Game Day Dogs dft GWS- through to Grand Final

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Both Crippa and tacopavlich appear to be setting up straw men in their arguments.
Tacopavlich hasn't said the bye had no bearing on the Bulldogs' rise from seventh and Crippa hasn't suggested putting an asterisk to the Bulldogs campaign because of the bye.

The end of season bye certainly helped the Bulldogs recover from their injuries just in time to take on the Eagles. It meant the best team won. Too many times a team has limped in with a few injuries, or came to the finals off a reduced break and have been punished by a comparatively mediocre, but healthy or rested team.

This year was unique because at the end of the home and away, the top seven teams all won at least 15 games. Normally 7th would have snuck in with 12 or 13 wins. So unlike previous years, the Bulldogs had good form over the whole season.

Lyon has suggested the winners of the qualifying finals may have been disadvantaged because they got a second bye, and may have lost their momentum going into the second round of finals.
I don't agree with this. If that was the case why would he have rested so many players last year against Port Adelaide, knowing that a win the following week would result in a second bye?

Yes, the winners of the Qualifying finals both lost their Preliminary Finals. But there was more to it than that. Sydney was the minor premiers and could be expected to bounce back. Hawthorn and Geelong were close to each other, but both are ageing teams, reliant on too few to carry them over the line. Although everyone seemed to love their Qualifying Final, it didn't hit great heights, until the end of the game because it was close. And the Giants jumped the Swans because of their aggressive tactics, injuring two key players. They tried the aggression again against the Doggies, but it didn't pay off and they ended up looking stupid. (Looking at Jeremy Cameron there.)

The second bye continues to be an advantage to the team winning the Qualifying final, but the best team is still most likely to win. Perhaps it's not the advantage it used to be (which made the outcomes too predictable and too dependent on the Qualifying final result) but this year the right result happened.

Tl;dr
The effort of winning three games in a row going into the Grand Final has been great for Footscray, and playing three in a row to get to the GF has been great for Sydney. The bye surely helped with this, but that's a good thing, because now every week becomes important, compared to previously when the first week of the finals usually determined the whole series. By the end of the Finals, both Grand Finallists will have travelled twice. I hope it's a cracker.
 
The end of season bye certainly helped the Bulldogs recover from their injuries just in time to take on the Eagles. It meant the best team won. Too many times a team has limped in with a few injuries, or came to the finals off a reduced break and have been punished by a comparatively mediocre, but healthy or rested team.

I'm afraid this is yet another straw man, to add to what appears to be a growing collection. Neither TP nor I were arguing about the merits or otherwise of the end of season bye. Lyon's comments in that regard are therefore quite beside the point. It's also tendentious and question-begging to argue that "the best team won". As Beveridge said, for 150 years the concept of "the best team" has been instrinsically linked to the notion of survival of the fittest so that the "best team" is, by definition, the last man standing.
 
I'm afraid this is yet another straw man, to add to what appears to be a growing collection. Neither TP nor I were arguing about the merits or otherwise of the end of season bye. Lyon's comments in that regard are therefore quite beside the point. It's also tendentious and question-begging to argue that "the best team won". As Beveridge said, for 150 years the concept of "the best team" has been instrinsically linked to the notion of survival of the fittest so that the "best team" is, by definition, the last man standing.

I never said you were arguing about the merits of the bye. I just kind of meandered into that discussion. But you did say "Couldn't have done it without the bye. Let's keep it real." So I was addressing that.

If the Eagles lose, I will always argue that the best team won! By giving the Dogs and Eagles a weekend off, it meant that a different length break, or tough last few games did not determine the outcome. The Eagles won one more game over the season. The vagaries of the draw could have been responsible for that one game differential.
I don't think the best team won between Sydney and GWS, or between Geelong and Hawthorn, perhaps the best team on the day, but even that is debatable. In the case of the Sydney derby we could say the best team left standing won on the day. And the Geelong-Hawthorn game was a kick after the siren away from having a different result.

I think both teams deserve to be in the Grand Final and both should be respected for their pathway to reach it. I also like the new arrangement with the bye. I hope it stays for at least a couple of years more.
 

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But you did say "Couldn't have done it without the bye. Let's keep it real." So I was addressing that.

No you weren't addressing that at all. Otherwise you would have addressed the burden of travelling to Perth in 2 successive weeks; of having so many key players injured or underdone; and the effect that would have had on the probability of the Bulldogs reaching the GF.

What you did address were concepts like "vagaries of the draw" and "one game differential". Those concepts have no bearing on anything except your fixation with subjectively determining who is the "best team", then working backwards from there to determine whether the Bulldogs would have made the GF with or without the bye, which is of course a nonsense.

The finals are a new season. We all start equal (as Rossco says;)). Coaches look forward. It's war. They look at their resources, assess what they've got, the condition it's in, how far they've got to go and worry about whether they can make the distance. At this time of year, it's not about who was the best team in the past (what you're talking about). it's about:
  • How many soldiers are we down now?
  • Who's up right now but may not last the distance?
  • How far do we have to travel?
  • How long do we get to recuperate in between?
  • What about the enemy?
Based on those issues, my assessment, which was certainly open on the evidence, was that the Doggies couldn't have made it to the GF without the bye. Wouldn't have mattered if they were the "best team" as subjectively assessed by you or not.

My argument, whether you agree with or not, has no bearing on the moral worth of the Dogs, on the desirability of the bye, on the fairness of the bye, or any such extraneous issue.

I think both teams deserve to be in the Grand Final and both should be respected for their pathway to reach it..

Why the moralistic tone? Who is disrespecting anyone? Why keep raising points that no-one is disputing?
 
No you weren't addressing that at all. Otherwise you would have addressed the burden of travelling to Perth in 2 successive weeks; of having so many key players injured or underdone; and the effect that would have had on the probability of the Bulldogs reaching the GF.

What you did address were concepts like "vagaries of the draw" and "one game differential". Those concepts have no bearing on anything except your fixation with subjectively determining who is the "best team", then working backwards from there to determine whether the Bulldogs would have made the GF with or without the bye, which is of course a nonsense.

The finals are a new season. We all start equal (as Rossco says;)). Coaches look forward. It's war. They look at their resources, assess what they've got, the condition it's in, how far they've got to go and worry about whether they can make the distance. At this time of year, it's not about who was the best team in the past (what you're talking about). it's about:
  • How many soldiers are we down now?
  • Who's up right now but may not last the distance?
  • How far do we have to travel?
  • How long do we get to recuperate in between?
  • What about the enemy?
Based on those issues, my assessment, which was certainly open on the evidence, was that the Doggies couldn't have made it to the GF without the bye. Wouldn't have mattered if they were the "best team" as subjectively assessed by you or not.

My argument, whether you agree with or not, has no bearing on the moral worth of the Dogs, on the desirability of the bye, on the fairness of the bye, or any such extraneous issue.



Why the moralistic tone? Who is disrespecting anyone? Why keep raising points that no-one is disputing?

You are having a go at my tone? Ffs Crippa, what's the matter? You normally make a heap of sense. But in this thread you seem to deliberately take offence when none was intended.

You keep saying that the Doggies couldn't have made it to the GF without the bye. I'm not disagreeing with you. But I am saying that that would not have been fair.

Were you a Dockers fan when Freo got bundled out less than a week after beating the Eagles in an epic Derby? (2003). That game had a huge impact on the outcome of that final. With a bye, it wouldn't have (so much).
Your idea that the finals is a whole new season has always been horse s**t. Lyon would say that to motivate his players, but if it was true, he would never have rested players in the last round.

The bye has made things fairer. If there wasn't a bye, it is more likely that the Eagles would have won, then gone out against Hawthorn. Hawthorn may or may not have beaten GWS (probably not as that one week is a clear great advantage), and then we would have been stuck with another Sydney Hawthorn GF. Not because they were the best teams, but because the fixture helped them the most.

I haven't just been talking about the best team in the past - that's your addition. It's about the best team running into the finals and the form team of the finals. And of course it's subjective. Everything has a level of subjectivity, no matter what statistics you try to slap over the top.
 
Personally, I think the second bye has had an effect. And if Ross had his time again I would quietly bet he'd take a different approach to last year.
GWS was really scratchy in the first quarter of the PF and their kicking efficiency was way below their usual lofty standards. Geelong was blown away in the first quarter (although I also consider them a tad lucky to have reached the PF at all). And sitting at the WAFL grand final, but for the first quarter where Subi was equally sluggish and just couldn't get their hands on the ball, it would have been a different game, certainly a lot closer and maybe a different result.
 

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