Review Dogs Lose to Demons by 28 - Rd 11, 2021

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Mattdougie

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They aren't everything but they are something, as opposed to just saying we were crap, which apparently passes for a comprehensive assessment so long as you agree with it.

The way I see it, on Friday night we were beaten by a side that came with a plan and worked better as a unit on the night, it doesn't mean they had the best individuals. In fact I would argue that we had too many players at the poor end of the spectrum rather than not enough at the top end. Gawn and Oliver were standouts for them and clearly deserved their votes, after that it was a bit of a lottery and I think should have included some Bulldog players if the coaches were looking at the game more objectively. Despite being the focus of negative attention players like Bontempelli and Macrae still worked their buts off, got lots of possession and generated drive for their team. Jake Lever certainly played his role in Melbourne's win but its worth considering Zaine Cordy had the same number of possessions and took more marks.
Who would you have voted for ?

Great thread by the way, perhaps my favourite ever.
 

stefoid

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I agree it felt like Melbourne were always in control but it felt like that more because we just weren't able to peg back that 27 point deficit we gifted them in the first quarter. It seldom went out beyond that.
exactly, our defence was OK, apart from the 1st quarter. Our problem for the entire match was kicking a score.
 

dogwatch

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Sorry DW, it might be the vaccine, but I'm trying to get my head around this.

I'm suggesting that our lack of defensive pressure around clearances (especially CB's) was in fact the primary reason we lost. Everything else was symptomatic of a primary cause. 3 of our 5 "outs" were quick ones (Treloar, VDM and Scott) which compounded our available options from exiting D50 and the other 2 (Martin and Dunkley) are good defensive stoppage players who were likely to stem the bleeding in the first place.

The end result of not having Martin, Dunkley and Treloar (also defensively capable as well as being able to burst from stoppages) available as options against Gawn, Oliver, Petracca was that G, O and P had match influencing games and we lost because of it and will continue to lose games against that quality of midfield if we can't remedy the defensive aspect of clearances in the interim. With a full compliment to choose from I don't believe it would have panned out that way. We didn't have them so it did but I'd be optimistic later in the year.

🤔 Are we miles apart?
We're only miles apart in agreeing what we're talking about. ;) Other than that we're pretty much in agreement.

I was talking about how the coaches' voting came to be what it was (which I think was where this all started) not why we lost the game.

But look, it's late. And it's unimportant. Let's just agree to agree, eh?
Or not. Whatever you reckon.
 

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Boristown

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Jake Lever certainly played his role in Melbourne's win but its worth considering Zaine Cordy had the same number of possessions and took more marks.
The Demons left Cordy on his own in the pocket as the outlet kick from full back which contributed to his mark stats and his career high kicking. The fact he had so much of the ball isn't a good thing in terms of Bulldogs ball movement.

Lever won plenty of his possession via intercept, so won it back directly from the opposition. They are hugely valuable compared to uncontested marks deep inside 50.
 

BEaston

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I was thinking about that, and had a quick look. Cordy actually set a new career high for kicks in a game - 15. His career per game average is just under 7.

Obviously completely by Melbourne design. But it equally could have been Lewis Young or Gardner put in that position, and we wouldn't have been any better off.

Yet another example of how magnificent having two Alex Keaths would be.
Gardner is a much better kick than Cordy.

Zaine Cordy had the same number of possessions and took more marks.
Only because Melbourne let him receive basically every one of our kick outs. They wanted the ball in his hands coming out of D50.
 

Unorth

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Gardner is a much better kick than Cordy.
I certainly agree that he is a better kick than Cordy (and Young). But I feel that the bar there is low, and that Melbourne still would have planned the same way. From what we've seen, Gardner seems to be a real confidence player, and I feel that if he had a turnover or two while being pushed by Melbourne into more responsibility, it could quickly turn into a bad night for him. That might even be something they'd possibly count on. But the next time we see the Dees I would suspect (health provided) we'll be seeing Gardner out there instead of Cordy, so we'll find out what changes as a result.
 

BEaston

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I certainly agree that he is a better kick than Cordy (and Young). But I feel that the bar there is low, and that Melbourne still would have planned the same way. From what we've seen, Gardner seems to be a real confidence player, and I feel that if he had a turnover or two while being pushed by Melbourne into more responsibility, it could quickly turn into a bad night for him. That might even be something they'd possibly count on. But the next time we see the Dees I would suspect (health provided) we'll be seeing Gardner out there instead of Cordy, so we'll find out what changes as a result.
Good point.
At the very least, Gardner can kick over a jam tin. We could fall back on playing the territory game a bit more reliably with the ball in his hands.
 

doggies ftw

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They had a really good plan for us, and got the jump on us. We played as bad as we could possibly play and handed them like 6 direct goals from unforced turnovers, had too many players down and not enough turning up. And still would have been in the game if we’d taken our chances. The damage was done in the first 20 mins and we never recovered really. No big deal we’ll be right
 

MrChristo

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fun fact, we had 76 turnovers and melbourne had 70. So they wernt exactly flawless either, but what they did do on occasion was get the ball down their end faster, and as a result their efficiency inside 50 was way better and they kicked a bigger score. From less kicks and less inside 50s.
There's something in this for sure.

As Professor says, lack of winning ball at the coal face (which contributed to less Contested Ball) hurt immensely, but in a way it was a mirror image of the way we control most games.

Remember Teague saying during the week of the Carlton game that they would take us on and score?
I think most people had a giggle and thought it was a bit of mind gaming, but it worked!
Hidden by the fact that we ran over them, they scored 91 from just 44 I50s. (and we dominated clearances in that game!)

Melbourne did exactly the same thing but have a much better system/defense to prevent us from scoring.

Teams know if they go quickly and directly that our back half is unlikely to cope.
I suspect we'll see more of it from now on.

... Which, of course, then lends itself more to the slow play as we try to play more keeping-off to prevent *them* from scoring.
It was a definite plan B, problem being against solid defensive teams we then struggle to score as well.

Bottom line is, we absolutely cannot afford to get jumped early by good teams.
 

Mr. Walker

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They had a really good plan for us,
No big deal we’ll be right
They played the much better football and deserved the win.
I don’t agree with the we’ll be right attitude of quite a few on here. I agree we are a better team this year but the record stands at no finals wins since 2016. We still have a bit to prove and it won’t just happen.
 

Boristown

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Cordy wasn't the issue. The issue was the predictability of the mids and back flankers wanting to switch play and making fundamental mistakes under pressure then turning the ball over.
Cordy wasn't THE issue but his higher than average possession and mark numbers point to AN issue.
 

RedWhite&Blue

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It was obvious that they wanted the ball in Cordy's hands coming out of the backline and they achieved that aim.
It is a great game plan shutting down all our good ball users and basically leaving the worst free to do as he wants. Cordy had a day out and didn't hurt them at all with any of his possessions.
28 points was the final margin but it felt like a 10 goal loss such was their dominance.
That's the cold hard truth. I'm as optimistic a Bulldog supporter as there is but honestly they were toying with us.
 

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Proffessor

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Still struggling to wrap my head around the continued Cordy criticism, even after he has a good game.

Despite the criticisms of his kicking, he was hitting his targets pretty well by foot and generally chose reasonably attacking options, particularly early on when the game was lost.

Coming out of Defence, Bailey Dale had an uncharacteristic shocker with his disposal causing a number of turnovers. He's had a great season, but had on off night particularly early.

In terms of leaving players alone and not paying a penalty, I would say guys like R. Smith, McNeil, Lipinski, and Butler/Garcia fit that bill not Cordy.
R. Smith, Lipinski and Butler got a fair amount of freedom and even got a fair amount of the footy but needed to make more of an impact than they did in order for us to win.
 

Proffessor

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The Demons left Cordy on his own in the pocket as the outlet kick from full back which contributed to his mark stats and his career high kicking. The fact he had so much of the ball isn't a good thing in terms of Bulldogs ball movement.

Lever won plenty of his possession via intercept, so won it back directly from the opposition. They are hugely valuable compared to uncontested marks deep inside 50.
Lever also spent a fair bit of time on small forwards or just as a sweeper without a direct opponent and with a license to go for intercepts, if he didn't intercept he wouldn't be doing his job.
 

Proffessor

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Who would you have voted for ?

Great thread by the way, perhaps my favourite ever.
I would have given
5. Gawn
4. Oliver
3. Bontempelli
2. Macrae
1. A bit of coin toss between Lever and Petracca, but I'll go for Lever as their Defence prevented us getting back into it in the 2nd half.
 

Dogsbestfriend

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Lever also spent a fair bit of time on small forwards or just as a sweeper without a direct opponent and with a license to go for intercepts, if he didn't intercept he wouldn't be doing his job.
Next time we play the Dees would be interesting to see if Bevo plays Cordy as a defensive forward doing a job on Lever. Ala 2016
 

Mattdougie

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I would have given
5. Gawn
4. Oliver
3. Bontempelli
2. Macrae
1. A bit of coin toss between Lever and Petracca, but I'll go for Lever as their Defence prevented us getting back into it in the 2nd half.

I though our mids and half backs were the main issue in moving the ball forward and the contested possession differential so I agree with the coaches votes.

Many won’t like this but McRae can have games with very large stat numbers while having very little effect on the game.

Maybe Bev was also sending a message by giving no votes that as a whole the team wasn’t good enough
 

Proffessor

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I though our mids and half backs were the main issue in moving the ball forward and the contested possession differential so I agree with the coaches votes.

Many won’t like this but McRae can have games with very large stat numbers while having very little effect on the game.

Maybe Bev was also sending a message by giving no votes that as a whole the team wasn’t good enough

I think Bev was definitely sending a message of disappointment, and Goodwin was likely sending a message of thanks to certain players doing important jobs. Which from a certain perspective is fine, however such behaviour compromises the award.
 

Proffessor

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Next time we play the Dees would be interesting to see if Bevo plays Cordy as a defensive forward doing a job on Lever. Ala 2016
If we still had Morris or Marcus Adams, it would be worth a thought. As things stand I think we could just try to be a bit smarter about how structure up and how we bring the ball in. Try to either drag him away or make him have to be more accountable. Vandermeer or JUH might be interesting matchups that he couldn't sag off too much from.
 

Proffessor

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There's something in this for sure.

As Professor says, lack of winning ball at the coal face (which contributed to less Contested Ball) hurt immensely, but in a way it was a mirror image of the way we control most games.

Remember Teague saying during the week of the Carlton game that they would take us on and score?
I think most people had a giggle and thought it was a bit of mind gaming, but it worked!
Hidden by the fact that we ran over them, they scored 91 from just 44 I50s. (and we dominated clearances in that game!)

Melbourne did exactly the same thing but have a much better system/defense to prevent us from scoring.

Teams know if they go quickly and directly that our back half is unlikely to cope.
I suspect we'll see more of it from now on.

... Which, of course, then lends itself more to the slow play as we try to play more keeping-off to prevent *them* from scoring.
It was a definite plan B, problem being against solid defensive teams we then struggle to score as well.

Bottom line is, we absolutely cannot afford to get jumped early by good teams.
I agree getting jumped early is a problem for us as it tends to make us adjust our structure to a less attacking one, but I don't think it is insurmountable. We just can't afford to carry this many passengers against the better teams who will come with counter strategies and the manpower to implement them.

Everyone needs to pull their weight for our approach to prevail.
 

The Slitherin' Snake

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I was thinking about that, and had a quick look. Cordy actually set a new career high for kicks in a game - 15. His career per game average is just under 7.

Obviously completely by Melbourne design. But it equally could have been Lewis Young or Gardner put in that position, and we wouldn't have been any better off.

Yet another example of how magnificent having two Alex Keaths would be.
Controversial opinion... Cordy is a better kick than Keath and its not even close
 

SupercededMan

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Controversial opinion... Cordy is a better kick than Keath and its not even close
Controversial indeed! The BigFooty Match Committee has had the lad in their sights for a while (every team has their kicking boy). I dunno about being better than Alex in this regard, but I regard Cordy's kicking reasonably highly, even if his style is hard to watch.

I could name a certain (recent) captain of the club who was lauded for silky skills, but I recall many a time he'd unexpectedly turn it over. Haters will hate.
 

ScottyDogg

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Sorry for bringing this up again but thought Lachie’s interview provides additional context to the discussion about why we lost to Melbourne. He states blatant skill errors that they wouldn’t make at practice and that they could not have played worse. Says it’s better to play atrociously and lose than to play well and stil get done.

 
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