Doping Thread

[blackcat]

There is plenty of talk on CyclingNews about Sky, e.g.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=932887&postcount=1119

Who knows how much substance there is to it.

They're probably all doping, just Sky has access to better stuff.

NOT ALL

but all at the pointy end.

And sprinters need dope also, to get to the last 3km fresh, the last 30km anaerobic efforts. their "pointy end" is not the pointy end up the HC Queen Stage final ascent, but the best sprinters in the world. pointy end v pointy end. all relative.

No, not all dope. But dope aint confined to teams, or nations, or individuals. The French do, the Russians do, the shock horror, Australians do, the Brits. Yes, Anglophones do

Pointy end folks. this is pro sport, that works by one motto. Win.

Just like AFL goes by one motto. Win.

If you dont wanna dope, you are compromising on the Red Queen Effect metaphor, where all who are ambitious, are doping now, to stay treading water, or running on the treadmill (not moving). They are only moving ahead of the clean athletes. Of whom, their wont be many at Olys, AFL, Tour de France. Etc. different world to 30 years back in AFL. But this in the other sports, started more than half a century ago folks

Froome is the one for me

As Wiggins has said himself, it's not like he has done a "chinese swimmer" and come from the clouds.

However Froome's TT smashing FC and still dominating the mountains smells very fishy

wrong.

Individual Pursuit, is the weakest depth event, in Olympic sport. Almost like Synchronised swimming.

Think he ever stood a chance if Cipollini and Ullrich and Cancellara rode the IP on the boards. No way.

Froome has always been a roadie. Wiggins never so. See the chrono results from the first decade of his career. I posted on this over on cyclignews forums

but celebrate Wiggo,

and do not Not double negative pleonasm, celebrate Chris Froome. Everybit as worthy as anyone else in the race yay

dont hate hurt hit on Froome. The guy came out of a cycling backwater. (he lived in Saffa since he was 8yo). Celebrate Froome. Celebrate Wiggo. It aint an easy sport. The legs still gotta work.

Yeah once Froome took off on his 2nd wind as if by magic the suspicions started to creep back in.

but thats how long mtn ascents and Queen stages (this wasnt) work. Riders can recover, and then go again.

Have a quick look at froomes TT history, he has been mediocre for the last 4 seasons but suddenly smashed out a quick time today, and in the vuelta earlier this season.

2008 stage 4 tdf 29k, 33rd
2008 stage 16 tdf 53k, 16th
2009 stage 10 giro 62k, 34th
2009 stage 21 giro 14.5, 32nd
2010 stage 16 giro mountain tt, 39th
2011 stage 12 vuelta, 2nd

Not saying that he and sky are definitely doping, just seems a little crazy. Also not sure what the rest of the sky roster has to do with the argument.

those chronos in 08 in his first TdF as a 22/23yo were great indicators of potential.

Remember, a tt in the TdF for all but the contenders, is basically, a rest and recovery day. Go only as hard as you need to to prevent the time cut. Not au bloc

Where was this thread last year when Cadel was all of a sudden the best rider ?

someone has it right.

@jingoism. More jism, in jingoism

Cadel was doping last year just didn't make himself look like a blatant cheat and that is the problem.

Some juice is ok. Too much and the crackdown happens.

If they can't catch them with testing they'll search everybody connected to Sky just to make sure there's no juice around.

yep yep yep

David Moncoutie.

I dont believe Moncoutie rides that high into the Vuelta gc, on bread and water. Sorry.

I know a fair bit of inside mail. I picked Floyd up from Tullamarine when he came to the doping conference in Geelong before the worlds in 10

Lettuce be real here.

I often inadvertantly post phonically, (spell phonetically)

if I was a neuroscientist, might be some research area...


but if you intended this, BRILLIANT, utter genius. Still think brilliant if not intentional. But very meta wrt this thread.

lettuce be real, no figleaves, no bread, no water, no Jesus walking on water

 

[Papa Juggs]

yep yep yep

BMC bike messengers not to be seen this year I guess

I think the Sky guys will be feeling that effort last night juice or no juice.

 

[blackcat]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i...ood-attempt-convict-cheater-article-1.1113450

But before Armstrong left Italy, a doping control officer took a sample of the star cyclist's blood, which a laboratory test later revealed to have a 38.2% hematocrit ratio, a key marker of an athlete's endurance. The result was a little low for Armstrong, but it wasn't terribly unusual; hematocrit fluctuates, and in 2009 Armstrong's usually hovered between 40 and 43.​

What appeared strange is the spike in Armstrong's hematocrit score just a few weeks later. On June 16, when another blood sample was taken from Armstrong, his hematocrit was 45.7. That was high for Armstrong, and for most people.​

hehehe

BMC bike messengers not to be seen this year I guess

I think the Sky guys will be feeling that effort last night juice or no juice.

damn straight, dog pound.

I hear a story about Tyler Hamilton jumping around the hotel during the Tour, like he was partying on a load of meth, not riding 3000km in 3 weeks at 50kmph. They were jumping like mexican beans

 

[linda]

Interesting article on CyclingNews today, with the Tan Man diplomatically questioning Wiggins about doping in light of the doping arrest on the rest day. Part of his response is quoted below:

The reality is that he IS a very good rider, who could and definitely should be riding in the top 5 on GC. Unfortunately, as I see it, he's gone on the juice in order to put himself over the top as the #1 rider, in order to win the coveted Tour. Sorry Wiggo, I just don't buy it - I know you're a damn good rider and I know you've worked incredibly hard.. but that doesn't even go close to explaining the outrageous & blatant cheating that we all saw on that Stage 9 TT. Even at your very best, you're not as good at the TT as Cancellara, so how does a "clean" Wiggins annihilate him by close to a minute? Sorry, it just doesn't add up.

Wiggo, you could have been remembered as a great rider on the strength of your track record alone. Your record in road racing has always been good as well. But why did you have to ruin it all by going on the juice to get that extra 5% required to put you over the top of all your less-juiced competitors?

Absolute tripe and you being a moderator as well

 

[Caesar]

Absolute tripe and you being a moderator as well

The belief that everyone who is anyone in cycling is doped to the eyeballs isn't exactly an uncommon one. Not sure why mods can't hold it.

 

[Mick98]

Lol dope and cycling go hand in hand,sorry but it has been around for over a hundred years.
linda wake up and smell the roses FFS.
Lance Armstrong is as crooked as a dogs hind leg,Landis,Contador,Pantani,Fignon,Ullrich should all be stripped of their tour victories or should they?
How many tour winners have died young?Quite a few I would hazard to guess.
I have seen it first hand racing in Holland back in the early 90's

I was racing in a 100 km Kermesse pouring with rain,shocking conditions and a local Dutch rider lapped us twice and shortly after 50 kms his saddle broke of the seat pole and he raced the next 50 kms out of the saddle and lapped us for a third time without sitting down at all
My coach Michael Turtur an Olympic gold medalist said to us and I'll quote "Good ride boys,But you had no chance against that drugged up carnt"

I raced numerous criteriums and Kermesse and I thought I was flying,but I would get into a break with some locals and they would just ride me off the wheel like I had my brakes on.That ultimately discouraged me from the sport I loved.The first day we were in Holland a 21 year old cyclist died in his sleep from a heart attack caused by taking EPO.

But I'll still watch any cycling that is on tv,I suppose the old saying "once you have chain oil in your blood you're hooked"applies to me.

 

[blackcat]

The belief that everyone who is anyone in cycling is doped to the eyeballs isn't exactly an uncommon one. Not sure why mods can't hold it.

not everyone

but significant percentage.

And, it IS everyone, at pointy end

My coach Michael Turtur an Olympic gold medalist said to us and I'll quote "Good ride boys,But you had no chance against that drugged up carnt"

I raced numerous criteriums and Kermesse and I thought I was flying,but I would get into a break with some locals and they would just ride me off the wheel like I had my brakes on.That ultimately discouraged me from the sport I loved.The first day we were in Holland a 21 year old cyclist died in his sleep from a heart attack caused by taking EPO.

But I'll still watch any cycling that is on tv,I suppose the old saying "once you have chain oil in your blood you're hooked"applies to me.

eheheheh turtur

lances chum who paid he state dollars.

turtur was no cleanskin.

man, that dean woods coulda gone far, if the continent was Australia (re: sport epicentre)

 

[RU486]

Alot of misunderstanding ITT.

Yes the clear majority of riders incorporate PED's into their training regimes and thus most of the riders at the 'pointy end' have cycled PED's multiple times throughout their career. However, there is difference between being on and off. The controversy surrounding Wiggins and team at present is that they are currently 'on', meaning they are using PED's during the course of the tour hence why they have an unfair advantage over the peleton.

There is massive difference between using PED's in a training regime and using them during an event. They are exposing themselves at a much greater risk of detection, but as you can see the rewards speak for themself.

Mark Cavendish is one of the few big name riders I believe has a 'clean' career.

 

[blackcat]

wrong.

Cav is a bigtime doper. No questions.

 

[Papa Juggs]

The more people know about EPO the worse off this sport is.

So the real information about it will stay mostly quiet.

 

[No BS!!]

if there is ever a forum that can capture the essence of 'keyboard warrior', this thread and some on cyclingnews has done it.

as Wiggo says, get off your arse, work hard and achieve something in your life.

critics don't do either.

 

[Mick98]

if there is ever a forum that can capture the essence of 'keyboard warrior', this thread and some on cyclingnews has done it.

as Wiggo says, get off your arse, work hard and achieve something in your life.

critics don't do either.

And you have done what exactly?

 

[crazyman27]

if there is ever a forum that can capture the essence of 'keyboard warrior', this thread and some on cyclingnews has done it.

as Wiggo says, get off your arse, work hard and achieve something in your life.

critics don't do either.

Beauty of this is that all of these doped up cyclists are keeping the real hard workers from achieving anything.

 

[Mick98]

eheheheh turtur

lances chum who paid he state dollars.

turtur was no cleanskin.

man, that dean woods coulda gone far, if the continent was Australia (re: sport epicentre)

Do you have a Olympic gold medal?

I didn't think so.

 

[blue gunslinger]

I doubt anybody here does so I guess we had better close down the forum as opinions can be considered valid

 

[Papa Juggs]

This isn't a cycling forum and this thread was created to keep stage threads clean.

Can't believe Millar won that stage last night. I didn't bother watching.

Admitted doper so this one looks clear cut to me.

 

[linda]

Absolute tripe and you being a moderator as well

I supose I feel that moderators more thn others shouldnt say stupid stuff that has no evidence


Again Im totally biased as Wiggins was the person who got me into cycling albeit on the track initially and when I have spent the last few months hearing this crap its just quite annoying and as I said in a previous post there is no way Sky could dope as it would destroy British cycling for good

 

[Sigwald]

Again Im totally biased as Wiggins was the person who got me into cycling albeit on the track initially and when I have spent the last few months hearing this crap its just quite annoying and as I said in a previous post there is no way Sky could dope as it would destroy British cycling for good

Some questions are worth asking however:

• Why is Sky working with Geert Leinders, a proven doping doctor at Rabobank?
• Why is Sky working with Tim Kerrison, who supervised Thorpe when he showed "abnormal levels" of two banned substances?
• Why are these doctors advising Wiggins against publishing his Blood Passport Data? Or even having an independent scientist look at them?
• If researcher Jakob Moerkeberg was wrong in criticizing Wiggins' 2009 values, why have not more data been published to show where he erred?
• Why did Wiggins veto journalist Paul Kimmage travelling with Sky a few years back? And why would it have been okay if he had come after 8 days into the race?
• Why has Wiggins blocked respected anti-doping journalist Shane Stokes from his communications?

If you add to that the incredible leap in performance of the Sky team:

• Porte, Rogers, EBH controlling mountain stages by themselves without breaking a sweat as if they are Heras, Rubiera & Hamilton (4 Sky riders in a group of 7)
• Wiggins losing 12kg, which not only improved his climbing, but also paradoxically has given him extra power for invincible time trialling abilities
• Froome, a good domestique at best before, and without a contract before last year's Vuelta, making a quantum leap to climbing with the acceleration of Ricco, while time trialling almost as good as his boss
• Froome having almost no preparation before the TDF as he was struck down with a blood parasite, and yet he still performs as if he's had no more than a cold

All of this makes me suspicious, and as far as I'm concerned none of it is crap. Some of it might be easily explained, but until Sky and Wiggins give us the transparency they promised at their inception rather than PR-pep talk, I reserve the right to be sceptical.

Also, I have to say that the logic that Sky would not dope "as it would destroy British cycling for good" is nonsensical. It didn't stop David Millar. It didn't stop US Postal & Armstrong for the Amricans. Or Festina & Virenque for the French. Telekom & Ullrich for the Germans. Etc. It's as relevant as 'I wouldn't dope, because I had cancer.'

 

[Papa Juggs]

Hey look at that Cav can climb mountains

 

[blackcat]

Do you have a Olympic gold medal?ks went

I didn't think so.

nope. And the Australians were competing against a team pursuit team from america, that were using blood transfusions. Technically, not illegal at the time. But the thing was, in 1980, and without epo, and requiring the body to replenish itself, without any pharmaceutical aid, just putting the blood back in, 10 days out from LA, meant they had to ride in training, a pint of blood down, so their efforts in training were going to be constrained.

I think the yanks went down 3, early in the 4th km. Far from being an advantage, coulda been a hindrance. I dont think Davis Phinney did it for the mens road. But I think the womens road might been on blood transfusions. Connie Carpenter Phinney won gold I think. I saw her in Geelong at worlds. She was talking to Kathy Watt. 1980 rr gold v 1984 chrono gold.

y

I supose I feel that moderators more thn others shouldnt say stupid stuff that has no evidence

your premise is completely off-base linda.

Drug taking and cycling, do not a bad person make. We are not criticising individuals. I think most individuals would prefer to keep out of sticking crap in their body.

Dont conflate "self" and a mirror of yourself, with criticism of a culture wide phenomenon, that is not alleging the individual, is lesser of ethical or moral disposition. That is not the point. The problem when some defend riders, they are really defending oneself, their view of the world, their requirement that everything is clean and pure.

This is not about a natural justice, and the right for a rider for defence. This is not court of law, that seeks to deny a persons liberty.

This is about disabusing the myths and misconceptions on what is occurring in the sport.

Some questions are worth asking however:

Why was thorpe working with mr stanozolol in my secutiry safe in lake birley griffin Gennadi toureski.

Froome had talent. I started this thread http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=15116&page=7

Froome is more "genuine" than Wiggo. Both are talented. Both on gear. Does not make them lesser individuals. It is what it is.

Ferrari coached Mick Rogers, and Armstrong said he thought Rogers could win the Tour. I guess that Ferrari showed Armstrong Rogers' testing numbers.

Great talents all. Porte has the record, beat Cadel Evans, of the Mt Wellington hill climb.

 

[linda]

Some questions are worth asking however:

• Why is Sky working with Geert Leinders, a proven doping doctor at Rabobank?
• Why is Sky working with Tim Kerrison, who supervised Thorpe when he showed "abnormal levels" of two banned substances?
• Why are these doctors advising Wiggins against publishing his Blood Passport Data? Or even having an independent scientist look at them?
• If researcher Jakob Moerkeberg was wrong in criticizing Wiggins' 2009 values, why have not more data been published to show where he erred?
• Why did Wiggins veto journalist Paul Kimmage travelling with Sky a few years back? And why would it have been okay if he had come after 8 days into the race?
• Why has Wiggins blocked respected anti-doping journalist Shane Stokes from his communications?

If you add to that the incredible leap in performance of the Sky team:

• Porte, Rogers, EBH controlling mountain stages by themselves without breaking a sweat as if they are Heras, Rubiera & Hamilton (4 Sky riders in a group of 7)
• Wiggins losing 12kg, which not only improved his climbing, but also paradoxically has given him extra power for invincible time trialling abilities
• Froome, a good domestique at best before, and without a contract before last year's Vuelta, making a quantum leap to climbing with the acceleration of Ricco, while time trialling almost as good as his boss
• Froome having almost no preparation before the TDF as he was struck down with a blood parasite, and yet he still performs as if he's had no more than a cold

All of this makes me suspicious, and as far as I'm concerned none of it is crap. Some of it might be easily explained, but until Sky and Wiggins give us the transparency they promised at their inception rather than PR-pep talk, I reserve the right to be sceptical.


Also, I have to say that the logic that Sky would not dope "as it would destroy British cycling for good" is nonsensical. It didn't stop David Millar. It didn't stop US Postal & Armstrong for the Amricans. Or Festina & Virenque for the French. Telekom & Ullrich for the Germans. Etc. It's as relevant as 'I wouldn't dope, because I had cancer.'

I cant answer those questions you pose but Im pretty sure Sky could quite easily and have done and it simply wouldnt be allowed to happen

On the last bit when Millar was caught British cycling was almost non existant .It was only arouund the start of the century we started to get some decent track cyclists through like Wiggins Manning Hayles .When Wiggins won gold in 04 it hardly raised a mention but from then on with the track cycling GB team being dominant and the advent of Cav on the road the sport has gone into orbit .The man behind all the success has been Brailsford so both track and road are linked in the eyes of the public and like i said any form of cheating would destroy all this .

Maybe Im biased or naive but whats good about Britain is we form orderly queues and dont forget or forgive cheats

 

[linda]

y

your premise is completely off-base linda.

Drug taking and cycling, do not a bad person make. We are not criticising individuals. I think most individuals would prefer to keep out of sticking crap in their body.

Dont conflate "self" and a mirror of yourself, with criticism of a culture wide phenomenon, that is not alleging the individual, is lesser of ethical or moral disposition. That is not the point. The problem when some defend riders, they are really defending oneself, their view of the world, their requirement that everything is clean and pure.

This is not about a natural justice, and the right for a rider for defence. This is not court of law, that seeks to deny a persons liberty.



This is about disabusing the myths and misconceptions on what is occurring in the sport.

I just like to trust my sporting heroes and sometimes I talk rubbish just see some of my posts on the cricket forum

 

[Papa Juggs]

Not everybody can dope all the time.

The costs involved in staying stocked up with the best gear and the supply problems during the peak season stop them all having it at once.

The best teams with the money can buy the good EPO, get their sponsors seen and their riders earning.

I think this is why entire teams seem to be coming and going up/down more than riders.

BMC is out, Sky is in.

 

[Freakie]

if there is ever a forum that can capture the essence of 'keyboard warrior', this thread and some on cyclingnews has done it.

as Wiggo says, get off your arse, work hard and achieve something in your life.

critics don't do either.

I have a world championship medal and been part of an EPO study, am I qualified to comment?

 

[blackcat]

a

I just like to trust my sporting heroes and sometimes I talk rubbish just see some of my posts on the cricket forum

pls accept my apologies linda. I think I went on this damuscene conversion, and after feeling betrayed, I attempt to dispell, and disabuse the myths and misinformation. And, this says more about me, not you eh.

Brecht "Pity the country that needs heroes"

srry

I have a world championship medal and been part of an EPO study, am I qualified to comment?

I have had in depth convos with vinnicombe too. great bloke.