Don Dale Centre videos on 4 corners: treatment of children in custody (Northern Territory)

[Mofra]

The best and most effective punishment used to be to take their ciggies away. Are they even allowed to smoke anymore?

It's been trialled in adult prisons in different states.
...Resulting in riots and a whole host of unintended consequences. Jury's still out on it being an effective policy.

 

[Watchyourwaite]

I think that you are missing a good point from the program and that is the sentencing of Aboriginal children.
In the program there was a first offender for car theft, not sure that a white boy would be in detention for a first offence of that kind and being treated in the manner he was.

As has been confirmed this seems to have been happening for some years and nothing has been addressed to date and if it took a program such as 4Corners to bring to the attention of all us then well done to them.

Not sure I would agree that it is about Lawyers making a name for themselves and can't see how you got that from only seeing part of the program, how is that relevant?

For me it showed not only that there wasn't sufficient training of staff but there seems to be something lacking in the original selection of staff.
What characteristics or attributes were they looking for?

Was it his first offense?
Or first time in detention?
Or first time charged, instead of having the charges dropped due to age and circumstances?

But, I'm not arguing against the inherent racism in the judicial system.
I'm just annoyed at Bath and the others who are doing their best to be shocked and outraged, while covering their tracks and pretending to be crusaders.

So much needs to be looked into, instead of just attacking the kids or the correctional officers.

The families, the homes, the poverty. The total lack of funding and supervision to all the needed areas.


No excuse for the thug who raged out and leaned over Dylan Voller, deliberately to intimidate and scare him. Should have been let go immediately after being disciplined. (But I'm sure nothing would have come of it).
Dylan is a kid. But he is dangerous and very smart. (He never had a chance in this world, but that all started before he ever set foot in Don Dale).

There is no excuse for the correctional officer to have behaved in that manner. But it would be a human reaction to a violent criminal telling you that he will murder your wife and rape your daughter (Calling her by her name, and stating your address).
But, while it's a human reaction, if you cannot control your impulses, you shouldn't be in that position to begin with.


What will come of this, is

All the correctional officers will lose their jobs and be shamed and stigmatised.
Bath will walk away looking like a hero.
Elferink will continue riding around on his Harley.

Lots of people will pat themselves on the back.

Nothing will be changed to fix the problem.
The kids won't be helped or saved.
Funding won't be fixed.
They will be forced to quickly hire a whole new staff of anyone available, under-train them. But as long as they give them a stack of papers to sign that say's that they understand their responsibilities, and agree to the code of conduct (that no one will read) then the problem is solved.
Higher ups are safe, because the employee signed the paper saying they received adequate training and things.​

But everyone will feel better, because now the kids are safe, the baddies have been punished and we can forget about the entire thing again.

 

[Maggie5]

Was it his first offense?
Or first time in detention?
Or first time charged, instead of having the charges dropped due to age and circumstances?

But, I'm not arguing against the inherent racism in the judicial system.
I'm just annoyed at Bath and the others who are doing their best to be shocked and outraged, while covering their tracks and pretending to be crusaders.

So much needs to be looked into, instead of just attacking the kids or the correctional officers.

The families, the homes, the poverty. The total lack of funding and supervision to all the needed areas.


No excuse for the thug who raged out and leaned over Dylan Voller, deliberately to intimidate and scare him. Should have been let go immediately after being disciplined. (But I'm sure nothing would have come of it).
Dylan is a kid. But he is dangerous and very smart. (He never had a chance in this world, but that all started before he ever set foot in Don Dale).

There is no excuse for the correctional officer to have behaved in that manner. But it would be a human reaction to a violent criminal telling you that he will murder your wife and rape your daughter (Calling her by her name, and stating your address).
But, while it's a human reaction, if you cannot control your impulses, you shouldn't be in that position to begin with.


What will come of this, is

All the correctional officers will lose their jobs and be shamed and stigmatised.
Bath will walk away looking like a hero.
Elferink will continue riding around on his Harley.

Lots of people will pat themselves on the back.

Nothing will be changed to fix the problem.
The kids won't be helped or saved.
Funding won't be fixed.
They will be forced to quickly hire a whole new staff of anyone available, under-train them. But as long as they give them a stack of papers to sign that say's that they understand their responsibilities, and agree to the code of conduct (that no one will read) then the problem is solved.
Higher ups are safe, because the employee signed the paper saying they received adequate training and things.​

But everyone will feel better, because now the kids are safe, the baddies have been punished and we can forget about the entire thing again.

First offence, again not sure of your point here when you compare to my original post (compare to white people).

Agree much more needs to be looked into but at least now, the world is watching as there have been previous reports enquiries and little to no action and I am amused by the pollies that are surprised and say they didn't know and then backtrack and say, they did hear about it.

I believe some of the correctional officers were charged but not found guilty, surprise?

Sometimes it is not all about training, it can be just as much about the personality traits of the applicants and many can be weeded out at that stage.

I have more hope about the future than you do it seems.

 

[Watchyourwaite]

First offence, again not sure of your point here when you compare to my original post (compare to white people).

Agree much more needs to be looked into but at least now, the world is watching as there have been previous reports enquiries and little to no action and I am amused by the pollies that are surprised and say they didn't know and then backtrack and say, they did hear about it.

I believe some of the correctional officers were charged but not found guilty, surprise?

Sometimes it is not all about training, it can be just as much about the personality traits of the applicants and many can be weeded out at that stage.

I have more hope about the future than you do it seems.

I don't know what hope for the future means. Sounds like a facebook status.

How much do you know about this victim/criminal/child/young adult?
First offense. So it was his first charge? He has never been picked up by police before and taken home, rather than pressing charges?
Where were his parents?
Why is there no anger towards the parents of these kids?
The parents who never visited their children?


I stole a car when I was a teen, and I never went to gaol.
I know that if my circumstances (Family, economic situation, history) had been different, I definitely would have been arrested and charged.

 

[Maggie5]

I don't know what hope for the future means. Sounds like a facebook status.

Have no idea about what you mean about Facebook page?

I don't know what hope for the future means. Sounds like a facebook status.

How much do you know about this victim/criminal/child/young adult?
First offense. So it was his first charge? He has never been picked up by police before and taken home, rather than pressing charges?
Where were his parents?
Why is there no anger towards the parents of these kids?
The parents who never visited their children?

I only know what was shown and not sure how this is relevant to the treatment of the children shown on the program.

I stole a car when I was a teen, and I never went to gaol.
I know that if my circumstances (Family, economic situation, history) had been different, I definitely would have been arrested and charged.

You were lucky then, just goes to show that all the things you mention make a huge difference.

 

[skipper kelly]

It's been trialled in adult prisons in different states.
...Resulting in riots and a whole host of unintended consequences. Jury's still out on it being an effective policy.

I only ever worked with holding cells, max 14 days. It used to be the best way to calm them down. Threats of no ciggies was usually enough.

 

[Mofra]

I only ever worked with holding cells, max 14 days. It used to be the best way to calm them down. Threats of no ciggies was usually enough.

Was that in Victoria?
There was a NT-wide plan circulated a few months ago from memory.

More power to you, I wouldn't want to do the job if every inmate was suffering nicotine withdrawal on top of whatever the hell else is going on. Mate of mine spent time in remand and says he had it easy as he has nothing to do with ice but a high % of people in there were either using or dealing.

 

[skipper kelly]

Was that in Victoria?
There was a NT-wide plan circulated a few months ago from memory.

More power to you, I wouldn't want to do the job if every inmate was suffering nicotine withdrawal on top of whatever the hell else is going on. Mate of mine spent time in remand and says he had it easy as he has nothing to do with ice but a high % of people in there were either using or dealing.

Last century for me Mofra but in the police where I only worked at places with 14 day holding cells, so it is a lot removed from the prisons. I am no expert whatsoever and much has changed in that time but one principle remains the same. Keep them happy and they will be happy. It would be hard enough doing time let alone not being able to smoke, if you are a smoker. But as for kids, very rarely were the held longer than 24 hours and you would probably get in the s**t for giving them smokes now.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Last century for me Mofra but in the police where I only worked at places with 14 day holding cells, so it is a lot removed from the prisons. I am no expert whatsoever and much has changed in that time but one principle remains the same. Keep them happy and they will be happy. It would be hard enough doing time let alone not being able to smoke, if you are a smoker. But as for kids, very rarely were the held longer than 24 hours and you would probably get in the s**t for giving them smokes now.

I remember the week before the smoking cessation in Victoria, I was facilitating a group at The Melbourne Remand Centre. All the fellas told ne they were goin' to riot and tear the place apart.

Were true to their word.

Have to agree with you on the therapeutic powers of a ciggie'n'a chinwag

 

[skipper kelly]

I remember the week before the smoking cessation in Victoria, I was facilitating a group at The Melbourne Remand Centre. All the fellas told ne they were goin' to riot and tear the place apart.

Were true to their word.

Have to agree with you on the therapeutic powers of a ciggie'n'a chinwag

Is it still banned? Do they have smoking areas now?

 

[Watchyourwaite]

I only know what was shown and not sure how this is relevant to the treatment of the children shown on the program.

Exactly. You only think you know, based on what you were told to think.
But you don't actually know.

You think that this teen made a single mistake, was locked up and put straight into the BMU. You don't actually know the history and the story behind how he was finally charged (And the entirety of the charge), and what he did to end up in the BMU.

You have it that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and acted out because he was being tortured in an evil isolation cell.
Thus all of his actions are justified.


You hear a guy saying "let the kid through, I'll pulverise him" or whatever was said.
I hear an undertrained loser, scared shitless, with no idea what to do.

You hear them laughing at the teens after the tear gas, like they are taking pleasure in the pain.
I see some scared shitless losers with nervous laughter and false bravado, releasing after a tense standoff that went for hours.

These morons are not evil incarnate. They are mostly uneducated untrained grunts.

s**t from the narrator "videos that you were never meant to see." Straight from the ACA playbook.


My problem is, that this isn't looking to fix the problem, it isn't looking to take out the people who are actually responsible. It isn't even looking to help the kids who are locked up.
It is sensationalism doing a disservice to a genuine issue.

You were lucky then, just goes to show that all the things you mention make a huge difference.

I'm completely aware of that, as are most people. Which is why I look at this as more of a back patting exercise than something to actually help the kids or curb the apparent institutionalised racism in our justice system.
It isn't an epidemic in Darwin. It's a pandemic.

It could be argued that it is more lower socioeconomic than race. But I think it's a mix.

Have no idea about what you mean about Facebook page?

"I have more hope about the future than you do it seems"
That's what I'm talking about.

Varying degrees of hope for the future? What meaningless feel-goodery is that?
Leave it on facebook where it belongs.

 

[Pie eyed]

I find that amazing, do you think they'd get on national television or print and cheer it on?

Hollow condemnation from a lot of 'em for mine. I reckon half of them deep down don't really give a stuff.

So you think that the across the board condemnation of the acts is just a front, that really they agree and would happily dish out the same treatment?

It's all a conspiracy to make your opinion look isolated?

 

[Watchyourwaite]

I mean, it's being called abuse, that the teens had to eat food with their hands.
Who the hell wrote the rules for at risk? Because it states they're not to be given any utensils, because they could attempt self-harm with them. Even plastic spoons can be a weapon.

And considering a lot of of the food given would have been apples, muesli bars, bananas, sandwiches. Is it really 'barbarism', 'inhumanity', 'child abuse' and 'torture' that they ate with their bare hands?


And the stripping of at risk is also following the procedure that someone being paid lots of money, wrote up.
All clothing must be removed to make sure they are not hiding anything that they can harm themselves or others with.
All clothing must also be removed, and replaced with special at risk stuff, so that they won't be able to choke or hang themselves.


The guards in most of the clips seem to be doing exactly as they are supposed to do.
But the rich bastard who wrote up the guidelines is untouched.

I'd love for some actual investigative journalism into the entire thing. Instead of this easy sensationalist piece.

 

[Feerits Elf]

And considering a lot of of the food given would have been apples, muesli bars, bananas, sandwiches. Is it really 'barbarism', 'inhumanity', 'child abuse' and 'torture' that they ate with their bare hands?

 

[Maggie5]

These morons are not evil incarnate. They are mostly uneducated untrained grunts.

Isn't this comment an assumption on your part yet you question my assumption?

E
My problem is, that this isn't looking to fix the problem, it isn't looking to take out the people who are actually responsible. It isn't even looking to help the kids who are locked up.

So you have already up your mind before the RC has begun? I disagree as I believe a lot more people will be interested in the outcome and suggestions on how this doesn't occur again and what changes need to be made going forward.

Why are you fixated on Facebook?

 

[Watchyourwaite]

Big thing the show didn't mention.
The reason so many of the kids were in there for their birthdays and for christmas?
Because on their birthday they got cake, and they had at least some people around them that cared about them.

Bday coming up, or xmas coming up? No problem, steal a car and go hooning.
Get locked up for a couple of months and get fed better and treated better than you do on the outside. Get a cake, get people singing happy bday to you.

What happened to the family who lost the car and didn't have insurance? Too bad.
What happened to the people they crash in to, or nearly run over etc? Too bad.


Dylan Voller was so tortured, that when he was released he used to call Don Dale once a week just to chat to the correctional officers.

 

[Watchyourwaite]

Isn't this comment an assumption on your part yet you question my assumption?



So you have already up your mind before the RC has begun? I disagree as I believe a lot more people will be interested in the outcome and suggestions on how this doesn't occur again and what changes need to be made going forward.

Why are you fixated on Facebook?

My comment isn't an assumption.

And yeah, look at how successful all the previous RCs have been in taking down the main people responsible.

 

[Maggie5]

My comment isn't an assumption.

And yeah, look at how successful all the previous RCs have been in taking down the main people responsible.

Oh good, let's forget about it then, carry on...

 

[Watchyourwaite]

Oh good, let's forget about it then, carry on...

Or, why don't we actually do something about it? Instead of a group back patting session, and then forgetting about it again.
It's not like this is new.
It's not like everyone wasn't already aware of the skewed incarceration numbers of Indigenous people.


All these people that have known full well about everything, all the procedures and lack of training and lack of funding, for years. Now crying crocodile tears on 4corners.
NAAJA are some of the worst. They aren't there to help the kids or rehabilitate them. They just tell them what to do, to make it easier for them to get away with committing crimes. They tell them to wear gloves and admit to nothing.
During role play with the kids, they pretend to punch police, and it's a big laugh.

Shard wiping away tears like he is just so overcome by it all.


No one is innocent. Everyone in the 4corners piece is guilty.

 

[Maggie5]

Or, why don't we actually do something about it? Instead of a group back patting session, and then forgetting about it again.
It's not like this is new.
It's not like everyone wasn't already aware of the skewed incarceration numbers of Indigenous people.


All these people that have known full well about everything, all the procedures and lack of training and lack of funding, for years. Now crying crocodile tears on 4corners.
NAAJA are some of the worst. They aren't there to help the kids or rehabilitate them. They just tell them what to do, to make it easier for them to get away with committing crimes. They tell them to wear gloves and admit to nothing.
During role play with the kids, they pretend to punch police, and it's a big laugh.

Shard wiping away tears like he is just so overcome by it all.


No one is innocent. Everyone in the 4corners piece is guilty.

Yeah let's blame 4 Corners, why not?
Not sure where the group patting is coming from, you seem to imply that you know a lot about it but some of us don't.
Strange, I thought that is what the RC is going to do but you aren't interested in giving it a chance.
Is one of the correctional officers a friend?

 

[Watchyourwaite]

Yeah let's blame 4 Corners, why not?
Not sure where the group patting is coming from, you seem to imply that you know a lot about it but some of us don't.
Strange, I thought that is what the RC is going to do but you aren't interested in giving it a chance.
Is one of the correctional officers a friend?

I didn't blame four corners.

Seriously getting a headache trying to converse with you.

 

[Maggie5]

I didn't blame four corners.

Seriously getting a headache trying to converse with you.

You make broad statements like group patting, everyone is guilty, all was know before, NAAJA (whoever they are) are some of the worst and so on and you you have the headache?

Sorry for believing that because of the media and the public response, that this RC and the outcomes and recommendations will start making a difference.

Again, is one of the correction officers a friend?

 

[Watchyourwaite]

You make broad statements like group patting, everyone is guilty, all was know before, NAAJA (whoever they are) are some of the worst and so on and you you have the headache?

Sorry for believing that because of the media and the public response, that this RC and the outcomes and recommendations will start making a difference.

Again, is one of the correction officers a friend?

You are so woefully uninformed.

"Sorry for believing"
I don't think you even read or understood any of my posts.

Is one a friend? I don't know. Give me a name and I'll tell you.

 

[Maggie5]

You are so woefully uninformed.

"Sorry for believing"
I don't think you even read or understood any of my posts.

Is one a friend? I don't know. Give me a name and I'll tell you.

I understood them very well.

 

[Ruck Machine]

Why have a commission into treatment of children in custody?

Why not treat the disease? i.e. massively dysfunctional Indigenous communities.

Looking at this issue arse backwards IMO.