's not Libba and never will be but I think a little groupthink has crept onto this board about him. I think he was dropped more for his wasteful possessions against Melbourne moreso than his perceived weakness in the contest.
 

Mattdougie

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The problem is the Henry contest was far from an outlier last night. I also thought he was far from great last night. He coughed up possessions, used the handball too often and had almost a negative impact in the contest and defensively. As you've said he has the ability so I wonder if last night was an off night.

Also personally I don't agree with the consensus that Lipinski doesn't go when it's his turn. He's not Libba and never will be but I think a little groupthink has crept onto this board about him. I think he was dropped more for his wasteful possessions against Melbourne moreso than his perceived weakness in the contest.
Sorry mate

Lipi is softer than my left a$$ cheek after 18 months with one leg.

Add his complete lack of effort defensively and he is miles off
 

Triple Baileys

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That’s where we differ. Would much prefer Lipinski in the middle as at least he offers some resistance. But I don't expect many to agree.

What I don't get is that Caleb was much better earlier in the year at the physical stuff. He was sticking tackles and not losing contests. He was flung two feet away during most of the contests he was in last night.
Lipinski was playing better a couple of seasons ago in 2019. He was on the verge of star status but his form has cooled since then. In 2019, I feel he was doing a lot more bullocking in the packs and getting some grunty possessions inside. Some of the time this was in the forward line from throw ins and ball ups.

He is a decent size for a mid. I am wondering if he should bulk up heaps more and increase the strength kpi's in the gym, lose a metre but become more effective in close. He has skills, not just disposal skills, he also has something of an overhead game. I think he might be able to turn himself into a low gears expert who gets lots of touches in close, can take a tackle and break a tackle - he was kind of doing this in 2019.
 

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Re Groaner: older posters here would remember him also 'starring' in the team photo for the Footscray Mail in the 80s.

He thought flopping the old fella out was a great laugh, and the 'error' would be picked up by some eagle-eyed sub-editor prior to publication.

Imagine the look on Doris from Duke Street's face when she saw that, lol. (Probably kept it as a memento, ahem).

Groaner. What a legend.
Whilst Robert 'This is your Captain Speaking' Groenewegen was a legendary joker in that team, I'm pretty sure that the star of that Footscray Mail photo was actually Mark Kellett.
 

SupercededMan

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Whilst Robert 'This is your Captain Speaking' Groenewegen was a legendary joker in that team, I'm pretty sure that the star of that Footscray Mail photo was actually Mark Kellett.
I may be wrong, but I recall actually seeing that team photo. Seared into my memory.

I wonder if someone can find a copy of it somewhere.
 

BEaston

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Cordy is 4cm shorter than Gardiner and 7cm shorter than Young, a lot lighter and slower than those two.

He may be ok playing on a 190-195cm third tall but is no use to us at all against really big forwards. if they are quick, he is doubly stuffed.

Watch him against Lynch this year or Harry McKay or Curnow or Kennedy or Darling in the past and you can see why he is reserved for certain roles only.

Bevo mentioned that we bought Gardiner because we are coming up against bigger forwards lines (ie Geelong and West Coast) soon. makes perfect sense to transition Gardiner back.
Yeah definitely. It's why I had that 3rd "tall" spot for grabs between him and Wood pre-season.
 

SupercededMan

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Whilst Robert 'This is your Captain Speaking' Groenewegen was a legendary joker in that team, I'm pretty sure that the star of that Footscray Mail photo was actually Mark Kellett.
LOL, I found this. (I am short on time, bit of a luddite when it comes to linking hypertext, but there is a thread on our board titled "Robert Groenwegen" for anyone interested):

" ... Nah. He was a shocker. About 6' 4" but couldn't play.

In all fairness, he did a knee early on and after that couldn't change direction and was soooo slow.

Will forever remain famous for dropping his schlong out for the team picture, which was missed by the editor, and made it into the Footscray Mail.

On the infamous flight to Hawaii in '85 Groena got hold of the hosties p.a. system "Ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Groenewegen speaking, we are currently cruising at 10,000 metres. I hope you are enjoying the flight because it will be your last - we're going down".

Was funny in 1985, today you'd get 10 years. "
 

Fossie 32

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GUNS OF THE WEST

BRAD ELBOROUGH



THE Western Bulldogs took advantage of a banged-up Fremantle on Sunday night to became the first visiting side to beat the Dockers at Perth Stadium this season.
Before Sunday, only West Coast had beaten the Dockers in Perth.
Going into the final term, the home side looked up for the fight again, before losing three players in the space of two minutes.
The Dockers limped to the final siren, with only one fit player left on the bench for most of the final term.
And the Dogs took advantage, turning an eight-point three-quarter-time lead into a 28-point win.
It wasn’t the most convincing response after losing to Melbourne last week, but it was enough to keep the Dogs at least one game clear in second spot on the ladder.
If it wasn’t for Aaron Naughton’s troubles in front of goal, the Dogs would have won more convincingly.
Naughton took eight marks inside the Dogs’ forward 50m and 13 for the game. But he finished with 1.5.
Those misses didn’t hurt. though, like inaccuracies cost other teams this round.
Eight of his teammates hit the scoreboard throughout the game.
And the mark Naughton took to earn his third behind will be shown a few times on TV replays this week.
CASUALTY WARD
THOSE two minutes at the start of the fourth term stopped all momentum Fremantle took into the quarter.
Having trailed by 22 points earlier in the game, the margin was only seven points when disaster hit. The Dockers lost three players to injury, ending their run for victory.
Nat Fyfe came off secondbest from a collision with Taylor Duryea, and limped off with a shoulder injury.
Brennan Cox limped off with what looked a bad hamstring injury, while ruckman Sean Darcy was already on the bench with a similar issue.
Another key defender, Griffin Logue, was subbed out of the game with concussion late in the third term, after a marking contest with Naughton.
The Dogs’ main concern is ruckman Stefan Martin, who was subbed out of the game in the third term with a shoulder injury of his own. Martin was playing his first game since being sidelined with an achilles issue after round 7.
Tim English had treatment on a knock to the knee in the final term, but returned to play out the game in the ruck for the Bulldogs.
DOGS OFF LEASH
THE travel west had no impact on the Bulldogs’ preparation. They hit the ground running from the first bounce.
They’d had two shots at goal inside the first minute of the game - and Marcus Bontempelli was involved in both.
It was a clear indication of what was to come, for him and his side.
The Doggies looked set for a big night, having scored from all five of their first five entries inside their attacking 50m area. But they missed their chances, putting only 2.3 on the board with those chances.
They should have led by more than seven points at the first break, after having six set shots at goal for the term.
Cox took six marks in defence for the Dockers in that first quarter, a great reply after being well beaten by Charlie Dixon a week earlier.
FORWARD WOES
WHEN David Mundy and Andrew Brayshaw got the Dockers going, they had little in attack to make the most of their work.
Fremantle had one more foray into attack than the Dogs in the first half, but trailed by 16 points at the main break.
Having leading goalkicker Matt Taberner pulled from the selected team before the game because of his ankle injury didn’t help.
A lot of responsibility fell on to key forwards Josh Treacy and Rory Lobb.
The more experienced of the two, Lobb struggled early.
Marked closely by Alex Keath and Ryan Gardner, he had only one possession in the first half.


 

mcgleereturns

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LOL, I found this. (I am short on time, bit of a luddite when it comes to linking hypertext, but there is a thread on our board titled "Robert Groenwegen" for anyone interested):

" ... Nah. He was a shocker. About 6' 4" but couldn't play.
On the infamous flight to Hawaii in '85 Groena got hold of the hosties p.a. system "Ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Groenewegen speaking, we are currently cruising at 10,000 metres. I hope you are enjoying the flight because it will be your last - we're going down".

Was funny in 1985, today you'd get 10 years. "
10 years? He’d be in front of a firing squad at Guantanamo!


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dogwatch

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Point to exactly where I said we are a bad team.

And also point out to which one of those statements is factually incorrect.

I simply don't want to see us become the new Port/Geelong and destroy weak sides but lose to the other good sides over and over and over on their day and in finals.

If we go out in straight sets with this list I'll cry.
Apologies if I misread your intent but perhaps you should read your post again. If you thought we were a good team you did a pretty good job of disguising it. At the end of a litany of damning criticisms you said "Can’t really find a positive except Bont being the goat and Naughton getting 6 scoring opportunities out of mostly terrible inside 50s."

Which statements are factually incorrect? None of the player criticisms are factually correct or incorrect - they are just opinions. Opinions and hyperbole are fine but don't confuse them with demonstrable facts. I thought the criticism of English in particular was unwarranted.

I'm with you on the concerns about our ability to stand up in September. It's a possibility. However I'm hopeful that the return of some of our LTIs will give us a bit more class and a bit more steel. Especially Dunkley and Treloar.

I thought it was a decent win even if it was a bit of a grind at times. To put it in perspective it was our first win over Freo in Perth since 2009 and our first ever win at Perth Stadium (5 games there). Our all time winning record in WA is <25%. I'll take a gritty 28 point win each and every time.

Chin up. Subject to our major stars staying injury-free I'm upbeat about our prospects in September.
 

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