Autopsy Dogs def Suns by 54 points

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threenewpadlocks said:
Some of the stuff you read on this thread...

I mean I like Bailey Williams as well, but the mental quantum leaps required to turn the actual, on-field events of getting caught holding the ball three times in the match as "good signs because he's a thinking player" or something like that quite extraordinary (let alone 13 people liking the post). I mean people know me on this board, I like to analyse things, but at some point you have to call a spade a spade, and Bailey Williams getting caught 3 times holding the ball first and foremost to me represented the fact that he got caught holding the ball a lot.

I mean, when watching the game, were people really thinking "he's showing thought and poise"? I thought to myself "here's a player whose weakness in his lack of acceleration over his first 2-3 steps might get him into trouble into the future".

I don't understand why. Is it an inverse of the whole draft pick thing? The theory that high draft picks get unfairly criticised early in their career is now the opposite for a late pick for Williams? That it's not somehow fair to call a weakness in his game a weakness in his game because we should have low expectations because he wasn't a high draft pick?
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It's not a good thing that he's getting pinged but it's to be expected, so it's not really a bad thing either. I think that's all most are saying. He'll be learning from it.

It's normal for a creative player like Williams who likes to hold the ball and assess the situation to get pinged for a while as he's adjusting to the change of pace. He'll eventually learn the difference between VFL and AFL is holding onto the pill that extra half second. I think someone mentioned Griffen and it's a good example. Although Griffen would be creative by breaking the line with run rather than ball use (or both), the theory is the same. At the start of his career he got pinged a lot before he learned how much time he actually had.
 
fpcookie said:
It's not a good thing that he's getting pinged but it's to be expected, so it's not really a bad thing either. I think that's all most are saying. He'll be learning from it.

It's normal for a creative player like Williams who likes to hold the ball and assess the situation to get pinged for a while as he's adjusting to the change of pace. He'll eventually learn the difference between VFL and AFL is holding onto the pill that extra half second. I think someone mentioned Griffen and it's a good example. Although Griffen would be creative by breaking the line with run rather than ball use (or both), the theory is the same. At the start of his career he got pinged a lot before he learned how much time he actually had.
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Is it really? I'd encourage fundamentally quick players, like Griffen, to take the game on and get pinged for holding the ball. Williams aint quick and the reasons he was pinged was that he took too long to make a decision, then attempted to run away from trouble when he couldn't find one, where his lack of pace then exposed him and he got caught holding the ball. Saying "getting pinged isn't really a bad thing" just makes no sense to me - how can an act that hurts the team on the field of play be construed to be anything other than a bad thing? It's like missing a set shot or failing to effect a spoil or something similar.
 

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threenewpadlocks said:
Is it really? I'd encourage fundamentally quick players, like Griffen, to take the game on and get pinged for holding the ball. Williams aint quick and the reasons he was pinged was that he took too long to make a decision, then attempted to run away from trouble when he couldn't find one, where his lack of pace then exposed him and he got caught holding the ball. Saying "getting pinged isn't really a bad thing" just makes no sense to me - how can an act that hurts the team on the field of play be construed to be anything other than a bad thing? It's like missing a set shot or failing to effect a spoil or something similar.
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Because he'll learn from it. Sure it's bad in that moment but if you want him to develop it's bound to happen and not really worth getting upset/talking about. It will pay dividends later. There's more than just good/bad.

Williams doesn't take the game on with pace, that's not his go. Vision and delivery for him. You can be creative in different ways.
 
threenewpadlocks said:
Is it really? I'd encourage fundamentally quick players, like Griffen, to take the game on and get pinged for holding the ball. Williams aint quick and the reasons he was pinged was that he took too long to make a decision, then attempted to run away from trouble when he couldn't find one, where his lack of pace then exposed him and he got caught holding the ball. Saying "getting pinged isn't really a bad thing" just makes no sense to me - how can an act that hurts the team on the field of play be construed to be anything other than a bad thing? It's like missing a set shot or failing to effect a spoil or something similar.
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It's better to have tried and failed than not have tried at all.

Maybe our method goes against player instinct.

If you're going to get caught make sure you're popular on
the bigfooty forum.
 
Some of the crap on here seriously, some people are so precious about our players and act like the slightest criticism is a slight on the player and team. Players have deficiencies and pointing out an area of the game a player needs to improve is not the equivalent to saying he is no good. I know we have a few posters that go over the top but there are just as many that are over the top protective.

Williams does not get caught because he is taking the game on. Williams does not get caught because he is using his fantastic vision and poise. He is getting caught because he slows down and stops and loses awareness of what's around him. It's almost like he can't make a decision and move at the same time. Is it fixable? Most definitely. But it's an area of his game he needs to fix up. It could be not being used to the pace of afl, it could be a confidence thing where he is looking for the very safe option rather than taking what's there due to not wanting to make a mistake. Other parts of his game are good but stopping and getting caught cause you can't make a decision isn't a good thing.

The comparison to Bont is just ridiculous and that you have to be popular to not getting criticised. Bont gets caught a lot but he's actually taking the game on not stopping and hesitating.

Not a single poster that has pointed out Williams deficiency has said he won't make it or even said he shouldn't be playing. Most have said he is young and can be a good player but needs to fix this part of his game up.

I suggest people calm down some re watch the times Williams has been caught at afl level without emotion and no doubt you will see what people are saying
 
Doggies_13 said:
Some of the crap on here seriously, some people are so precious about our players and act like the slightest criticism is a slight on the player and team. Players have deficiencies and pointing out an area of the game a player needs to improve is not the equivalent to saying he is no good. I know we have a few posters that go over the top but there are just as many that are over the top protective.

Williams does not get caught because he is taking the game on. Williams does not get caught because he is using his fantastic vision and poise. He is getting caught because he slows down and stops and loses awareness of what's around him. It's almost like he can't make a decision and move at the same time. Is it fixable? Most definitely. But it's an area of his game he needs to fix up. It could be not being used to the pace of afl, it could be a confidence thing where he is looking for the very safe option rather than taking what's there due to not wanting to make a mistake. Other parts of his game are good but stopping and getting caught cause you can't make a decision isn't a good thing.

The comparison to Bont is just ridiculous and that you have to be popular to not getting criticised. Bont gets caught a lot but he's actually taking the game on not stopping and hesitating.

Not a single poster that has pointed out Williams deficiency has said he won't make it or even said he shouldn't be playing. Most have said he is young and can be a good player but needs to fix this part of his game up.

I suggest people calm down some re watch the times Williams has been caught at afl level without emotion and no doubt you will see what people are saying
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Ok sorry your interpretation is right and other people are wrong. How about people just post what they think eh?

Nobody is saying he doesn't need to improve in not getting tackled. Or doesn't have things to work on. You're taking comments and extrapolating them to the extreme.

And the only person that doesn't sound calm is you actually.
 
fpcookie said:
Ok sorry your interpretation is right and other people are wrong. How about people just post what they think eh?

Nobody is saying he doesn't need to improve in not getting tackled. Or doesn't have things to work on. You're taking comments and extrapolating them to the extreme.

And the only person that doesn't sound calm is you actually.
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I'm perfectly calm and people are entitled to their opinions but if people actually watch the game without emotion they will see him hesitate as soon as he gains possession. If he was doing as some are suggesting taking the game on and getting caught no one would see it as a deficiency, but he isn't trying to get around players to use the ball.

I did game reviews with players one on one for 5 years, giving constructive feedback and watching for areas for improvement and the reasons behind a deficiency.

You can take what I say with a grain of salt but if people actually watch without emotion I think they will be surprised by what they see
 

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Doggies_13 said:
Derm started the broadcast accusing young of having been mouthy towards Carlton last game, how the bloke has a job as a commentator I'll never know
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That's cute coming from Derm who was never short of a sledge on the field.
 
Doggies_13 said:
Some of the crap on here seriously, some people are so precious about our players and act like the slightest criticism is a slight on the player and team. Players have deficiencies and pointing out an area of the game a player needs to improve is not the equivalent to saying he is no good. I know we have a few posters that go over the top but there are just as many that are over the top protective.

Williams does not get caught because he is taking the game on. Williams does not get caught because he is using his fantastic vision and poise. He is getting caught because he slows down and stops and loses awareness of what's around him. It's almost like he can't make a decision and move at the same time. Is it fixable? Most definitely. But it's an area of his game he needs to fix up. It could be not being used to the pace of afl, it could be a confidence thing where he is looking for the very safe option rather than taking what's there due to not wanting to make a mistake. Other parts of his game are good but stopping and getting caught cause you can't make a decision isn't a good thing.

The comparison to Bont is just ridiculous and that you have to be popular to not getting criticised. Bont gets caught a lot but he's actually taking the game on not stopping and hesitating.

Not a single poster that has pointed out Williams deficiency has said he won't make it or even said he shouldn't be playing. Most have said he is young and can be a good player but needs to fix this part of his game up.

I suggest people calm down some re watch the times Williams has been caught at afl level without emotion and no doubt you will see what people are saying
Click to expand...
Do you for one minute believe the times he was caught would
not be reviewed by our coaching staff ?

To learn you have to make mistakes, if you having been told
of your mistakes year after year most likely you will be given
the chance to improve and if you don't, bye.
 
Doggies_13 said:
I'm perfectly calm and people are entitled to their opinions but if people actually watch the game without emotion they will see him hesitate as soon as he gains possession. If he was doing as some are suggesting taking the game on and getting caught no one would see it as a deficiency, but he isn't trying to get around players to use the ball.

I did game reviews with players one on one for 5 years, giving constructive feedback and watching for areas for improvement and the reasons behind a deficiency.

You can take what I say with a grain of salt but if people actually watch without emotion I think they will be surprised by what they see
Click to expand...
Why are people that disagree with your assessment 'watching with emotion'? What a demeaning cop out that is. It is possible for people to see the game differently mate and I'll have you know I'm an emotionless black hole of a human, so what you say is not even possible.

You can take the game on without using pace or breaking tackles. Why are people defaulting to that definition of taking the game on? Once again, it is not Williams' mode of operation to be creative that way. Williams takes the game on by using his vision, picking good options and hitting difficult kicks that open up the ground for teammates. This is what he is trying to do when he gets tackled IMO. He does it consistently at VFL level but there's a few differences now:
1. His teammates have less space at AFL level so it's not as easy to pick a good option quickly.
2. He has less time before pressure is applied to him.
It's something for him to work on and adjust to at the higher level. He might need to take a less risky option for a while until he adjusts to the pace. I'm sure the coaches will be going through this with him. The important thing is that it's not unexpected for players like Williams, that like to hold onto the ball and can do so successfully at lower levels, to have an adjustment period when moving up.
 
Clay said:
Williams will be a good player. Many on here are far too reactive and fixated on minor issues. Short memories and no foresight. Second year players get caught with the ball when they get hospital handballs. If they don't, then they're the Bont.

Anyone remember Ryan Griffen in his early years? He got caught four times a game because he was told to use his natural strengths and take the game on and learn when the break a tackle and when to dish it off. Williams' strength is his poise and balance.
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Take em on Bailey, take em on.
 
Yojimbo said:
Do you for one minute believe the times he was caught would
not be reviewed by our coaching staff ?

To learn you have to make mistakes, if you having been told
of your mistakes year after year most likely you will be given
the chance to improve and if you don't, bye.
Click to expand...

Of course the coaching staff would be reviewing it with him. Of course you make mistakes to learn and every one that has commented on the mistakes that he makes have said it's fixable and none have called for him to be dropped just pointed out errors he makes and needs to work on.

Not directed at you but some on this board praise every game of his like he's the next Judd and has no deficiency. All myself and others have said is that he needs to make quicker decisions or move while making decisions and he won't get caught holding the ball so much.

fpcookie said:
Why are people that disagree with your assessment 'watching with emotion'? What a demeaning cop out that is. It is possible for people to see the game differently mate and I'll have you know I'm an emotionless black hole of a human, so what you say is not even possible.

You can take the game on without using pace or breaking tackles. Why are people defaulting to that definition of taking the game on? Once again, it is not Williams' mode of operation to be creative that way. Williams takes the game on by using his vision, picking good options and hitting difficult kicks that open up the ground for teammates. This is what he is trying to do when he gets tackled IMO. He does it consistently at VFL level but there's a few differences now:
1. His teammates have less space at AFL level so it's not as easy to pick a good option quickly.
2. He has less time before pressure is applied to him.
It's something for him to work on and adjust to at the higher level. He might need to take a less risky option for a while until he adjusts to the pace. I'm sure the coaches will be going through this with him. The important thing is that it's not unexpected for players like Williams, that like to hold onto the ball and can do so successfully at lower levels, to have an adjustment period when moving up.
Click to expand...

The majority have said he takes the game on like Griffen used to or like Bont have been the comparisons and I obviously am watching a different game if that's the case.

You can take the game on with decision making and use of ball without charging through or around opponents but he isn't doing that either, he receives the ball and slows down or stops completely as he chooses where to go with the ball and by doing so he brings pressure on himself. To me as I have stated multi times it's looks like he is looking for that 100% pass that has no chance of a turnover and won't pull the trigger on a more difficult pass he could make. This could be a confidence thing worried about coughing the ball up and by doing so he gets caught and coughs it up anyway.

My whole point is he is better off staying on motion as he makes his decision and taking the options on offer rather than hesitating and waiting for something they may never open up.

If other people are seeing him take the game on and staying in motion then I must be watching a different player each week. The kid can easily fix it up and he's a good kick he just needs to stop hesitating, inviting pressure and back his kicking and his team mates.

One of the key points you make is he is picking good options and hitting difficult kicks that is not what I'm seeing at afl level and this could be like I've said previously a lack of confidence to stuff up at afl level and not yet used to the pace of afl level. And you say he may need to take less risky options, I think he needs to be more risky, I see him waiting for the too safe of an option and he gets caught rather than pull the trigger.
 
Doggies_13 said:
The majority have said he takes the game on like Griffen used to or like Bont have been the comparisons and I obviously am watching a different game if that's the case.

You can take the game on with decision making and use of ball without charging through or around opponents but he isn't doing that either, he receives the ball and slows down or stops completely as he chooses where to go with the ball and by doing so he brings pressure on himself. To me as I have stated multi times it's looks like he is looking for that 100% pass that has no chance of a turnover and won't pull the trigger on a more difficult pass he could make. This could be a confidence thing worried about coughing the ball up and by doing so he gets caught and coughs it up anyway.

My whole point is he is better off staying on motion as he makes his decision and taking the options on offer rather than hesitating and waiting for something they may never open up.

If other people are seeing him take the game on and staying in motion then I must be watching a different player each week. The kid can easily fix it up and he's a good kick he just needs to stop hesitating, inviting pressure and back his kicking and his team mates.

One of the key points you make is he is picking good options and hitting difficult kicks that is not what I'm seeing at afl level and this could be like I've said previously a lack of confidence to stuff up at afl level and not yet used to the pace of afl level. And you say he may need to take less risky options, I think he needs to be more risky, I see him waiting for the too safe of an option and he gets caught rather than pull the trigger.
Click to expand...
The analogy to Griffen is that he often got caught taking the game on/being creative. If you read back you'll see people caveated the comparison by saying they did it in different ways. Nobody said he plays like Griffen/Bont, just that all 3 look to be creative (in their own way). That difference has been mentioned again several times after that.

To you it looks like he's looking for the 100% pass. To me it looks like he's looking for the difficult kick to open up the ground, as he does at VFL level.
 
fpcookie said:
The analogy to Griffen is that he often got caught taking the game on/being creative. If you read back you'll see people caveated the comparison by saying they did it in different ways. Nobody said he plays like Griffen/Bont, just that all 3 look to be creative (in their own way). That difference has been mentioned again several times after that.

To you it looks like he's looking for the 100% pass. To me it looks like he's looking for the difficult kick to open up the ground, as he does at VFL level.
Click to expand...

To me i am yet to see him pull the trigger at afl level. Can't comment on vfl as I live interstate. Did ask the question on the game day thread whether he stops and slows down at vfl level as I notice he does at afl level
 
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