Review Dogs Run Out Of Legs And Lose To Collingwood - Rd 4 2019

Munnez

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Don't want to pick apart specific players - enough of that has been done in this thread - but our game style was a lot different from previous weeks.

Good: defensive work against opposition ball movement was much improved from the way we got burnt on turnovers in the back end of the Sydney game, and against Hawks and Gold Coast. Collingwood are a better, more slick ball moving team than those three, yet we defending their quick ball movement better than those three teams. There was a period of about a quarter and a half of footy in the second and third quarters where Collingwood just didn't look like they had an avenue to goal and it wasn't because of the manic pressure that we applied in particular in the first two weeks, but rather just our positioning and structures held up behind the ball.

Good: We're developing a very crafty operating half-back line. Daniel has good vision. Duryea, Crozier and Suckling are all left-footers who make good decisions. Our forward line is trash and we're missing the quality hit-up targets from the half-forward line (sorry Sam Lloyd, you're not the answer), and whislt this half-back unit lacks a bit of dash and pace, they're good kicks and they make good decisions, something that will help us

Bad: The fact that when Libba didn't have as dominant a game as he did in the first three weeks, you felt that the other players didn't pick up the slack in helping us be that dominant contested ball team we have to be to push for finals this year, especially when the game was in the balance.

In Beveridge's time as coach, bar 2015, he's been a player who on the "contest/outnumber v spread and ball movement" spectrum of how to win the game has been heavily in favour of the former, and we've won games even with inferior quality ball movement through sheer outpositioning, outtrunning and outwinning the ball v the opposition. So it was kind of strange to see us be competitive in a game through, even perhaps, slightly better ball movement, but worse around the contest. For example when we got a couple of goals up late in the 3rd but the Pies went away with the game, it's not as if they "broke apart" the game by tearing the game apart with ball movement, but they just wore us down and got to more contests and thrashed us in the contested ball in the last quarter. That's something that we've won games over the last few years doing to other teams so it was strange to be on the receiving end of. But we can't rely on Libba having a rest of the season like he did the first three games, and we can't accept that we got beaten like that by the Pies midfielders.

Perspective:
In giving games - and not just games, but important roles - to the likes of English, Schache, Smith, Richards, even Gowers (not young, but young-ish and still inexperienced), Naughton, means that we see the importance of development, even this early into the season. It may be ugly, it may lose us games, and it may not "appear" a rebuild as we're still being competitive and pushing on the edges of finals - but our team selection is still rebuilt, so we have to keep that in perspective.
Can absolutely see that Bevo has an eye for the future with this team. That's why we didn't recruit a Tap ruckman so that English's development can be fast tracked.
Even though he got touched up in the hitouts it shows him what it takes to be the very best and what he needs to work on.
Some of it also comes down to retention if we didn't give Tim some regular games he would be a much higher flight risk
 

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House_of_Dahl

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We were setting up to shark Grundy's hitouts at the contest 100%. Tim English might be thin as a rake but he actually has an inch on Grundy. It's physically impossible for him not to have won more than 10% of hitouts unless we were deliberatly not trying to, it's just common sense.

Even Sandilands at his absolute peak in 2015 "only" won about 70% of hitout contests, if crappy ruckmen could win a quarter of the hitouts against peak Sandi when they were trying it's common sense to think that English - if he really was trying to - could have won a quarter of the hitouts against Grundy.

Whether it was right or wrong of course requires further discussion, but lets get the common sense out of the way.
Yeah totes. English didnt even jump for some of them, just hung back as another of the midfielders waiting to shark it.
 

BRWB

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Yeah totes. English didnt even jump for some of them, just hung back as another of the midfielders waiting to shark it.
Don't you find it counter intuitive that we are playing English to fast.track him while at the same instructing him to lose ruck contests on purpose?


Or are we fast.tracking him.to be a loser?

Cool.retention strategy.
 

dogwatch

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I was just pondering the non-goal to Lloyd when Naughton was ruled to have touched it on the goal line. Would they have awarded the mark if he had grabbed it cleanly?

Logic says they should have but I just wonder how that would have played out. His hands were clearly on the part of the ball that had gone beyond the goal line. It was just the tip of the ball that was judged to have been on the goal line.

Anyway, I think he'll be dealing with those ones more judiciously in future. Right now he owes Lloyd a beer or two. Or a coffee maybe ... whatever the currency is.
 

House_of_Dahl

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Don't you find it counter intuitive that we are playing English to fast.track him while at the same instructing him to lose ruck contests on purpose?


Or are we fast.tracking him.to be a loser?

Cool.retention strategy.
I didn't make any of those points, but suspect it's a balancing act between several factors including: wanting to get him more experience, not having a clearly better option, wanting to win games (i.e. sharking their taps).
 

Some Idiot

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I can't recall a Western Bulldogs key position player with the willingness to crash packs and ability to hold grabs like Aaron Naughton has shown ever. Starting to get excited
 

Mattdougie

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Losing the ruck on purpose????

Ahhaahhahahhahahahahhahaahhhaaa

Omg some of the stuff on here is priceless.

I wonder how that convo goes??

hey Tim we know you are not going to win any tapouts so don’t even try mate just jump around and flap your arms Libba will sort it out

Wow
 
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We were setting up to shark Grundy's hitouts at the contest 100%. Tim English might be thin as a rake but he actually has an inch on Grundy. It's physically impossible for him not to have won more than 10% of hitouts unless we were deliberatly not trying to, it's just common sense.

Even Sandilands at his absolute peak in 2015 "only" won about 70% of hitout contests, if crappy ruckmen could win a quarter of the hitouts against peak Sandi when they were trying it's common sense to think that English - if he really was trying to - could have won a quarter of the hitouts against Grundy.

Whether it was right or wrong of course requires further discussion, but lets get the common sense out of the way.
You’re probably quite right here.

It’s not much of a plan when Grundy starts getting it straight onto his boot though. There were times he waltzed out of there, ball in hand.

Surely this sort of a game plan does nothing to aid the development of English either.
 

Mattdougie

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You’re probably quite right here.

It’s not much of a plan when Grundy starts getting it straight onto his boot though. There were times he waltzed out of there, ball in hand.

Surely this sort of a game plan does nothing to aid the development of English either.

It’s complete and utter tripe

Did they miss how many times Tim jumped too early on the weekend hoping to get body on Grundy so he could hold him out of the tap with his height?

Grundy just stepped around him and he missed everything.

Even the idea that ANY coach tells ANY player to go out there and deliberately lose or not try is beyond laughable.

We defiantly set up to rove to Grundy but that is not the same as telling Tim to give up and not even try.

We won a flag in 16 primarily roving to the oppo ruckman or using third man up. Honestly some of the ideas on here hurt my head
 

AFDogs

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Went to the game. It was a bit of a dull game and night, despite being a close game.

Watching live I was very impressed with Crozier. Was easily our best on the night. Some of his efforts are out of this world.

I also enjoyed Suckling, Daniel, Macrae, Bont and Naughton's games.

We must bring the hammer down on the Blues next weekend.
 
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Rucking seems topical

I thought when you played in the ruck, you run-in, bump & jump for the tap

Around the ground at stoppages & like you hold your position – within reason

Our ruckman was thrown off the ball at every contest & manhandled beyond disbelief against Collingwood

This is clearly at odds with the AFL rules

Quote – Free Kicks – Relating to Rucks 15.5

A field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against a Player where the Player

(b) unduly pushes, bumps, holds or blocks an opposition Player who is the Ruck contesting a bounce or throw up by a field Umpire or throw in by a boundary Umpire

Does any of the WB officials read any of these posts - if so how about it?
 

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Went to the game. It was a bit of a dull game and night, despite being a close game.

Watching live I was very impressed with Crozier. Was easily our best on the night. Some of his efforts are out of this world.

I also enjoyed Suckling, Daniel, Macrae, Bont and Naughton's games.

We must bring the hammer down on the Blues next weekend.
Like they did against Gold Coast, Carlton will look like premiership favourites next week against this rabble.
 

the conch

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He has the tank to cover the ground I think he should be given some license like Tom Lynch from Adelaide. Who knows might even be able to get some cheapies out the back If he can turn his defender inside out
A la nick Reiwolt , even Chris Grant and Richo ... keep working
 

threenewpadlocks

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Losing the ruck on purpose????

Ahhaahhahahhahahahahhahaahhhaaa

Omg some of the stuff on here is priceless.

I wonder how that convo goes??

hey Tim we know you are not going to win any tapouts so don’t even try mate just jump around and flap your arms Libba will sort it out

Wow
But use your common sense. Tim English is 3cm taller than Grundy (I know he's skinnier but still). Over the course of 60+ stoppages, if English had been trying to win every single hitout he contested, with that height and reach advantage, and the fact you've got three different types of ball coming in (centre bounce, ball up and throw on) common sense would dictate that he would have won more hitouts than the 6 he did. That hypotethcial conversation you're saying isn't as ridiculous as someone 3cm taller getting first hands on what is essentially a random sequence of ball movements. It's like tossing a coin 60 times, it landing on Heads 54 of the time and thinking that the coin isn't rigged.
 

Mattdougie

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But use your common sense. Tim English is 3cm taller than Grundy (I know he's skinnier but still). Over the course of 60+ stoppages, if English had been trying to win every single hitout he contested, with that height and reach advantage, and the fact you've got three different types of ball coming in (centre bounce, ball up and throw on) common sense would dictate that he would have won more hitouts than the 6 he did. That hypotethcial conversation you're saying isn't as ridiculous as someone 3cm taller getting first hands on what is essentially a random sequence of ball movements. It's like tossing a coin 60 times, it landing on Heads 54 of the time and thinking that the coin isn't rigged.

No it’s ridiculous

No coach in history has told a player not to try and expecially Bev.

Watch how many times Tim over jumped Grundy early and Grundy just stepped aside and grabbed or palmed the ball

You CANNOT plan that or make he oppo Rick do what you want.

I’m sorry but no one that has coached footy at any level will tell you that this just does not happen. If we wanted to tank the ruck they simply would have put Dunkley in there.
 

_Mike_

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Grundy is a machine when it comes to his body work and endurance, so comparing English to Grundy is apples v oranges. Our ruck situation is a difficult one and with Boyd not being around this places the entire load on English’s shoulders.

Still our defensive structure and decision making is a concern for me. How many times did the ball get turned over across our backline resulting in a goal to Collingwood on Fri night. A few...
 
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Been a lot of talk about Hunter. My two bobs worth. Yes he is an outside link player with average disposal yet his drop off has been in his defence. Barely lays a tackle anymore, zero on the weekend and unfortunately has fallen into the trap of unless he can get the ball the effort drops off, no chasing, harassing, frantic attack on the ball etc. So when we value him you need to compare it to his opponent (usually various people) through out the game. Thats when Hunter value is diminished. Compare that to Macrae who has gone the other way, lifted greatly in this department much more physical and looks to spot a man up.

Hunter can lift though just need to get back to working harder, looking more to spot a man and not worry so much about dropping in the hole for nothing possessions.

We need another clean ball user into the side, I'd go Lynch, he was good on friday in the twos.
 
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Grundy is a machine when it comes to his body work and endurance, so comparing English to Grundy is apples v oranges. Our ruck situation is a difficult one and with Boyd not being around this places the entire load on English’s shoulders.

Still our defensive structure and decision making is a concern for me. How many times did the ball get turned over across our backline resulting in a goal to Collingwood on Fri night. A few...
I agree

English is just starting out nevertheless he should have won a number of free kicks as Grundy manhandled him

English is lightly framed however there’s been plenty of ruckman like that in the past, so I’m not allowing for that (comments of others)

You are also correct English needs help; I would go with both Sweet & Boyd.

The trouble with English is his to nice, we need the Hawthorn approach, knock the opposing ruckman off his feet at the first bounce.

I also agree with your second point.

An old coach of mine once said the team with the least amount of mistakes wins.
 

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Don't you find it counter intuitive that we are playing English to fast.track him while at the same instructing him to lose ruck contests on purpose?


Or are we fast.tracking him.to be a loser?

Cool.retention strategy.
His work around the ground is improving. Bevo simply doesn't rate pure tap ruckman and sees the remainder of a ruckman's game as being more important.

In our first three weeks we were smashed in hitouts but still won clearances so I can see the merit in the theory. 2-3 times per year though we will come up against a Gawn/Grundy who will make it much more difficult. I suspect in 2-3 years we'll be glad we pumped games into English.
 

Mr. Walker

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A couple of thoughts. I was not at the game, only saw it on TV.
I take on board the comments of posters that Lloyd was our best forward. Given the performances of the other Bulldogs forwards over the whole game, the year to date and in comparison with the forward lines of some other AFL clubs I do not see this as high praise or conclusive proof of a great performance. He, like some others I could name (looking at you Schache, Gowers, Dickson, Dunkley) had too few involvements. Picking and choosing should not be an option.
No talk about the umpires, please. We lost because of turnovers and not being competitive in the ruck. Their forwards being faster didn’t help either. With Grundy expanding the area of his taps in the last quarter our midfield was stretched too thin in trying to contain their mids.
I think investing in English is a good decision by the coach but give the boy some help please. Trengove to come in to provide a contest.
I would have preferred Lewis Young to have played. Let’s invest in him and have a good look. Collingwood played Moore and Roughead down back and judging by the result didn’t lose too much run by it. I get the argument about lack of match ups, loss of run and our game style but imo we need to develop a KPD quickly.
Sadly, I expect a turnover every time Wallis gets the ball. He must play forward more where I think he is good.
Duryea, Suckling, Crozier, Daniel, Richards and JJ. How many HBFs does one team need? At the end of 2018 I thought Richards should move to the wing as he had the pace and ability to score that we lacked (and we had plenty of cover for the HBF position). It’s not working currently but I hope it works out eventually. (Why we got Duryea is another question)

Just on that last point. With Duryea, Daniel and JJ back there it is hardly the land of the giants. I think we do need some more height back there. I haven't checked the stats but the Collingwwod backs (Rough and Moore aside) looked taller than our guys. Might be just the vertical striped vs hoops but i think we need more height.
 
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