Review Dogs def Freo 93-65 - Rd 13, 2021

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BEaston

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Daniel is a brilliant tackler for his size, and also with his physicality in the contest against bigger players. The Henry contest was a stinker but that’s an outlier not the norm. Crazy if you’d rather Lip in there tbh. It’s never gonna be a strength of his obviously due to sheer size but he makes up for it. He was great yesterday, so clean in the contest
How good was Daniel's tackle on some Freo bloke that got the ball in the air? Just lined him up, waited for him to land and wrapped him perfectly. Was absolutely textbook.
 

BEaston

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Was Naughton at the club when Macca was still around? I can't remember, but anyway, Naughts may be taking his approach to kicking goals.... hoping they take care of themselves.*


*backed by sports science
 

BEaston

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^ Jokes. FWIW I agree with both sides of the discussion really. Some good arguments made by 3np but there could also be some quick gains in developing a routine he's comfy with, if he doesn't have one already. I actually don't think he's been that bad this season anyway.
 

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LOL, I found this. (I am short on time, bit of a luddite when it comes to linking hypertext, but there is a thread on our board titled "Robert Groenwegen" for anyone interested):

" ... Nah. He was a shocker. About 6' 4" but couldn't play.

In all fairness, he did a knee early on and after that couldn't change direction and was soooo slow.

Will forever remain famous for dropping his schlong out for the team picture, which was missed by the editor, and made it into the Footscray Mail.

On the infamous flight to Hawaii in '85 Groena got hold of the hosties p.a. system "Ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Groenewegen speaking, we are currently cruising at 10,000 metres. I hope you are enjoying the flight because it will be your last - we're going down".

Was funny in 1985, today you'd get 10 years. "
The 'wagon' wasn't a star by any means but was better than many give him credit for. Went alright in the 85 finals if my memory serves me. I also recognise that he is often named as the player who had his 'schlong' out in the photo but believe there was a mix up either in the story or in the photo caption, which again if my memory serves me had Mark Kellett listed at that location in the Mail photo. It is also worth pointing out that Kellett and Groenewegen looked a bit like each other at the time.
 

Guido

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I think it's impossible because if they could, million dollar AFL clubs would have figured it out and we would see with our own training eyes that they would have done it.

Mathew Inness has a PhD in sports science. We have others who have done years of research to PhD levels for acquiring skills. For example, David Rath - who is now St Kilda's head of football - was the AIS's head biomechanicst for about a decade before going into the AFL. He literally spend every waking hour trying to figure out how professional athletes get as good as they are, and breaking down the fundamentals of things like kicking a football. If a smart bloke who has spent 20 years of his life trying to figure out how humans move their bodies to propel a football through big goalposts works, and then how that relates to training methodology, means that St Kilda don't do a whole bunch of extra goalkicking practice as it's not a good use of time and resources, then that's why I think it's impossible.

Then you combine with the hundreds of millions of dollars that get spent across the 18 football departments, all trying to figure out how to gain an edge in goalkicking, where there might be gaps.

I don't mean to be belligerent in this thread (which I do come across as), but there's so many misconceptions and fallacies in understanding how the game is played, I feel like I have to post in here over and over.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that the amount of time, thought and effort into how to win AFL games through skill development and execution is vast and significant. The AFL is a bush league in many aspects of its operation, but the marginal gains in sports science isn't one of them:


View attachment 1149568

For example, he worked with us from 2015 to 2018, when he took up a job at the AFL.

Now look at his credentials: Countless papers, he's written the globally used university textbook on sports skill acquisition, and supervised almost 20 PhD students himself.

Given the above, when consulting with the AFL club, thought, "well maybe a bit more goalkicking practice can turn a 50% goalkicker into a 70% one" and it worked, we would have done that.
There are many ways to skin a cat.

Maradona had none of the above types of people advising him, yet made a ball talk like only a handful of humans ever have since.

Ronaldo would have literally taken *tens of thousands* of practice free kicks, was perfecting free kicks that the game had barely ever seen before - I wonder if sport scientist's advice, limiting him to XX minutes of total training a week, would have made him a better player?

There's players in AFL games who over the last few weeks, that, literally, as they're lining up to take a set shot still don't know if they're going to go with a drop punt or snap. Players looking at the TV/countdown clock *during* their routine. Players texting ex-players for help with their set shots 20 minutes after a game. But sure, things are being run perfectly/outcomes can't be improved because people with qualifications are involved.
 

doggies ftw

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How good was Daniel's tackle on some Freo bloke that got the ball in the air? Just lined him up, waited for him to land and wrapped him perfectly. Was absolutely textbook.
He does it every week! Tough little bastard built like a brick. The Henry contest was a weird one and looked very bad and he rushed a couple of disposals but he’s definitely a long way down the list of people I’d be having a crack at, thought he played great in a different role
 

doggies ftw

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There are many ways to skin a cat.

Maradona had none of the above types of people advising him, yet made a ball talk like only a handful of humans ever have since.

Ronaldo would have literally taken *tens of thousands* of practice free kicks, was perfecting free kicks that the game had barely ever seen before - I wonder if sport scientist's advice, limiting him to XX minutes of total training a week, would have made him a better player?

There's players in AFL games who over the last few weeks, that, literally, as they're lining up to take a set shot still don't know if they're going to go with a drop punt or snap. Players looking at the TV/countdown clock *during* their routine. Players texting ex-players for help with their set shots 20 minutes after a game. But sure, things are being run perfectly/outcomes can't be improved because people with qualifications are involved.
Yeah but old mate wrote a paper on it!!
 

threenewpadlocks

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If people are going to dismiss the field of skill acquisition out of hand "because Maradona existed" it's no different than dismissing the field of climate change "because today was cold", and there's no point having this discussion.
 

dogwatch

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Fremantle v Western Bulldogs

10 Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
8 Aaron Naughton (WB)
4 Andrew Brayshaw (FRE)
3 Tom Liberatore (WB)
3 Jack Macrae (WB)
2 David Mundy (FRE)

I'm guessing Longmuir went
5 Bont​
4 Astro​
3 Brayshaw (FRE)​
2 Mundy (FRE)​
1 Macrae​

Meaning Bevo would have gone
5 Bont​
4 Astro​
3 Libba​
2 Macrae​
1 Brayshaw (FRE)​

But other permutations are possible of course.
 

Guido

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If people are going to dismiss the field of skill acquisition out of hand "because Maradona existed" it's no different than dismissing the field of climate change "because today was cold", and there's no point having this discussion.
You want to play the "my outlook is being dismissed/misrepresented" card, and yet do the exact same thing in the very same sentence.

All I've argued is that repetition may have its place - guys like Matthew Lloyd spending thousands of kicks improving his technique, Lindsay Gilbee putting in dozens of hours of extra training sessions on his own to improve his field kicking, Paul Hudson staying back an hour after every training session to have set shots from 35 metres out in order to master the bread and butter stuff, and the general outlook of repeating something thousands of times can still have its place in the game in improving players. I don't think this is an insane proposition, but your response whenever someone has brought an example up is to dismiss it outright, that the sport scientists know better, it's stupid to assume that there's improvements to be made when people with these credentials are running the show.

I'm happy to accept that sport scientists have a body of knowledge and provide expertise that is critical - but that some sport scientists today may disagree with historically tried and true methods doesn't automatically mean those methods don't have their place. Sport scientists will have many disagreements amongst themselves on what constitutes best practice. In 10, 20, 50 years, I can assure you that many of their methods today will be laughed at, just as we laugh at how things were run decades ago.

And back to the original point - Naughton does not have a routine. Every run up is different, with many set shots, he's looking at the big screen at the ground, other's he's not. I think it's very possible that, say, a hundred hours of 1-1 coaching over the last few years with someone like Matty Lloyd may have had him in a much better spot with his set shots, which could translate to 10-20% improvement, and that it wouldn't necessarily be at the expense of his other strengths. You disagree, we'll leave it at that.
 

Beasley

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Remember Fremantle are bloody hard to beat at home - the crowd always has an effect, especially on umpiring, because people from Perth are so parochial and hate the "easterners", and it gets sucked into the umpiring (as we saw today).

Fremantle have hardly been a good team in the last 4 years or so, but the 28 point margin was still their eighth-worst out of the 31 games at Perth Stadium they've hosted interstate teams. Three of the seven margins worse were 30, 32, and 32.

Winning in Perth is always hard - not beating Fremantle in Perth since 2009 proves that. Take the wins when we can!
Plus we shouldn’t forget our players have had a week away from home and were locked in their hotel rooms for a day and a half before the match ... while Freo players were free to go about their normal daily lives.
A good gutsy win in difficult environment/circumstances.
 

Bulldogs Legend

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Agreed that it’s mental, and probably fatigue and totally agree that we can’t compare stats of goal kickers in the past to now due to the amount of extra work they do. But these two factors are more reason why it’s so important to have a solid routine and a mountain of work behind you in training to look back on. No ones saying It’s gonna be the difference between Naughty going back and kicking 9.0 from all over the park but when he finds himself 30m out directly in front he’s going to be a lot more comfortable and reliable when he knows he’s been putting in the work and nails this same kick 9 in 10 times at training during the week. Right now you can see it in his face he has no confidence when he’s lining up for those kicks.

He only has to wipe out the really bad misses and improve slightly and it will make a huge difference in his game which will then have major flow on effects to other parts of his game, and in turn the rest of the team.
But we are assuming he hasn’t put in a mountain of work and doesn’t have a set routine

He won’t be doing a mountain of work mid season during training as it’s just not practical but who is today he didn’t in preseason?

His looking up at the clock indicates to me he does have s set routine hence why I suggest it’s probably more mental than anything
 

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Bulldogs Legend

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Templeton was a supreme being at CHF in 1980 in a terrible team ( the best individual year of any CHF then destroyed by injury) and one of many great full forwards of the golden era of 70s and 80s for forwards. At 23 he had 2 Colemans and a Brownlow in five years of uninjured seasons. One game in 1980 he had 32 disposals and 19 marks. We literally turned up to watch Kelvin play because the rest of the team was depressing to watch. Naughton has much to do still to reach his level.

Having said that, Naughts is just as exciting to watch, probably more. He’s more Modra and Kelvin was more Dunstall. We are blessed to be able to turn up in anticipation of seeing Astro rule the skies while at the same time see Bont do everything else at the same time.


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Agree KT was the reason I had some pride in my club in my school days and his 15 goals 9 and 1 OOB would have to be the single greatest individual game by a Forward.

i love Naughton but let’s not forget how great KT was before his knee and other injuries
 

Bulldogs Legend

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Re Groaner: older posters here would remember him also 'starring' in the team photo for the Footscray Mail in the 80s.

He thought flopping the old fella out was a great laugh, and the 'error' would be picked up by some eagle-eyed sub-editor prior to publication.

Imagine the look on Doris from Duke Street's face when she saw that, lol. (Probably kept it as a memento, ahem).

Groaner. What a legend.
I believe Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David were big fans and used it as the basis for the Elaine nipple showing Christmas card episode
 
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Zgope1

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I'm loathe to bring it up but is anyone else worried about Daniel's lack of physicality?
He was shrugged so easily by all and sundry last night as well as pushed out of contests with barely a second thought.

If he's going to be attending centre bounces this can't be happening as it will just create a revolving door.
It’s certainly not plan A to have him in there. Fyfe just moved him aside at one point to win the ball.

ive thought his tackling has improved this year but he had a creative defensive game Sunday.


Fortunately he can really give the oppo headaches as soon as he lays a hand it. So he’s not the worst option.

if we can get our big 6 mids all back together for finals that’s what it’ll all come down to though
 

Zgope1

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The problem is the Henry contest was far from an outlier last night. I also thought he was far from great last night. He coughed up possessions, used the handball too often and had almost a negative impact in the contest and defensively. As you've said he has the ability so I wonder if last night was an off night.

Also personally I don't agree with the consensus that Lipinski doesn't go when it's his turn. He's not Libba and never will be but I think a little groupthink has crept onto this board about him. I think he was dropped more for his wasteful possessions against Melbourne moreso than his perceived weakness in the contest.
Lip lacks a bit of physicality and hardness. Pretty poor tackler and slow on the spread. In my opinion.

you can say you don’t agree with a view a lot of people have without inferring everyone’s a pack of sheep. Very irritating to read
 

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This is an argument that says that Naughton's kicking for goal is only a little below average...therefore it doesn't need work. I say if we encouraged Naughton to give goal kicking coaching and practice a huge priority for the remainder of the season (or even better, for the remainder of his career) then Naughton could be the greatest forward of his generation. Without that he is destined to be pretty good, but not great.
This assumes it’s not mental
 

immortalmike

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Lip lacks a bit of physicality and hardness. Pretty poor tackler and slow on the spread. In my opinion.

you can say you don’t agree with a view a lot of people have without inferring everyone’s a pack of sheep. Very irritating to read
That's not what I was inferring at all. I'm sorry you took it that way.

Groupthink is quite valid and often happens subconsciously. It has nothing to do with being a mindless sheep. I've been subject to it several times myself.
 

Al dente

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The 'wagon' wasn't a star by any means but was better than many give him credit for. Went alright in the 85 finals if my memory serves me. I also recognise that he is often named as the player who had his 'schlong' out in the photo but believe there was a mix up either in the story or in the photo caption, which again if my memory serves me had Mark Kellett listed at that location in the Mail photo. It is also worth pointing out that Kellett and Groenewegen looked a bit like each other at the time.
Greona had talent and skill, a bit lumbering and probably liked a beer too much
 

bobs head soup

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For those wondering about Naughton's shots tonight his expected score was 4.3...

Aaron Naughton - R12
Shots
: 7
Goals: 1
Behinds: 5
Misses: 1
Score: 11
Exp. Score: 27 (-16)

Aaron Naughton - 2021
Shots
: 63
Goals: 29
Behinds: 26
Misses: 8
Score: 200
Exp. Score: 242 (-42)

Another thing to note is that we only targeted Bruce 4 times for the entire match, while 7 and 5 for Weightman and Hannan respectively.

Now as always here are some of the rarer stats…

Expected Score / Actual Score
WB: 115 / 93 (-22)

FR: 63 / 65 (+2)

Expected Margin / Actual Margin: 28 / 52

Centre Bounce Attendance
22 - Liberatore
21 - Macrae
20 - Bontempelli
19 - English
10 - Daniel
6 - Martin
1 - Hunter
1 - West

Ruck Contests (Hitouts / To Advantage)
48 - English (17 / 1)
26 - Martin (8 / 2)
5 - Bruce (1 / 0)

Hitouts To Advantage

WB: 3
FR: 11

First Possessions
WB: 30
FR: 43

Clearances / Effective Clearances
WB: 33 / 28
FR: 37 / 30

Tackle Efficiency
WB: 54%
FR: 61%

Forward Half Kicking Efficiency
WB: 52%
FR: 56%

Defensive Half Kicking Efficiency
WB: 68%
FR: 76%

Forward Half Contested Marks
WB: 9
FR: 5

Score Launches
5 - Liberatore
3 - English, Johannisen
2 - Bontempelli, Dale, Duryea, Crozier, R. Smith
1 - Daniel, Hunter, Keath, Macrae, Weightman, B. Smith

Shots At Goal
WB: 34 (38%)

FR: 21 (43%)

Targets Inside 50
16 - Rushed/Bombed
8 - Naughton
7 - Weightman
5 - Hannan
4 - Bruce
1 - Bontempelli, English, Hunter, Liberatore, B. Smith, R. Smith, West

Defensive 50 Marks
WB: 11
FR: 31

Defensive 50 Intercept Marks
WB: 5
FR: 6

Defensive Half Turnovers
WB: 19
FR: 31

Forward Half Turnovers
WB: 44
FR: 39

Unforced Turnovers
WB: 9
FR: 12

Unforced Turnovers By Player
2 - Hunter, Johannisen, Naughton
1 - Daniel, Liberatore, Macrae

No Pressure Errors
WB: 4
FR: 9

Turnovers/Frees/50M Penalties Punished By Goals
1 - Crozier, Daniel, English

Pressure Gauge
Q1

WB: 178 (Below Average)
FR: 179 (Below Average)

Q2
WB: 166 (Poor)

FR: 164 (Poor)

Q3
WB: 210 (Elite)
FR: 194 (Above Average)

Q4
WB: 198 (Above Average)
FR: 183 (Average)

Match
WB: 189 (Above Average)
FR: 181 (Average)

Free Kick Summary
View attachment 1148833

Score Sources
View attachment 1148834
Targets inside 50 are telling. Naughton 8, Weightman 7, Hannan 5, Bruce 4..

Bruce had their best tall defender and mainly ran him away from the incoming ball to create opportunity for others.

Fantastic attitude for a guy on track for a 70 goal season, where many would focus on individual opportunities a little more.

The way he celebrates his fellow forwards succeeding is so good to watch. His teammates must love him.

If we do something special this year or next his role in our development (let alone his direct contribution) will be no small part of the story.
 

Boyd oh Boyd

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Naughton's shots go - right (and short), left, goal, left, left, right (snap), left. Just pulling too hard left on his set shots.

Also noticed midway through the 4th Naughton looks cooked and starts running to the bench but Bruce and Weightman also go off so Naughts stays out. 2 minutes later he has a snap and misses. Odd that he was so tired as he got plenty of bench time compared to his normal amount. Might be a bit tired so the bye comes at a good time.
 

Mofra

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And back to the original point - Naughton does not have a routine. Every run up is different, with many set shots, he's looking at the big screen at the ground, other's he's not. I think it's very possible that, say, a hundred hours of 1-1 coaching over the last few years with someone like Matty Lloyd may have had him in a much better spot with his set shots, which could translate to 10-20% improvement, and that it wouldn't necessarily be at the expense of his other strengths. You disagree, we'll leave it at that.
The weird part is Josh Bruce has a very set in stone routine.
Ball held over the kicking leg from the beginning of his run in, held low so it minimises the ball drop, kicks at reasonable pace from the set shot.

It's like they don't even train goal-kicking together. Naughton's ball drop is notably higher than Bruce's.
 

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