Don Bradman....

[hourn]

allright, the guy is a legend, there is no doubting that. Both on and off the field he is a legend and a hero of mine. But can we please let him be now.

He has done all he needs to in life for me to declare a legend of the human race, and Roland Perry has done nothing for him by producing this poms v aussies book.

The first book was allright, although there are still doubts as to the legitimacy of it, I do think it was Bradman's team but i see why people have doubts.

As Mike Gibson said in a column up here 'in life he never gave an interview and we never heard a whimper from him. Now he's dead we can't shut him up'

Let him Rest in Peace - he has done all he has too for us mere mortals.

 

[Dipper]

Both his best ever side & these England & Austrlian teams contain some pretty iffy selections as far as I'm concerned.

By the players he picks he seems to be sending out the message that there were loads of great players around when he played, there's so many of these old timers about that make out it was so much tougher when they played.

 

[Booze Hound]

He was just a flat track bully anyway.

 

[Slax]

The one thing that you forget about playing in the time before covers is that pitches were left open to the weather. This meant that the pitch could chane considerably during the test. The players today are slightly different but the basics about tactics have not changed.

In the current England v India series Hussain has a theory about Tendulkar which seems to be working alright just as players had theories about how to stop players back then; although some were less than savoury.

Bradman's stats stand up against time just look at the averages. Only a couple of players have finished above 60. And nobody doubts the ability of Sobers and Richards so Booze Hound shut up until know what your talking about.

 

[Hank Jones]

Originally posted by Booze Hound
He was just a flat track bully anyway.

Finally some sense!! According to Tiger O'reilly (I believe) this "off-the-field legend" also disliked Catholics, Jews and the lower classes.
Great batsman...................well I'll leave it at that.


ok folks, let the tirade begin.

 

[Dogwatcher]

Bradman - against the lower classes? Unlikely as he was born there and would've remained there if it weren't for his extraordinary skills with the willow.

I'm not saying this is correct, but I always had the impression that Tiger was a little bitter about the hand he was dealt - having to play second fiddle to Bradman. So his impression of Bradman might not be as pure as other people's.

However, I do agree - let Bradman go. Crikey, he's had more books written about him than any other Australian, including Ned Kelly.
Unless something tell all comes out about his life, everyone's supposed to have some skeletons in his closet, I don't think any new books about the greatest dead Australian can really contribute anything else to cricket literature. Roland, we've heard it all b4, so stop! Now!

 

[Booze Hound]

Slax

I'd place a small wager that I know great deal more about the history of cricket than you do.

I could refer to the writing of Cardus, Fingleton, Peebles and others which suggested when the pitch got difficult Bradman would have a few wild swings and get out. Bradman himself said he didn't think players (batsmen) should be expected to play on bad pitches.

I recall C.L.R.James comparing in depth Bradman's record on broken pitches against that of George Headley. Let's just say there was a clear winner.

Simply for this reason I would place Jack Hobbs, Victor Trumper and W.G.Grace above Bradman, quite possibly Hammond and Headley as well.

 

[Dogwatcher]

Hey Boozer,
Just wondering what's in your cricket book collection?
It would be cool to know.
Mine's fairly large but probably very Australian.

 

[Booze Hound]

C'L.R. James was from the West Indies. I don't 'rate his opinion over anyone else's' but point out that he is only one of many who have expressed a similar opinion about Bradman's falliblity in less than perfect conditions.

Dogwatcher.

My collection is large and varied covering the likes of Cardus, Robertson-Glasgow, Fingleton, Alan Ross, Peebles, Moyes, A.A.Thompson, Mihir Bose, Arlott, Swanton, Frith, Wellings, Scyld Berry, Frank Keating and others. Some judicious use of the local Library system also comes in handy.

 

[hourn]

Originally posted by Booze Hound
C'L.R. James was from the West Indies. I don't 'rate his opinion over anyone else's' but point out that he is only one of many who have expressed a similar opinion about Bradman's falliblity in less than perfect conditions.

hmmmmmmm, it would be very hard to make such a comparison, as you would have to sit through every match, and determine the rate of deteration of the pitch as well - in essense, it is very hard to do such a study.

But with an average of 99.94, it simply can't be rated against. It is so far above everyone elses it just defies belief.

The equivalent of a boxer going 50 undefeated fights in a row.

The reason that Bradman's record would be lower on worn pitches, if it is in fact, would be mostly due to his very unorthodox technique. he holds his hands apart slightly on the bat, which is not very highly recommended, and also has his top hand turned slightly, which is a more wideley publisiced feauture of his grap.

 

[Booze Hound]

James actually did study reports of all Bradmans and Headley's First Class matches with regard to pitch conditions.

 

[hourn]

As in getting match reports???

Which are not entirely accurate, especially pre-WWII.

Then there is how much deteration much take place for it to be considered. It is very subjective. I tend to just look at 99.94 and see uncomorable - its much easier. Cricket is a simple game, which is tried to make complicated by fools.

 

[Dipper]

Originally posted by Booze Hound
He was just a flat track bully anyway.

Weren't most of the pitches in England & Australia 'shirt fronts' in the late 20's/30s anyway, only occasionally becoming batsmen's nightmares when it rained & they got caught on a drying pitch due to the lack of covering?

The high scores from this era seem to suggest that all the batsmen had it pretty good most of the time, hence the seemingly impressive averages of a whole host of players such as Hobbs,Sutcliffe,Hammond,Hutton from England.

There was a guy who used to post on here (the Ghost?) & he used to provide pretty interesting bio's of leading Test cricketers, he did one for Bill Ponsford once & it was entitled 'how did Pony sleep last night?', which related to Ponsford hating to bat on a wet wicket & how he could barely sleep if there was any rain.As he was rated the best batsman in the world for a while before Bradman & was renowned for the number of huge scores he made it seems that perhaps batsmen of this era were indeed a bit spoiled & had it relatively easy.

I'm no fan of Bradman but I reckon his average still suggests that he was head & shoulders above any one else even if IMO batting averages from that period are perhaps 10-20% higher than they should be in 'real' terms.


As for Bradman & O'Reilly, didn't O'Reilly many years later when asked about his feelings on Bradman say something like 'I'm not going to p*ss on him, he's a national institutuion & you don't p*ss on national institutions'

 

[Booze Hound]

Dipper

A lot of the pitches of the period were 'shirt fronts'. The habit started big time in Australia during the 20's and spread to England. However, unconvered pitches and the English climate provided rather more hope for the bowlers on occassions.

The likes of Hammond still scored heavily on rain affected pitches. Hobbs, of course, played one of the great innings of all time in the company of Sutcliffe at the Oval in 1926 on very difficult ground. They accepted it as part of the game and, to some extent, mastered it.

The batting of Grace and Trumper on rain damaged pitches was also something to marvel at.

I know the chapter "How did Ponny sleep?" Very good.

 

[NYPomme]

Originally posted by Booze Hound
Dogwatcher.

My collection is large and varied covering the likes of Cardus, Robertson-Glasgow, Fingleton, Alan Ross, Peebles, Moyes, A.A.Thompson, Mihir Bose, Arlott, Swanton, Frith, Wellings, Scyld Berry, Frank Keating and others. Some judicious use of the local Library system also comes in handy.

A.A. Thomson, surely? Great book on Hearst and Rhodes