Dont Be Fooled

[Les Grossman]

McMahon for pick 19 highlights his knowledge of what the right price is.

When we have played well McMahon has been in our best.
He is a soft downhill skier but as we get better he will be better for us.
Pick 19? probably not but I haven't given him up yet.
this is getting off topic so I wont keep going.

 

[beaver fever]

When we have played well McMahon has been in our best.
He is a soft downhill skier but as we get better he will be better for us.
Pick 19? probably not but I haven't given him up yet.
this is getting off topic so I wont keep going.

How can you possibly think he will improve? He has shown over the past 8 years he has chronic deficiencies and he isn't going to make some miraculous improvement in his 9th year. I wouldn't have taken him in the PSD.

 

[Les Grossman]

You must have missed the Danny Frawely years mate. Top up, top up and bust. You also must have missed McMahon for Ward(pick 19).

March is doing the right thing. Just as Costa did at Geelong and Smorgon did at the Dogs. Look where they are. Let the coach coach, the players play, the marketing people spin and the recruiters recruit. If Wallace can coach he shouldn't need excuses. I don't see Knights making excuses

I am not arguing with any of that. Its more about who answers to who and for mine it should be the coach's call on all things football. That removes any potential excuses.

Knights is in year one of his term. You would hope he doesnt need excuses.

 

[Les Grossman]

How can you possibly think he will improve? He has shown over the past 8 years he has chronic deficiencies and he isn't going to make some miraculous improvement in his 9th year. I wouldn't have taken him in the PSD.

He has played no good footy this year then?

 

[Les Grossman]

You must have missed the Danny Frawely years mate. Top up, top up and bust. You also must have missedMcMahon for Ward(pick 19).

March is doing the right thing. Just as Costa did at Geelong and Smorgon did at the Dogs. Look where they are. Let the coach coach, the players play, the marketing people spin and the recruiters recruit. If Wallace can coach he shouldn't need excuses. I don't see Knights making excuses

As I said earlier, If we let the memories of Spuds time affect every list management decision we make going forward we will never bring in a mature player again. The list is holding more talented youth now then at any time under Spuds leadership.

 

[beaver fever]

He has played no good footy this year then?

Not good enough. When he is bad, he is goddamn bad.

 

[Les Grossman]

Not good enough. When he is bad, he is goddamn bad.

I agree with you there.

I do think that as we have more good days so will he.

I am not convinced, just not turning on him yet.

 

[Maximus76]

the biggest risk facing richmond is the pressure being put on Wallace to make the finals...

if you had one season to make the finals would you pick the 17 year old pimple kid who still wets the bed....ahhh no

you would go after cousins or a kerr and possible other established player.

This is exactly what happened to freo with Connelly - the wa press and president put so much pressure on the him making the finals he just passed away draft picks chasing established players.

hopefully your right and richmond officials have this under control

 

[Les Grossman]

the biggest risk facing richmond is the pressure being put on Wallace to make the finals...

if you had one season to make the finals would you pick the 17 year old pimple kid who still wets the bed....ahhh no

you would go after cousins or a kerr and possible other established player.

This is exactly what happened to freo with Connelly - the wa press and president put so much pressure on the him making the finals he just passed away draft picks chasing established players.

hopefully your right and Richmond officials have this under control

Yeah I know where your coming from.
I dont think we are looking at bringing in several mature players like Freo though.

A brave move would be to sign him on a one year extension to remove the pressure. ( that should fire up a few on here!)

 

[Maximus76]

Yeah I know where your coming from.
I dont think we are looking at bringing in several mature players like Freo though.

A brave move would be to sign him on a one year extension to remove the pressure. ( that should fire up a few on here!)

that exactly what freo did before the end on connelly previous contract - the press jumped all over it and the pressure doubled for him to achieve something.

not just a richmond issue its and issue for any club who will fire a coach who doesnt make the finals - whos interest do they have at the trade and draft tables..if you were paying me 500+ i would do what ever it took for short term performance - possibly at the expense of the long term future of the club.

 

[deliberate!!]

completely disagree.

Its way too risky to do it your way, we did that with spud and he screwed the list for a decade. Coaches should coach, and list managers should list manage. Debate should be encouraged but winner of the battle of ideas sjould prevail, if there is disagreement, list manager wins every time.

Wallace is in the 5th year of his contract, the list has his fingerprints all over it, he should back himself in and make the finals with THEM. Why mortgage our future for a bloke with a suss body, crappy attitude, kerr is a star, but he is MASSIVE risk, we have to play the precentages.

And why would allow wallace to chooses his own boss, ridiculous. March has been superb in all this, wallet has been exposed for the political animal that he is. Just coach the side terry.

Beautiful words mate...........very intelligent.
Great post.

 

[nikolasmia]

Yeah I know where your coming from.
I dont think we are looking at bringing in several mature players like Freo though.

A brave move would be to sign him on a one year extension to remove the pressure. ( that should fire up a few on here!)

why exactly should the pressure be removed from wallace.

He has had a dream run for 4 years on 650k a year were he and miller did whatever they wanted, and not only was their no accountability, but there was no mechanism for measuring improvement, because miller did not implement one.

the equation is simple. Get the team into the finals or your coaching career will end. And dont even think about making a short term trade move to cover your arse.

March has been superb through all this, quite superb

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Les think you may not be understanding what peoples arguement is on this subject and why they support march in preference to TW in this matter. Firstly at most grades of football the senior coach use to oversee all football matters. Now even at lower grades football clubs have developement , recruiting and medical staff who all have equal input into the player list availability on a weekly basis.
Lastly don't reckon TW would have consulted the board before making the ridiculous statement, that he would walk if we didn't make finals in 09. Goes completely against the developement process which the club has been so heavily promoting this season. It is completely contridictive to be in a rebuilding phase and base your results solely on win/loss .

 

[Les Grossman]

Les think you may not be understanding what peoples arguement is on this subject and why they support march in preference to TW in this matter. Firstly at most grades of football the senior coach use to oversee all football matters. Now even at lower grades football clubs have developement , recruiting and medical staff who all have equal input into the player list availability on a weekly basis.
Lastly don't reckon TW would have consulted the board before making the ridiculous statement, that he would walk if we didn't make finals in 09. Goes completely against the developement process which the club has been so heavily promoting this season. It is completely contridictive to be in a rebuilding phase and base your results solely on win/loss .

Yep, I know the work load needs to spread and opinions sought before reaching a conclusion on any major decision.

But surely it is the coach who dictates what type of game style the team employs and instructs the recruiters to look for likely types to fill the requirements of that game plan.
Surely the coach provides an outline to all staff in terms of what he wants to develop as the strengths of the team to best suit his game style. Others should have input but the responsibiltiy should rest with one man at the top, the coach.

How can he be held responsible for the teams results if he has had a player list of anothers making to work with?

I guess I am on my own on this one.

 

[_RT_]

If Wallace sees enough in our list after 4 years of list building and now feels we are ready to add the final touches over the next 1-2 years for a tilt at a flag. then he is backing himself and our existing talent in. If he didn't feel we had a strong enough list he would be hosing down our expectations, not stepping up a gear.

By the way, getting a big name to Richmond is not mortgaging our future. Its one pick and a fringe player, not a complete draft lock out for three years.

What do you expect Wallace to say in the week after we've finished 9th?
"We're stuffed, there are plenty of holes that still need filling before we can be considered a serious threat for the finals". Of course he is going to talk the list up, its part of his job. Naturally there are those that see the following words 'finals', 'next year', 'top 8' & 'Richmond' and they automatically forget that this club has won 2 of the past 5 spoons and think 'Hey next year we're playing finals because Wallace said so'.

As for the belief that a big name isn't mortgaging our future, could you please explain how securing Kerr isn't exactly that. Considering it will take pick 2 top 10 picks to even get WC to consider the offer just who do you expect us to trade to get another top 10 pick. Would we get it for Hyde, JON or Casserly? Or would it take something like Foley, Tuck Or Deledio? Not much point getting Kerr in to strengthen our midfield when you have to sacrifice one of the people you want him to help to achieve getting him.

 

[_RT_]

Yep, I know the work load needs to spread and opinions sought before reaching a conclusion on any major decision.

But surely it is the coach who dictates what type of game style the team employs and instructs the recruiters to look for likely types to fill the requirements of that game plan.
Surely the coach provides an outline to all staff in terms of what he wants to develop as the strengths of the team to best suit his game style. Others should have input but the responsibiltiy should rest with one man at the top, the coach.

How can he be held responsible for the teams results if he has had a player list of anothers making to work with?

I guess I am on my own on this one.

Here is how I think it should run.

Wallace should have an input into the type of players he wants to add to the list. He goes to Jackson and Cameron and says I want another midfielder, a young ruckman to replace Simmo in a couple of years and a couple of KPP preferrably 1 defender & 1 forward. That should be where Wallaces input stops until such time that CC & FJ have found about 4-6 players that address each area. They then go to TW and say 'Terry we've found the following players that fit what you believe you need'. They then sit down go over the tapes of the kids and decide which ones they will chase hard and which ones they'll keep tabs on just in case their first priority falls through. They then head off to draft camp interview the players they are keen on and re-assess their needs. Along the way if a player that fills a need is available in trade week without sacrificing a pick in the first 2 rounds then we get them.

However this is how I think TW wants it to run:
I want him and I'm going to get him. Don't worry about what it costs to get him because if we get him we can play finals next year. If we don't I get the arse, resume commentary for Fox Sports and writing articles for the HUN and the next poor bastard can worry about the mess like I did after Frawley left.

Which one seems more appealing to your good self?

 

[beaver fever]

A bit harsh on TW there RT. I doubt he is that malevolent.

 

[cormick]

What do you expect Wallace to say in the week after we've finished 9th?
"We're stuffed, there are plenty of holes that still need filling before we can be considered a serious threat for the finals". Of course he is going to talk the list up, its part of his job. Naturally there are those that see the following words 'finals', 'next year', 'top 8' & 'Richmond' and they automatically forget that this club has won 2 of the past 5 spoons and think 'Hey next year we're playing finals because Wallace said so'.

As for the belief that a big name isn't mortgaging our future, could you please explain how securing Kerr isn't exactly that. Considering it will take pick 2 top 10 picks to even get WC to consider the offer just who do you expect us to trade to get another top 10 pick. Would we get it for Hyde, JON or Casserly? Or would it take something like Foley, Tuck Or Deledio? Not much point getting Kerr in to strengthen our midfield when you have to sacrifice one of the people you want him to help to achieve getting him.

I don't agree nor disagree with this post, but thought I'd reply anyway...We said we wanted two top ten picks for Ottens and had to settle for 12 and 16. I'd be pretty confident the Eagles would take pick 8 and between 20 and 25. So we would trade 8 and somehow downgrade our 2nd rounder for Kerr.
Which I don't want to do, but disagree with the "2 top 10 picks" part.

 

[_RT_]

A bit harsh on TW there RT. I doubt he is that malevolent.

Just calling it how I see it.

 

[_RT_]

I don't agree nor disagree with this post, but thought I'd reply anyway...We said we wanted two top ten picks for Ottens and had to settle for 12 and 16. I'd be pretty confident the Eagles would take pick 8 and between 20 and 25. So we would trade 8 and somehow downgrade our 2nd rounder for Kerr.
Which I don't want to do, but disagree with the "2 top 10 picks" part.

Again there is a difference, we could have lost Ottens for nothing, the Eagles have a contract with Kerr so wont lose him if they don't get what they want.

 

[cormick]

Again there is a difference, we could have lost Ottens for nothing, the Eagles have a contract with Kerr so wont lose him if they don't get what they want.

True...But they'll realise that if teams don't want to give 2 top 10 picks (which he isn't worth), they might have to budge and give in to something a little less than what they wanted.
Hopefully we don't have anything to do with all this though!

 

[_RT_]

True...But they'll realise that if teams don't want to give 2 top 10 picks (which he isn't worth), they might have to budge and give in to something a little less than what they wanted.
Hopefully we don't have anything to do with all this though!

Exactly. Concentrate on fixing areas we are lacking rather than adding to an area we are already strong in.

 

[Les Grossman]

I don't agree nor disagree with this post, but thought I'd reply anyway...We said we wanted two top ten picks for Ottens and had to settle for 12 and 16. I'd be pretty confident the Eagles would take pick 8 and between 20 and 25. So we would trade 8 and somehow downgrade our 2nd rounder for Kerr.
Which I don't want to do, but disagree with the "2 top 10 picks" part.

I agree, west coast will go for something like that.

I reckon we could trade Schulz or someone to get a second rounder in for this purpose. Keep one and give one to west coast.

 

[remind]

After watching the Bulldogs last night, they could very well be inetrested in trading for Schultz, They are so light on for Key talls.

As long as we hold onto Hughes, long term he will show he is worth it.

What about Richmond does something unheard of, don't change coach cause Media responds to one sentance of a Preisdents speach.
Look what the Cats did with Thompson and compare that to what St.Kilda did with Thomas. Which team is now so far futher ahead.
Many wanted Thompson gone.

Oh and can someone tell me who would replace Wallace?
Sheedy, that dream is over, time for that to happen well over
should of happened in 2000.
Matthews, no.

 

[Les Grossman]

Has anyone considered that perhaps Wallace actually believes our list is not far off the mark after 4 years and is now looking to add a touch of class to finish off the list, give the side a year more of development with Kerr or who ever we get in and be a real threat in 2010-11.

I read all the posts about our list being full of holes still. I dont agree.

Our backline has looked very promising, particularly with Rance coming through. Moore,Thursfield and McGuane are all very capable. We could use a small defender that can shut down a small forward but maybe Wallace sees Raines or someone coming into the side to fill this spot. Overall a very good line up in my opinion.

Our Midfield is coming on nicely and is the equal of most in the league.
Deledio and Foley are top liners,Tuck has become a reliable workhorse.Further improvement from Cotchin, Tambling and White can be expected and Cogs will further strengthen things if he is right.


I question how much longer Johnson will be up to it and would suggest Kerr would be a handy replacement that definitely brings more to the team than Johnson and also has an older, experienced head that we would need if Johnson was not there. Kerr would bring an attacking,go forward mindset that would be infectious compared to the stop,prop and go sideways game that Johnson gives us.
Overall a strong midfield with plenty of upside.

Our forward line is reasonable with good mid size options and a couple of potential key positions in Riewoldt and Schulz showing signs of being up to it. I would like another key target and see this as a weakness at this stage.

We are a ruckmen short and I dont think Patto is up to it.
Having said that we have a couple of young ruckmen on the list that need to be given time.

So as I see it our 'holes' are a ruckmen and a key forward.

Maybe Warnock is what Wallace has in mind when talking of chasing a player?

If you think our list will ever be complete with no weakness you are kidding yourself.

Geelong have the most well rounded list I've seen in a while and even they are getting around with a fairly ordinary key forward in Mooney. Put him at Richmond over the last 5 years and see what he would have done.

How did they fill holes a few years back when they were about 4-5 years in to Thompson's reign? They traded Ottens in for draft picks.

Hawthorn, a side most would consider a real chance this year or next, don't have the key back positions covered. Croad is their only genuine key defender.

You never know what can happen to your list. Polak and Cogs show that players can be gone quickly.

I say we are as close as any side to taking the next step to a top 4 team.

Lets have a go and back the side to develop and give it the extra player or two that we need. Its what Geelong did.

Before anyone brings up "thats what Frawley tried and look what happened" our list is far better and younger than the team Frawley stuffed. Also Wallace has more of a clue than Frawley ever did.

We bring in a gun this year along with some other kids through the draft and look at whats around next year. Players keep coming in. If Kerr arrives this year its not like we have that list only for the next 5 years.

Stop the negativity and have a crack!