Doping Thread

[Slax]

Yeah, nah. Up until recently with Sky, Wiggins lost time in all time-trials over 20 or so kms. Froome, no one had even heard of before last year's Vuelta. Now he's the best climber and the second best time-trialer of the Tour so far. Surrrrrrrrrre.

Wiggins over the last couple of years had improved over longer time trials so his result is not so surprising, but agree definitely a lot of eyebrows raised at his performance finishing so far ahead of the specialists. It definitely won't do anything to help clear up the image of the front end of the peleton all being on drugs.

 

[Noobz0r]

Geez guys give it a rest. It's not as if this has "come from nowhere" like everyone is claiming. Everyone knows that Wiggins is a great timetrialer. Froome is also very strong. Add that to the fact they have Geraint Thomas, Mick Rodgers, Richie Porte, EBH and Rigoberto Uran all on their list of riders

Have a quick look at froomes TT history, he has been mediocre for the last 4 seasons but suddenly smashed out a quick time today, and in the vuelta earlier this season.

2008 stage 4 tdf 29k, 33rd
2008 stage 16 tdf 53k, 16th
2009 stage 10 giro 62k, 34th
2009 stage 21 giro 14.5, 32nd
2010 stage 16 giro mountain tt, 39th
2011 stage 12 vuelta, 2nd

Not saying that he and sky are definitely doping, just seems a little crazy. Also not sure what the rest of the sky roster has to do with the argument.

 

[monty1104]

Also not sure what the rest of the sky roster has to do with the argument.

Nice selective quote You conveniently left out the part where I explained what the rest of the Sky squad had to do with it.

Also, Froome is only 27. He is coming close to his prime. The years before this he was a young rider that would have been on teams purely as a domestique. This is only his third year in the World Tour level. Riders generally will improve their performance with experience and training.

 

[Noobz0r]

Nice selective quote You conveniently left out the part where I explained what the rest of the Sky squad had to do with it.

skim reading ftw, sorry mate

 

[chargers 09]

Some serious improvement from Wiggins and Froome.

Yeh surely they're taking the piss

 

[monty1104]

skim reading ftw, sorry mate

All good

 

[Glacier]

The questions are being asked and rightly so
Also, is it just me or does Wiggins seem like an arrogant tool ??

 

[davis_756]

must be those chain rings and their odd shape

 

[Sigwald]

The questions are being asked and rightly so.

The question I would like to ask is: Why is Sky employing Geert Leinders as a team doctor? The guy supervised the systematic doping program at Rabobank since the 90's (left 2007)

And also Sean Yates as a manager is not entirely laying my fears at rest either.

 

[linda]

The questions are being asked and rightly so
Also, is it just me or does Wiggins seem like an arrogant tool ??

He is part Australian

 

[blue gunslinger]

The questions are being asked and rightly so
Also, is it just me or does Wiggins seem like an arrogant tool ??

he is wearing yellow

 

[Slax]

Have a quick look at froomes TT history, he has been mediocre for the last 4 seasons but suddenly smashed out a quick time today, and in the vuelta earlier this season.

2008 stage 4 tdf 29k, 33rd
2008 stage 16 tdf 53k, 16th
2009 stage 10 giro 62k, 34th
2009 stage 21 giro 14.5, 32nd
2010 stage 16 giro mountain tt, 39th
2011 stage 12 vuelta, 2nd

Not saying that he and sky are definitely doping, just seems a little crazy. Also not sure what the rest of the sky roster has to do with the argument.

ok lets have a look at these individually.
2008 stage 4 tdf 29k, 33rd
2008 stage 16 tdf 53k, 16th - 4 years ago still developing as a professional cyclist compared to track rider
2009 stage 10 giro 62k, 34th
2009 stage 21 giro 14.5, 32nd
2010 stage 16 giro mountain tt, 39th - Giro TTs are known for being very different to the Tour ones. They are much hillier and less favourable to pure TT specialists as they don't allow them to settle into an easy rthymn which is where they do the real damamge.
2011 stage 12 vuelta, 2nd Now starting to show his improvement over longer distances.

It has been no secret that Wiggins said he needed to improve his endurance if he was to be a real contender to win major tours. With improvement in endurance comes the ability to improve performance in the mountains and in time trials.

 

[Vader]

The TT results of Wiggins & Froome have raised the biggest "I am doping" stink since Riccardo Ricco back in 2008. I can buy that Wiggins is a better time trial rider than Evans. What I can't buy is that Froome is 30 seconds better than Cancellara - and Wiggins is 30 seconds better than Froome. There's no way on earth these riders could have achieved these results without being on the juice.

In contrast, Evans' result was pretty much what was expected - he had a good ride, finishing 46sec down on Cancellara, in a time which would have surprised nobody.

Then there's the questions over the Sky train's ability to destroy everyone except Evans & Nibali. Richie Porte & Michael Rogers riding the pants off the likes of Menchov? I don't think so. I think that whole team is on the juice, particularly Wiggins. One can only assume that they have something which can't be detected at present. One can only hope that they get stripped (and banned retrospectively) when the detection technology catches up.

PS.. Did anyone catch the documentary last night about the 1988 Seoul Olympics 100m race. Thought the comments at the end were interesting, about going back and re-testing the 1984 samples using 2010's detection technology, and the number of positives that they found. Here's hoping they do something similar with old TdF samples.

 

[Caesar]

Lettuce be real here. Everyone on the Tour is juiced.

Look at the Tours from the late 90s up until Landis - now that the US Postal fiasco is coming out, pretty much every rider on every podium during that period has been directly or indirectly implicated in or convicted of doping at some point in their careers. Yet the current winners are still turning in performances comparable to those years. Stage winning times haven't suddenly dropped. Seriously, join the dots.

As much as I'd like to believe guys like Evans are clean, recent history says it's far more likely he's just on something that he hasn't been caught for yet and the only question is whether he will finish his career and get away with it. Same goes for UK Postal, and Sagan, and Cancellara, and any other top rider.

Long ago I came to the conclusion that if you want to enjoy cycling, you have to abandon any notions of 'fairness'. Just take it on face value - it is an extremely tough, very competitive, highly nuanced and exciting sport. To that extent, whether or not people are doping does not matter. It is still a wonderful spectacle.

 

[Vader]

I'm not under any great illusions about Cadel being clean. That said, I have to disagree with your comments about them turning in performances comparable to previous years. There were quite a few articles published around the time of last year's TdF noting how much slower they were on the big climbs than previous years - and how they actually looked like they were completely shattered when they hit the top, where EPO riders would get to the top looking as fresh as a daisy.

In an ideal world, I'd love for the entire peloton to be clean. That's unlikely, given that a French nobody rider got arrested overnight for drug usage. If he was on the juice and wasn't even vaguely competitive.. what does that say about the riders ahead of him?

No, what I really object to is the situation we had on Monday night where the cheating was so blatant and outrageous.

With Martin injured from an earlier crash, Cancellara is/was the undisputed world champion in the time trial. He had a bad year in 2011, but was showing every sign of being back to his triple-world-championship winning best. Froome destroyed him to the tune of 30 seconds. Wiggins blew him away to the tune of a minute. Neither are in Cancellara's league when it comes to riding a TT, yet both made him look pedestrian. There can only be one conclusion.. and I hope the entire Sky Team gets rubbed out before the race is finished.

 

[Caesar]

That said, I have to disagree with your comments about them turning in performances comparable to previous years. There were quite a few articles published around the time of last year's TdF noting how much slower they were on the big climbs than previous years - and how they actually looked like they were completely shattered when they hit the top, where EPO riders would get to the top looking as fresh as a daisy.

That's a pretty subjective assessment. The bottom line is that these guys are not finishing races in any shorter period of time than the guys who were all quite clearly doped up to their eyeballs. Heck, Tom Boonen just set the fastest time for Paris-Roubaix in over 50 years.

The situation is what it is. There's not much point getting upset at Sky just for cheating more effectively than everyone else.

 

[Andronicus]

I hope the entire Sky Team gets rubbed out before the race is finished.

How likely do you think this is to happen?

 

[Vader]

How likely do you think this is to happen?

Wouldn't be the first time it's happened - think Festina. If multiple riders test positive then I have no doubt that the entire team will be thrown out. The question is whether the current testing regime is able to detect whatever it is that they're using. My money is on "No".

That's a pretty subjective assessment. The bottom line is that these guys are not finishing races in any shorter period of time than the guys who were all quite clearly doped up to their eyeballs. Heck, Tom Boonen just set the fastest time for Paris-Roubaix in over 50 years.

The situation is what it is. There's not much point getting upset at Sky just for cheating more effectively than everyone else.

It's not subjective at all. They measured the time that the lead riders took in ascending several of the major climbs, most notably the Alpe d'Huez. From memory they were 3-4min slower on that climb last year than they were in the Armstrong EPO years. Times measured on other climbs (possibly the Galibier) showed the same thing. How fresh the riders appeared might be subjective, but their times are not.

The top riders last year probably weren't clean, but whatever they were one wasn't as effective at boosting performance as the old EPO regimes.

 

[LeverPuller]

Anyone else getting the sinking feeling that Sky may just be up to the suss stuff?

 

[stormee]

I am astonished by Wiggins looking so emaciated, he could have been an extra on Schindlers List. His weight at the 2008 olympics was 82kg, he now weighs 69kg. This guy is 190cm tall.
He is still killing the TT as well.

You know who he looks like? Michael Rassmussen. And we all know how that finished.

 

[THRILLHO]

Anyone else getting the sinking feeling that Sky may just be up to the suss stuff?

It sucks.

And the worst thing is the US Postal team are only just being brought to justice 14 years after the fact.

I'm not saying Sky are doping, but it sucks to watch cycling with a skeptical eye again (if you could ever really believe it was clean).

 

[Caesar]

It's not subjective at all. They measured the time that the lead riders took in ascending several of the major climbs, most notably the Alpe d'Huez. From memory they were 3-4min slower on that climb last year than they were in the Armstrong EPO years. Times measured on other climbs (possibly the Galibier) showed the same thing. How fresh the riders appeared might be subjective, but their times are not.

Time taken on climbs in particular are hugely variable dependent on the current strategic position of the race, number of breakaways, quality of riders in the breakaways, etc. Comparing one year to another and drawing conclusions based on the two isn't really very meaningful.

Take a look at the times clocked over races with fixed courses over the last 10 years, like the Classics. There's virtually no difference between the doping years and now.

 

[LeverPuller]

It sucks.

And the worst thing is the US Postal team are only just being brought to justice 14 years after the fact.

I'm not saying Sky are doping, but it sucks to watch cycling with a skeptical eye again (if you could ever really believe it was clean).

I know, it's f@#$ing awful. The problem I have isn't necessarily with Wiggins, although the way he's suddenly started going and blowing the two kings of the time trial out of the water is concerning in and of itself. Chris Froome's first race in 2012 was the Romandie, and he finished 50th in the ITT. After a month, his second tour for the season he manages to crack out a time only a minute shy of the world TT champion and equal with a guy he was beaten by in the Commonwealth Games 2 years ago by over a MINUTE. And now, in his third race for the year and only his second TdF he's managed to not only run last lead to Wiggins up a hilltop finish but then "find something in the tank" to push past both Wiggins and the reigning TdF winner in Evans to win the stage.

 

[blue gunslinger]

the way cadel warms up for a TT if he is not on juice (cannot be) should be on anti psychotics!!

 

[Vader]

Interesting article on CyclingNews today, with the Tan Man diplomatically questioning Wiggins about doping in light of the doping arrest on the rest day. Part of his response is quoted below:

I understand it from certain parts of the media but I don’t think I should sit here and justify everything I have done to the world. I’m not some shit rider who has come from nowhere. I’ve been three times Olympic champion on the track. I think people have to realise what kind of engine you need to win an Olympic gold medal as an Olympic pursuiter.
"I’ve been six times world champion, I’ve been fourth in the Tour de France, third in the Vuelta last year, it’s not like I’ve just come from nowhere. I’ve got an incredible pedigree behind me, junior world champion and an incredible rise through the ranks and so I don’t feel like I lost my cool, I just said what I think.

The reality is that he IS a very good rider, who could and definitely should be riding in the top 5 on GC. Unfortunately, as I see it, he's gone on the juice in order to put himself over the top as the #1 rider, in order to win the coveted Tour. Sorry Wiggo, I just don't buy it - I know you're a damn good rider and I know you've worked incredibly hard.. but that doesn't even go close to explaining the outrageous & blatant cheating that we all saw on that Stage 9 TT. Even at your very best, you're not as good at the TT as Cancellara, so how does a "clean" Wiggins annihilate him by close to a minute? Sorry, it just doesn't add up.

Wiggo, you could have been remembered as a great rider on the strength of your track record alone. Your record in road racing has always been good as well. But why did you have to ruin it all by going on the juice to get that extra 5% required to put you over the top of all your less-juiced competitors?